Salvation and Belief

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions' started by muhammad_isa, Jul 17, 2019.

  1. Further clarification:- For me, Merton suggests/implies that our "soul" will remain in the world of "self-power" (hell?) until such time as it recognises the efficacy of Grace. Will any "soul" remain in self-power forever? Possibly, our "will" could be that free.
     
  2. Well, Faith is a wonderful thing.

    Whether I am heading for the Pure Land
    Or heading for hell
    All is in Amida's hands.
    Namu-amida-butsu!
     
  3. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Active Member

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    Really?
    Is that the same as a Christian saying "all is in Jesus' hands"?
    ..just asking..

    The problem, as I see it, is that anybody can claim that a particular human who has lived, is G-d.
    ..and there's me thinking that G-d created everybody :)
     
  4. Well, some seem to see problems where others see none.

    "same as"? No, one looks to Jesus, another looks to Amida. (Replace either/or with both/and)

    Personally I am quite happy to think that we are all the "creation" of G!d/Reality-as-is. Both words ultimately incomprehensible.

    EDIT:-
    personally I'm not claiming that any "particular" human was an "incarnation" of God (as such) in any unique sense. This is why I choose not to identify as a Christian.
     
    Thomas likes this.
  5. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    As much as the Moslem says"In shā'Allāh" I would have thought ... (In that I understand that to be an 'If Allah wills' kind of statement?)
     
  6. One more post, then I'll take a break. I'm up to my eyeballs.

    I look for correspondences. Similar, not quite the same. I find it adds clarity.

    So the above........correspondences, not quite the same.

    1. Not seeking any reward.

    2. Loving G!d for "His" own sake and for no other reason.

    3. The cry of someone somewhere, I can't remember who or where, that even if G!d cast him into hell he would still love Him.

    4. The "zens" who say that zen "enriches" no-one.

    5. The little phrase, "letting go and letting God".

    6. Faith.

    7. Trust.

    8. Grace.

    9. That the true nature of "religion" is to give thanks. Not to gain "salvation" or earn a passmark.

    10. Abraham and his son.

    11. Any more?
     
  7. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Active Member

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    They were both human beings .. although many Christians equate Jesus with G-d.
    That is why they might think that "in G-d's hands" and "in Jesus' hands" is one and the same.
    ..but what authority has Amida got that makes you say "I'm in Amida's hands"?

    I get that .. You consider G-d as incomprehensible, and you are quite happy to follow a person that seems to make sense.
    ..authority not being an issue. Is that right?
    If so, how can you call it "a faith"? That's what I don't understand :confused:
     
  8. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Active Member

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    Yes .. if Allah wills.
    Allah is the Arabic for G-d. FYI, Arab Christians refer to G-d as Allah, which proves my point.
    ..and yes .. we are all in G-d's hands :)
     
  9. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    Yes, in God's hand, in Amida's hands, in Jesus' hands, same thing — a figure of speech inferring faith and trust.

    What point? If we were playing tennis, I'd suggest Christians were calling God Allah before Muslims, and understood that God is Three and God is One ... Islam never seemed able to get its head round the idea that the Trinity is not tritheism.

    Quite.
     
  10. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    I would consider anyone who think's God is comprehensible, is suffering from a discreet idolatry.

    Certainly we can assert Divine Qualities, else God would not only be incomprehensible, but irrational and illogical, and any belief would be pointless because God might decide differently tomorrow ... but the wise understand that God as such is beyond all categories and all qualification.
     
  11. Bhaktajan II

    Bhaktajan II Active Member

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    Do you mean anyone who think's God is discernible.

    yet certainly almost all of western Scriptures are not fully comprehensive.
     
  12. Bhaktajan II

    Bhaktajan II Active Member

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    God is the source of all categories and all qualification.

    We are stuck with wading through all categories and all qualifications.
     
  13. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    No, not at all. Different thing.

    Well there's an opinion I don't subscribe to :D
     
  14. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Active Member

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    Strange, 3 being equivalent to 1. Your original point was "if Allah wills" is the same as
    "we are in insert your human being here's hands" are equivalent.
    Not to me, they are not :)

    Jesus, peace be with him, professed that G-d is One i.e. the shema
    There is no reporting of him saying that he denounced it, and said that he was one part out of 3.
    Philosophically it might have meaning, but making it a cornerstone of faith is purely deception, imo

    Jesus is not an anarchist .. nor was he Greek or Roman :)
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2019
  15. Bhaktajan II

    Bhaktajan II Active Member

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    He who think's God is comprehensible has comprehended God via scriptures.

    I am I correct Thomas?
     
  16. Bhaktajan II

    Bhaktajan II Active Member

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    Dear M_I,

    "Strange"? What is strange is that you have an opinion ... and your conclusion is "Strange".

    "if Allah wills" is the same as "the Taxi Driver will or will not get into a bad accident" ---this to me is equivalent.

    There are real life reasons to begin a prayer and see the mercy.

    "if Allah wills" is the same as "the gun toting robber will or will not shoot me" ---this to me is equivalent.

    IMO, this needs be practiced as a devotional meditation.
     
  17. Bhaktajan II

    Bhaktajan II Active Member

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    Dear Mt T,
    I said, "almost all of western Scriptures are not fully comprehensive".

    Mt T said, "anyone who think's God is comprehensible, is suffering"

    NOW,

    I will ask, Is comprehension your point?

    As an outsider, the concept of God has not been touched upon...to such a degree that now a triad is whirling around...
     
  18. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Active Member

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    My conclusion is strange?
    Well, we all see things differently, I suppose.

    Personally, I find it hard to imagine that G-d would appear as a human-being.
    Unless of course, you think that it is possible that G-d wants to confuse us.
    ..or maybe G-d wants us to fight over which human-being might be G-d and which one isn't :D
     
  19. Bhaktajan II

    Bhaktajan II Active Member

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    Does not idolatry = to have God as discernible? [see with one's eyes]

    IMO as a Hindu idolatry is stupid nonsense!

    The Statuary in the Hindu Temple [aka the Murti in the Mandira] is NOT a idol
    ---as expressed by Thomas and muhammad_isa ---there may be
    countless surrogates for the western intellectual's definition of
    [western traditions] idolatry
    ...was it Marco Polo who said, "variety is the spice of life"?

    Grave stones and City halls have busts to remind the likeness of specific indivisible individual personas.

    As it is above ...
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2019
  20. Bhaktajan II

    Bhaktajan II Active Member

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    "Strange" = 1 word and 1 syllable.

    Later:
    "Well, we all see things differently, I suppose." = 8 words and 12 syllables + 2 commas.

    Thank you for your consideration.
     

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