An introduction.

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions' started by od19g6, Nov 20, 2019.

  1. Arif Ghamiq

    Arif Ghamiq Active Member

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    I really don't go for race, sex or gender superiority & inferiority, but if I did it would seem to me that the inferior would need the head start - not the superior and that the superior would be the dominant ones - not the inferior.
     
  2. Ahanu

    Ahanu Well-Known Member

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    What a game we play with interpreting words and actions, especially in today's outrage culture . . . The clip here demonstrates our culture's attitude.

    Roman: "I'm sorry. Excuse me. I see two sisters standing. Why are the sisters standing and the brothers sitting?"

    Person 1: "If we want to sit we can ask."

    Roman: "Well, you ladies got to speak up for yourselves."

    Person 2: "This ain't forty years ago."

    Roman: "There's no statutes and limitations on, uhm, chivalry."

    Person 1: "That's gendered and sexist."

    Roman: "And polite."

    Person 2: "And patronizing."

    Roman: "And polite."
    Yet you have no objection to females being educated first. You don't describe it as sexist and patronizing. Here, @Cino, enjoy this cherry:

    [​IMG]


    I agree.

    Abdu'l-Baha reportedly said women can do non-traditional roles (such as being a mechanic, engineer, or leader) just as well as any man. Please keep in mind I'm not quoting what he actually wrote. Anything he reportedly said isn't Baha'i scripture. Let's read what he reportedly said one more time: "The woman has greater moral courage than the man; she has also special gifts which enable her to govern in moments of danger and crisis. If necessary she can become a warrior." A warrior is a non-traditional role for women, isn't it? This was answered in the previous post. I think we're on the same page regarding this point.

    Sorry, but the Baha'i Faith doesn't support the patriarchy so prevalent in our society, which treats men and women unequally (e.g., men in general have more income than women in our current society ). As Moojan Momen points out, in the 1980s a female sovereign and female prime minister ruled Britain, but patriarchy still prevailed, providing us with an example of how simply replacing men with women does not necessarily make significant changes in elevating feminine qualities in our world:

    Abdu'l-Baha reportedly made the following remark upon his arrival in New York City:


    But how does this look in practice? How do we elevate feminine qualities? Momen cites decentralization as one example of how we can increase feminine qualities in our society, and it is one of the features of the Bahá’í Administrative Order:

    The remedy must involve the transformation of our animal nature. You're overlooking how the Baha'i Administrative Order is structured in comparison to, say, the inner workings of Genghis Khan's empire.

     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2019
  3. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic)

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    Thanks, I do enjoy fruit (and I got your reference to cherry pickiing)! For my thoughts on this, please read my reply to @RJM Corbet, he raised the same point, whether challenging privilege is the same as disadvantaging the privilege holders.

    If a group of men get to have the last say, then it is patriarchy. I don't see much room to maneuver here.

    Maybe your concern is preventing another Ghengis Khan, but mine is preventing a throwback to the bad old ways of power resting in men's hands by religious decree.

    I'm not Baha'i, so I don't share your conviction that the Baha'i administrative order is divinely blessed and therefore proof against the problems that plagued all previous attempts at solving this issue by restricting top leadership to men. I see is the result: Women are not allowed to serve as members of the Baha'i Universal House of Justice. And to me, this doesn't look promising, and the arguments I hear that justify this are, to my ears, reiterations of what every previous male-controlled religious hierarchy was arguing to preserve the status quo.

    In general, I get the sense that we all had our say on the topic of male privilege, and I don't anticipate anyone coming up with radically new ways of looking at it.

    I want to stress once more that this is not a topic unique to the Baha'i Faith, in my opinion, but that all major religions are struggling with the problematic legacy of doctrinally enshrined male primacy.

    I also feel a bit sorry that @od19g6 seems to have left the discussion.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2019
  4. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic)

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    Well, there is this concept called "intersectionality"... which can be applied to understanding situations where one person is a member of several groups with different privilege (dark-skinned male Irish driver vs. light-skinned female English driver)... but given how we are already heading away from the topic of "what do you think of the Baha'i faith", opening up the discussion on intersectionality should happen in the "Politics and Society" section of the forum, I suggest.
     
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  5. RabbiO

    RabbiO הרב יונה בן זכריה

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    @Cino -

    It may be that the OP, having joined almost simultaneously several forums, with the same introduction thread, just hasn’t made it back to this one yet.
     
  6. StevePame

    StevePame Administrator Staff Member

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    They’ll be back when they realize that we are small but mighty!
     
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  7. Ahanu

    Ahanu Well-Known Member

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    Hello Thomas,

    Your reasoning above strikes me as quite a radical interpretation of what Abdu'l-Baha reportedly said, my interpretation of it, and why there is an all-male Universal House of Justice; your reasoning above is not too far removed from the type of critiques we find in Mary Daly's works, in which she views the incarnation as sexist and misogynistic because, according to her reasoning, it boils down to the "usurpation of female power" through "archetypal rape" under the reign of a Christian God who is inherently patriarchal within the theology of orthodox Christianity. Here's Daly in her own words:

    Here's a brief summary of Mary Daly's ideas:


    Now I want to be clear. Do I support Daly's work? No. The above simply shows the incarnation you view as a "radical rethink of our gender politics" is actually viewed as sexist and misogynistic by some . . .
     
  8. Ahanu

    Ahanu Well-Known Member

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    A lot of examples from the corporate world and religious institutions. But you have yet to mention any specific examples of how the Universal House of Justice has undermined the equality of men and women.
     
  9. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic)

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    By constituting itself only from men, based on a ruling formulated by men.

    I'm not Baha'i, Ahanu. I respect your faith, and I enjoy your company on this forum a lot. I stated my criticism, and went into detail when you asked me about it, but it's getting a bit repetitive. I'll accept that you think the house of justice is an equal opportunity outfit, and it would be nice if you accepted that I think otherwise.
     
  10. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    To me belief and faith is such when apologists are boxed into a corner their reasoning cannot be discussed amicably as it so dramatically counters their paradigm..I see this applying the gamut from religionists to atheists.
     
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  11. Ahanu

    Ahanu Well-Known Member

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    How is this relevant to the topic? Nobody is being unfriendly here.
     
  12. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    My comment was spurred by the discussion, they don't always pertain directly.

    This the ebb and flow of the thread, I am often off in an oxbow lake and not in the main stream of consciousness.
     
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  13. od19g6

    od19g6 New Member

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    Hi cino.

    I know I've not been on the forum for awhile, I was just doing some research.

    Tell you what, we'll start the conversation again tomorrow.
     
  14. Ahanu

    Ahanu Well-Known Member

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    Well, mind if I drag you in since I'm boring Cino? I need a dance partner. :p

    The Qur'an seems to suggest some kind of hierarchy or superiority between males and females from a certain perspective. It could be a social one, an economic one. How do you view Qur'an 4.34 and 2.228?
     
  15. od19g6

    od19g6 New Member

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    Hi cino.

    I know it's been awhile and I haven't been on the forum.

    I just be real brief.

    I know that you had concerns about the future of a baha'i majority and and concerns about fanaticism. But once again I can assure that fanaticism will never happen. It's too many safe guards in the baha'i faith that protects it.

    I will leave these two here. Have a good one.



     
  16. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic)

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    Thanks, and have a good one, too!

    It is very commendable that there are already some safeguards, so why not add more by removing the laws which you don't follow anyway, and would be troublesome in the hands of fanatics, now when the religion is still young and easier to change? That would be a really good safeguard.
     
  17. Truthseeker9

    Truthseeker9 Member

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    In the Baha'i Faith there is a covenant where the next leadership is in writing. There are those like Remey that have tried to assert leadership against the covenant though they know better so they have violated unity. They are invalid. Theirs is not a valid Baha'i organization. We don't care about differences in opinion but we do not recognize unlawful attempts to seize power.
     
  18. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic)

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    Yes, I got that. I was replying to someone stating that there are no Baha'i sects.

    I have no idea whether the other Bahai groups view the house of justice as lawful, but my guess would be, that they would express the exact same sentiment you do, from their point of view, and say that you broke the covenant...

    Edited to add: Is it about power, then, or about faith in Baha'u'llah?
     
  19. Truthseeker9

    Truthseeker9 Member

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    I know we'll never agree about women not being on the Universal House of Justice. But there is no reason to believe that the Universal House of Justice will discriminate against women because the equality of women to men with the principle of the equality firmly established. The running of the Universal House of Justice is not affected by the fact that they are all men. For the Baha'is we believe that their decisions on Baha'i law are inspired by God no matter what the sex, so there is no difference in what the gender is. Abdu'l-Baha has made it clear that the reason the UHJ is all men is not because of any inequality but for only pragmatic or wisdom reasons, those He did not specify what the reasons were. I don't know why He didn't specify why, I wish He did, but I can't judge Abdu'l-Baha, He is the designated interpreter of Baha'u'llah and to doubt the interpretation of Abdu'l-Baha is to disbelieve in Baha'u'llah.

    As to non-Baha'is not inheriting, this is only the default position because Baha'is can specify the inheritance however they want to and they are supposed to. But I don't expect people who are not Baha'is to ever agree

    The same is true of all Baha'i laws. There's no way for Baha'is to convince others about those laws if people disagree. Nobody becomes a Baha'i by examining the laws to become Baha'is. People become Baha'is for other reasons and then they can accept all the laws and then they may still have doubts of or not understand why.

    Another thing to consider about Baha'i law is that it is based on the understandings and culture of all the world, not just Americans. All laws through all religions are based on the conditions of time and place through all history. The laws are not based on absolute truth but on the conditions of man at the time and what mankind is ready for at that time. I'm also suspect than some details of the application of Baha'i law by the Universal House of Justice will differ in different countries because of the diversity of mankind and we believe in unity in diversity. It is clear in the notes in the Aqdas that some details of those laws will be decided by the Universal House of Justice and that can change over time and in different places. Baha'u'llah I believe deliberately left some things vague so the Universal House of Justice can do that.
     
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  20. Truthseeker9

    Truthseeker9 Member

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    I don't care if they think that we broke the covenant. The fact is that the situation is unambiguous if you look at it through the eye of justice. All views are not equally valid. I don't ascribe to the view that all opinions are equally valid. The covenant is a mechanism to establish unity as much as humanly possible. I believe in time all these covenant-breakers will eventually disappear. After Remey, they couldn't even agree on what the next "Guardian" would be. It broke into smaller groups. You'll never agree with this but all these covenant-breaker groups are spiritually invalid.
     
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