Last Things

Discussion in 'Belief and Spirituality' started by Cino, Mar 4, 2020.

  1. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Search, be your own guru.

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    Did he ever clarified the reasons why he hardens the heart and blinds their eyes of some to his glory? He does not give us a chance that is why we are atheists. And that is my peeve.
     
  2. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Active Member

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    No, this is NOT a correct understanding.
    The purpose of scripture / revelation is to guide "the layman" and warn of the consequences of ignoring truth.
    It is not supposed to be a word-for-word scientific document :)

    This means that they include examples .. parables .. similes .. idioms.

    ..we also have to try and imagine what the people at the time understood from those scriptures.
    Language evolves [ eg shakespeare's prose ], and we also have many translations and so on.

    G-d says the disbelievers are "deaf, dumb and blind" .. it means spiritually, and not literally .. no?
    In turn we can realise that the consequences of turning away from a scripture we don't understand (or dislike), means that we are not FOCUSSED on its message .. turning away from it.
    .. arguing against it etc.

    That is our dilemna. We need to soften our hearts with good-deeds, and remove the stains of hatred,
    through perhaps decades of tribal strife .. not easy..

    ..but don't say that G-d does not "give us a chance" .. He most surely does :)
    ..even the feeding of God's creatures without hope of worldly reward [ i.e. with a pure intention ]
    can "move mountains"
     
  3. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Search, be your own guru.

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    We can do all that without the need of a God. But since people bring in their Gods, we are not able to do it. That is our dilemma. You say ' not easy', I would say impossible with Gods in the equation.
     
  4. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Active Member

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    A poor excuse, ignoring the rest of my post.

    I have a daughter who has married into a Sikh family.
    We all acknowledge that our "God" is the same.
    The One and Only God, that is understood by Christians, Muslims and Sikhs.

    ..but not you .. you have to blame everything on that "God" ?
     
  5. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic)

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    Speaking for myself: I'll take responsibility for my choices.

    Neither out of fear of nor desire for any gods.

    Nothing to do with blame.
     
    Craz likes this.
  6. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Active Member

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    What's nothing to do with blame?
    @Aupmanyav says "He does not give us a chance that is why we are atheists"

    while quoting that the Qur'an says literally "Allah has hardened his heart and blinded his eyes"
    That is the point of discussion.

    Muslims do NOT believe that Allah is a person.
    ..so Allah CAUSING this to happen means what exactly?
    The Qur'an also says that Allah wrongs nobody .. it is mankind that wrong themselves.

    This is a classic case of that .. blaming Allah [ a literal verse of Qur'an ] for why he chooses to disbelieve.
    ..whether he chooses consciously, subconciously, with scientific reason, due to personal desire..
    ..or any other reason.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2020
  7. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic)

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    Remember that we godless people don't have any gods we could blame. So your understanding of @Aupmanyav's post likely misses the point completely.

    I have to say however, that it is always a dicey strategy, to quote scripture as an outsider, even if it seems to convey what one wants to say.

    What you are experiencing here may be similar to the frustration of an atheist scientists when believers pick up some theory, about cosmic origins, say, with the intent to make it accomodate the supernatural.

    As long as we can all keep our good humor about these ... unorthodox ... readings, we're good, in my book.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2020
  8. OrtaYol

    OrtaYol Active Member

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    5:13 - So for their breaking their compact We cursed them and made their hearts hard, they perverting words from their meanings


    This is the only time God directly "hardens the heart", it is directed at a particular group of people and a clear reason is given. All other mentions are cases of peoples hearts being hardened through their own actions.
     
  9. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Search, be your own guru.

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    People have different views. What is wrong with that?
    And your sikh son-in-law hardly understands his own religion. Guru Nanak was a monist and not a monotheist.
    Yeah, that is the point of discussion. Why? There is no explanation. Very arbitrary.
    What compact? I never had any compact with Allah.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2020
  10. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Active Member

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    My son-in-law was brought up and educated in the UK.
    It is YOU who doesn't seem to understand "the point" of religion.

    I know you don't "believe" in God, but why should you think that God wants us all to
    bicker amongst ourselves, arrogantly claiming to "know all" ?

    We are all individuals, and our religious convictions are between
    ourselves and God. We don't have to answer to ANYbody.
    ..particularly Gurus and Sheiks :rolleyes:
     
  11. arthra

    arthra Baha'i

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    Baha'is in my experience tend to view these "....last things...end days..." as the end of cycles. As to "Judgement Day" the view would be recognition of the Manifestation for the day:

    "In the Bahá’í interpretation, the coming of each Manifestation of God is a Day of Judgment, but the coming of the supreme Manifestation of Bahá’u’lláh is the great Day of Judgment for the world cycle in which we are living. The trumpet blast of which Christ and Muḥammad and many other prophets speak is the call of the Manifestation, which is sounded for all who are in heaven and on earth—the embodied and the disembodied. The meeting with God, through His Manifestation, is, for those who desire to meet Him, the gateway to the Paradise of knowing and loving Him, and living in love with all His creatures. Those, on the other hand, who prefer their own way to God’s way, as revealed by the Manifestation, thereby consign themselves to the hell of selfishness, error and enmity."

    https://reference.bahai.org/en/t/o/BNE/bne-175.html
     
  12. OrtaYol

    OrtaYol Active Member

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    Allah has set the condition, certain behaviours will have certain results. If you have not made a compact then the verse does not apply to you. So if your heart is hardened it is your own doing.
     
  13. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Search, be your own guru.

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    Does not he? That is why in Tanakh or in Injeel or in Quran, he warned, "Worship me only, no other God, and accept (such a such person as my representative and no other), otherwise those who worship me will make your life unbearable, and after your death I will do that (various ways to eternally torture a non-believer or his progeny upto third or fourth generation).
    Can I do anything which Allah does not intend to happen? The hardening is from Allah and unjust.
     
  14. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Active Member

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    Pretty meaningless..
    Can you go out into the street and kill somebody? .. yes.

    ..and then you say that God "intended it to happen", so you are not to blame?
    Your arguments are nonsense.

    No .. playing games with "inshAllah" does not absolve people from blame.
    ..so .. what is your reason for disbelief?
    Have you got one, or did Allah Almighty create you as an automaton with no intelligence?
     
  15. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Search, be your own guru.

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    It does not concern just my action. It also concerns the life of another person. Sure, Allah will punish me on the day of judgment, but what about the person whom I killed? Why would Allah not care about the life of that person? Just to prove a point that I had free-will?
     
  16. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Active Member

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    That's your reason for disbelief?
    Because we have been given responsibility to "sort out our own business" ?

    You are implying that you think that Allah SWT should not have done that. That it is immoral to let somebody die or suffer.
    ..but it is not Allah who would have caused it .. that would have been you.

    The universe is as it is, whether you agree with mankind having authority and responsibility or not.
    Nothing changes in this regard whether God exists or not. You are still to blame.

    The only difference is that a person might think that they "can get away with it".
    We will all see whether that is the case, eventually.
     
  17. KnowSelf

    KnowSelf Active Member

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    Your post, if I'm reading it properly indicates you see yourself as victim? For one reason or another you chose God to be accountable for decisions that you alone are responsible for. No one but you is capable of choosing your likes or dislikes. You like everyone else decides his/hers path given the circumstances we are involved in.

    The Law of Attraction paves the way for the circumstances we create, free will gives us the ability and responsibility of choice.

    Life is an equation, we learn by trial and error meaning everyone is accountable, good, bad or indifferent. We imprint life by everything we do, failure to recognize this is living without care or conscious.

    If God the Creator is responsible for our mistakes careless or otherwise, what are the purposes or reasons not to blow someone's head off because I'm having a bad hair day? Seems foolish that God is responsible for my bad behavior. This is why we have a crime and justice system so I don't blame God because I perceive Him to be at fault.
     
  18. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    I do not believe that @Aupmanyav sees himself as victim, imo. The opposite. He's being ironic.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2020
  19. KnowSelf

    KnowSelf Active Member

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  20. OrtaYol

    OrtaYol Active Member

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    Depends on how you want to look at it and apply the word "intend". Allah doesn't intend on us to do wrong so when we do this you could say we went against Gods intentions. So, yes you can do something which God did not intend.

    However He does intend on us to exercise our freewill. Since all our actions that can be classified on the moral spectrum are an exercise of our freewill then you could say no, we cannot do anything God did not intend.

    So again, Allah has set the conditions for the hardening of your heart, if you exercise your freewill and it ends up hardening your heart you could try to blame God for setting the condition but you would have to establish that the setting of the condition is unjust.

    Otherwise what you are suggesting is no different then running head first into someones fist and then claiming you were unjustly punched in the face.
     

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