An introduction.

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions' started by od19g6, Nov 20, 2019.

  1. Arif Ghamiq

    Arif Ghamiq Active Member

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    I really don't go for race, sex or gender superiority & inferiority, but if I did it would seem to me that the inferior would need the head start - not the superior and that the superior would be the dominant ones - not the inferior.
     
  2. Ahanu

    Ahanu Well-Known Member

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    What a game we play with interpreting words and actions, especially in today's outrage culture . . . The clip here demonstrates our culture's attitude.

    Roman: "I'm sorry. Excuse me. I see two sisters standing. Why are the sisters standing and the brothers sitting?"

    Person 1: "If we want to sit we can ask."

    Roman: "Well, you ladies got to speak up for yourselves."

    Person 2: "This ain't forty years ago."

    Roman: "There's no statutes and limitations on, uhm, chivalry."

    Person 1: "That's gendered and sexist."

    Roman: "And polite."

    Person 2: "And patronizing."

    Roman: "And polite."
    Yet you have no objection to females being educated first. You don't describe it as sexist and patronizing. Here, @Cino, enjoy this cherry:

    [​IMG]


    I agree.

    Abdu'l-Baha reportedly said women can do non-traditional roles (such as being a mechanic, engineer, or leader) just as well as any man. Please keep in mind I'm not quoting what he actually wrote. Anything he reportedly said isn't Baha'i scripture. Let's read what he reportedly said one more time: "The woman has greater moral courage than the man; she has also special gifts which enable her to govern in moments of danger and crisis. If necessary she can become a warrior." A warrior is a non-traditional role for women, isn't it? This was answered in the previous post. I think we're on the same page regarding this point.

    Sorry, but the Baha'i Faith doesn't support the patriarchy so prevalent in our society, which treats men and women unequally (e.g., men in general have more income than women in our current society ). As Moojan Momen points out, in the 1980s a female sovereign and female prime minister ruled Britain, but patriarchy still prevailed, providing us with an example of how simply replacing men with women does not necessarily make significant changes in elevating feminine qualities in our world:

    Abdu'l-Baha reportedly made the following remark upon his arrival in New York City:


    But how does this look in practice? How do we elevate feminine qualities? Momen cites decentralization as one example of how we can increase feminine qualities in our society, and it is one of the features of the Bahá’í Administrative Order:

    The remedy must involve the transformation of our animal nature. You're overlooking how the Baha'i Administrative Order is structured in comparison to, say, the inner workings of Genghis Khan's empire.

     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2019
  3. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic)

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    Thanks, I do enjoy fruit (and I got your reference to cherry pickiing)! For my thoughts on this, please read my reply to @RJM Corbet, he raised the same point, whether challenging privilege is the same as disadvantaging the privilege holders.

    If a group of men get to have the last say, then it is patriarchy. I don't see much room to maneuver here.

    Maybe your concern is preventing another Ghengis Khan, but mine is preventing a throwback to the bad old ways of power resting in men's hands by religious decree.

    I'm not Baha'i, so I don't share your conviction that the Baha'i administrative order is divinely blessed and therefore proof against the problems that plagued all previous attempts at solving this issue by restricting top leadership to men. I see is the result: Women are not allowed to serve as members of the Baha'i Universal House of Justice. And to me, this doesn't look promising, and the arguments I hear that justify this are, to my ears, reiterations of what every previous male-controlled religious hierarchy was arguing to preserve the status quo.

    In general, I get the sense that we all had our say on the topic of male privilege, and I don't anticipate anyone coming up with radically new ways of looking at it.

    I want to stress once more that this is not a topic unique to the Baha'i Faith, in my opinion, but that all major religions are struggling with the problematic legacy of doctrinally enshrined male primacy.

    I also feel a bit sorry that @od19g6 seems to have left the discussion.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2019
  4. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic)

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    Well, there is this concept called "intersectionality"... which can be applied to understanding situations where one person is a member of several groups with different privilege (dark-skinned male Irish driver vs. light-skinned female English driver)... but given how we are already heading away from the topic of "what do you think of the Baha'i faith", opening up the discussion on intersectionality should happen in the "Politics and Society" section of the forum, I suggest.
     
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  5. RabbiO

    RabbiO הרב יונה בן זכריה

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    @Cino -

    It may be that the OP, having joined almost simultaneously several forums, with the same introduction thread, just hasn’t made it back to this one yet.
     
  6. StevePame

    StevePame Administrator Staff Member

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    They’ll be back when they realize that we are small but mighty!
     
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  7. Ahanu

    Ahanu Well-Known Member

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    Hello Thomas,

    Your reasoning above strikes me as quite a radical interpretation of what Abdu'l-Baha reportedly said, my interpretation of it, and why there is an all-male Universal House of Justice; your reasoning above is not too far removed from the type of critiques we find in Mary Daly's works, in which she views the incarnation as sexist and misogynistic because, according to her reasoning, it boils down to the "usurpation of female power" through "archetypal rape" under the reign of a Christian God who is inherently patriarchal within the theology of orthodox Christianity. Here's Daly in her own words:

    Here's a brief summary of Mary Daly's ideas:


    Now I want to be clear. Do I support Daly's work? No. The above simply shows the incarnation you view as a "radical rethink of our gender politics" is actually viewed as sexist and misogynistic by some . . .
     
  8. Ahanu

    Ahanu Well-Known Member

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    A lot of examples from the corporate world and religious institutions. But you have yet to mention any specific examples of how the Universal House of Justice has undermined the equality of men and women.
     
  9. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic)

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    By constituting itself only from men, based on a ruling formulated by men.

    I'm not Baha'i, Ahanu. I respect your faith, and I enjoy your company on this forum a lot. I stated my criticism, and went into detail when you asked me about it, but it's getting a bit repetitive. I'll accept that you think the house of justice is an equal opportunity outfit, and it would be nice if you accepted that I think otherwise.
     
  10. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    To me belief and faith is such when apologists are boxed into a corner their reasoning cannot be discussed amicably as it so dramatically counters their paradigm..I see this applying the gamut from religionists to atheists.
     
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  11. Ahanu

    Ahanu Well-Known Member

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    How is this relevant to the topic? Nobody is being unfriendly here.
     
  12. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    My comment was spurred by the discussion, they don't always pertain directly.

    This the ebb and flow of the thread, I am often off in an oxbow lake and not in the main stream of consciousness.
     
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  13. od19g6

    od19g6 New Member

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    Hi cino.

    I know I've not been on the forum for awhile, I was just doing some research.

    Tell you what, we'll start the conversation again tomorrow.
     
  14. Ahanu

    Ahanu Well-Known Member

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    Well, mind if I drag you in since I'm boring Cino? I need a dance partner. :p

    The Qur'an seems to suggest some kind of hierarchy or superiority between males and females from a certain perspective. It could be a social one, an economic one. How do you view Qur'an 4.34 and 2.228?
     

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