Was Jesus God or is it just a name of a human being used by our Creator?

Discussion in 'Christianity' started by IAMinyou, Sep 10, 2020.

  1. IAMinyou

    IAMinyou Interfaith Forums

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    According to this passage found in the Bible, it appears the answer Jesus gave to the Jews shows that he isn't God, the Lord and Savior that Christians believe in.

    John 7
    13: Yet for fear of the Jews no one spoke openly of him.
    14: About the middle of the feast Jesus went up into the temple and taught.
    15: The Jews marveled at it, saying, "How is it that this man has learning, when he has never studied?"
    16: So Jesus answered them, "My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me;
    17: if any man's will is to do his will, he shall know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority.
    18: He who speaks on his own authority seeks his own glory; but he who seeks the glory of him who sent him is true, and in him there is no falsehood.
     
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  2. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    Perhaps The Christ is the overself bridge between God and man, perfectly expressed in Jesus, word and action?
     
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  3. Namaste Jesus

    Namaste Jesus Praise the Lord and Enjoy the Chai Staff Member

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    John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
     
  4. IAMinyou

    IAMinyou Interfaith Forums

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    Don't you know what Christ means? There were many human beings chosen to testify during this 1000 year reign of Christ after the human being named Jesus was chosen to testify to the invisible Spirit represented by all these various phrases found in the Bible; Word of God, Word of the Lord, Son of God, Grace of God, Love of God, Wisdom of God, Voice of God, Voice of the Lord, Spirit of God, Spirit, Lord, God, Holy Spirit, Messiah, Mother, the Woman, Creation, Virgin, Son of God, Heaven, Heavenly Kingdom, Kingdom of God, Christ, Mind of Christ, Mind of God, Kingdom of Christ, Jesus Christ, Ancient of Days, Light of Men, Light of God, the Light, Kingdom of the Spirit, the Rock, the Breath, Breath of Life, Book of Life, and the Tree of Life. There are other's I haven't mentioned in this writing.

    Here is one of the human beings who had to write or speak these words from our Creator via the Holy Spirit;

    1 Corinthians 2
    10: God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.
    11: For what person knows a man's thoughts except the spirit of the man which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
    12: Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is from God, that we might understand the gifts bestowed on us by God.
    13: And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who possess the Spirit.
    14: The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
    15: The spiritual man judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one.
    16: "For who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.
     
  5. IAMinyou

    IAMinyou Interfaith Forums

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    When quoting from the Bible, it is important to quote the rest of the words to make sure you don't miss the important parts of it.

    John 14
    11: Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father in me; or else believe me for the sake of the works themselves.
    12: "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father.
    13: Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son;
    14: if you ask anything in my name, I will do it.
    15: "If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
    16: And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever,
    17: even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you.

    23: Jesus answered him, "If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
    24: He who does not love me does not keep my words; and the word which you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me.
    25: "These things I have spoken to you, while I am still with you.
    26: But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

    1 John 2
    27: but the anointing which you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that any one should teach you; as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie, just as it has taught you, abide in him.

    I got all my knowledge directly from my created existence known as the Holy Spirit. I didn't get it from reading words in a book.
     
  6. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    It means The Annointed One.
    The Christ as the intermediary between God and man, imo.

    God as man. To show the way. The mystery of the Cross. Suspended between Heaven and Earth: belonging to each, but fully to neither? As opposed to God as a neutron star, or as an otter, for example -- because God is these things too?
    On the subject of extended Biblical passages: it's ok just to post a link to the passage. It's your own interpretation of the passage. People draw different messages from them. Ok to paste up phrases you want to highlight, but generally no need to paste up whole long passages, imo?
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2020
  7. IAMinyou

    IAMinyou Interfaith Forums

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    Yes. I know all about the first witness of the 1000 year reign of Christ that started over 2000 years ago. Then I also know about the apostasy that happened from the end of the first witness until the second witness started about 1600 years later.

    Amos 8
    11: "Behold, the days are coming," says the Lord GOD, "when I will send a famine on the land; not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD.
    12: They shall wander from sea to sea, and from north to east; they shall run to and fro, to seek the word of the LORD, but they shall not find it.

    There will be another apostasy for a little while after the second witness is finished. Then the day of the Lord will be used to end this temporary generation.

    The good news is that all MEN ( male and female ) created in the invisible IMAGE of our CREATOR will enjoy eternal life after all human beings are destroyed on the day of the Lord.

    Revelation 21
    1: Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
    2: And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband;
    3: and I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling of God is with men. He will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself will be with them;
    4: he will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away."
    5: And he who sat upon the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." Also he said, "Write this, for these words are trustworthy and true."
     
  8. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    The overself? Higher self? A level of unconscious conscious?
     
  9. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    More like a bridge, imo? Something like that. To avoid agreeing with saying 'I too am Christ'

    It is the narrow way, to leave all and follow him? It leads away from the material world of desire fulfillment?

    Saying 'Christ is in me' is not the same thing as saying 'I too am Christ'?

    John the Baptist called himself unworthy even to undo Jesus' sandal. None of the closest apostles said that they too were Christ? Who would say such a thing?
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020
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  10. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    My comments above are not aimed at the person who started this thread by the way, who can't participate any longer. It's well understood he was speaking for the Christ the words of the Father -- or perhaps that Christ was working through him -- he was not declaring himself equal with Christ.

    That is something some of the new age non dualistic type of movements seem to believe of themselves nowadays?
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020
  11. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls Staff Member

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    Why should they?
    There is only one Christ (Messiah), and the Apostles believed that Jesus was telling the truth.

    Almighty God [ YHWH ] sends the Messiah to mankind, as in the OT. God and the Messiah are not one and the same.
    i.e. 'the Son' is distinct from 'the Father'

    It's a pity about Greek culture and its implications of 'god family'
     
  12. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    Be still and no that I am G!d.
     
  13. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    I'm not God. God is God. I am also nature. That doesn't mean I'm not intimately connected and permeated by spirit. It does not mean I do not have the potential. It does not mean I do not contain the divine. But I am not God. Imo

    Even the highest angel is not God.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2020
  14. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    My finger can say: I am Roger. In a way that is true. But although I can go on without my finger, my finger cannot go on without me. Something like that, lol?

    I don't know ...

    I do know I am not God. I know I am not the Christ.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2020
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  15. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls Staff Member

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    I'm pleased to hear it :)
    I also don't believe that I am "special", in that I have the same status as other human beings.
    The main difference between humans is their differing intentions and deeds.

    There is only one Messiah, and I believe that Jesus, peace be with him, is that one.
    'sons of God' appear like angels/divine, as they don't intentionally sin like the rest of us.

    @RJM interesting .. I can see your edit history on your posts.
    I'm not vindictive, so you don't have any worries :)
     
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  16. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    I edit a lot. I used to be a journalist. I like to try to get it right for posterity. Hemingway would not be great if all his original draughts had been published, without his editing ...Lol
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2020
  17. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    In the sense it doesn't matter what I thought I might say, or thought I might do: it's what I did say and what I did do, lol?

    Also especially on the phone I dictate as lot of it by voice and then I have to go back and edit ... ok so no excuse ...
     
  18. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls Staff Member

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    That's interesting..
    I'm an old dinosaur .. I use a 10 year old pentium tower running linux.
    ..so I update as little as possible so as to keep the sys from grinding to a halt.
    I like the precision of using a mouse and keyboard .. I find the more modern tablet a bit cumbersome.
    The downside is that I'm always running older software .. it works ok for this forum though .. great!
    Nice big 16" screen too [ eyes beginning to fail ] :)
     
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  19. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    I have always liked the words of Christ to St Catherine of Siena:
    "Do you know, daughter, who you are and who I am? If you know these two things you have beatitude in your grasp. You are she who is not, and I AM HE WHO IS."
     
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  20. Miken

    Miken Active Member

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    John is ambiguous about the status of Jesus, presenting him as both as equivalent to God and less than God.

    John 10:30 I and the Father are one.
    John 14:28 …for the Father is greater than I.

    We can see this ambiguity already in the introductory passage.

    The usual translation of John 1:1 runs like this:
    John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    This is not quite what the Greek says.
    Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος
    In beginning was the Word

    καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν
    and the Word was with the God

    καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.
    and god was the Word

    In koine Greek, when the referent was something definite and specific, a definite article was used. When the referent was not definite and specific, no article was provided. Koine Greek had no indefinite articles.

    τὸν θεόν is ‘the God’. In the New Testament scriptures, this form is used for the one and only God of Jewish and Christian monotheism. When the gods of other religions were meant, no article was provided. ‘The word was with God’ refers to the Jewish/Christian God by virtue of the definite article τὸν. But ‘The word was God’, the usual translation of the next clause, is not what the Greek says. The proper translation would be ‘a god was the word’, supplying the implied indefinite article as per normal translation practice.

    What is this supposed to mean? The clue lies in the next verses.

    John 1:2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    The Word, ὁ λόγος = the Logos, is the term the Jewish philosopher Philo of Alexandria uses for the quasi-divine entity that embodies the power of God in the world. More specifically, the Logos is responsible for the creation of all things and their continued coherence. Philo was attracted to the Platonic concept of God being totally pure and transcendent and therefore would never be directly involved in anything so mundane as creating the material world. In Platonism this is the job of the demiurge, an intermediate divine entity. Philo’s intermediary is the Logos, the Word of Gid whereby creation was accomplished. As Philo was Jewish and therefore a monotheist, he never called the Logos a separate divine entity. Sometimes in his writing the Logos is no different from God. Other times it is some kind of super angel, the first-born of God, that was begotten not made (sound familiar?) and was always with God from the beginning.

    Philo also calls the Logos the Son of God, the phrase used by Paul in reference to Jesus. Colossians makes it clear that this is Philo’s creative intermediary.

    Colossians 1
    15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

    The ambiguity John shows about the status of Jesus is the same ambiguity that arises in trying to understand Philo’s Logos. Is Jesus God or not God? Are Jesus and the Father one, or is the Father greater than Jesus?
     

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