Sufism, Rumi, Heaven, hell, universal salvation or it's irrelevance?

Discussion in 'Islam' started by Fry, Oct 26, 2020.

  1. Fry

    Fry Member

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    Per Sufism and it's articulators like Rumi, is hell an everlasting horror where the wicked burn forever?

    Or is universal salvation possible?

    Or are all of the above irrelevant because the mystic understands God in a way that transcends such notions?
     
  2. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls Staff Member

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    The true "mystic path" does not negate important concepts such as heaven & hell. To do so would be to negate the Qur'an,
    something which scholars like Rumi certainly didn't do.
    It's about putting these concepts into a correct context. Rather than a shallow, literal understanding of religion, these sufis
    delved deeper into the soul, trying to achieve a nearness to their Creator. They did not claim that nobody will go to hell.
    They also didn't claim that others, who didn't share their "way" were going to hell.

    The bottom line is that only Allah, the Most High, knows who is destined for hell .. and how long they will remain there.
    Hell is a concept .. it is not a case of "a literal god person" torturing people in "a literal blazing fire".
    Allah is warning us of the consequences of evil .. "Allah wrongs nobody .. mankind wrong their own souls"
     
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  3. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic)

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    I've spoken to Sufis. They might tell you that Rumi is tricky to understand without proper grounding in Islam. They might also point out that your question seems to be "am I loved?" when it could be "do I love?".

    And I'd be interested in @Arif Ghamiq 's thoughts!
     
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  4. Fry

    Fry Member

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    Thank you. It does sound like you are saying the Sufis do not teach the literal eternal hellfire version as found in some schools of Islam?

    Is there a specific work by a Sufi sage or other written work stating the impermanence, and/or non literal interpretation of hell?
     
  5. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls Staff Member

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    You can start by reading a brief introduction to the Sufi viewpoint -----> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jahannam#Sufism
     
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  6. Fry

    Fry Member

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    Thank you.

    So, if we take the position of ibn Arabi, this answers all three questions neatly:

    1.) Per Sufism and it's articulators like Rumi, is hell an everlasting horror where the wicked burn forever?

    "According to ibn Arabi, the Hell and the Heaven refer, in fact, to distance from, and proximity to, God, respectively. The Hell which is home to wrong-doers is their conception of their distance from God, and the painful punishment and humility is that of distance. Such a distance is caused by one's indulgence in their natural desires and the illusion of things other than God as existent. But such a distance is only illusory, since everything is a form of the degrees of the Divine Existence, and thus, everything other than God is but illusion."

    2.) Or is universal salvation possible?

    "...everything other than God is but illusion."

    3.) Or are all of the above irrelevant because the mystic understands God in a way that transcends such notions?

    "...everything other than God is but illusion."
     
  7. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    Bingo! Imo ...
     
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  8. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    Imagine denying God exists? In the sense of some sort of higher overeaching power -- something higher than man? Imagine knowing all this came into existence as some sort of mathematical coincidence? Imagine knowing that man is the highest intelligence in the whole universe? Imagine knowing human consciousness exists as a coincidence side effect of chemical brain activity?

    The gulf is so wide ...
     
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  9. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    Imagine setting yourself up against all that? Will it smite you, will it destroy you, will it burn you? Or will it just leave you learn to find out in your own time, your own tears, your own bitter regrets? The ones you hurt most whom you loved most? The time you can't turn back ...
     
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  10. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls Staff Member

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    That's not an answer to your question..
    Suffering in hell is as real as the suffering one might experience in this life.
    It is more of "a condition" than a place. We reap what we sow.
     
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  11. Fry

    Fry Member

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    Regardless, you'd agree that, from a Sufi perspective, specifically that of ibn Arabi, hell is not eternal?
     
  12. Fry

    Fry Member

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    Hey! I thought of how you explained your faith to me when I read that! Very similar! I'm pleased you noticed too :)

    Edit: I had you confused with someone else lol! Sorry!
     
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  13. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    @powessy
    Talks about the human existence as a chance to 'figure ourselves out' and to find time for ourselves -- to bring time into ourselves here in the physical that we will keep when we have to let go the physical ... something like that?
     
  14. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic)

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    The gulf is only wide insofar as there is an other side to it.

    If by "transcend" you mean "improve upon" such notions, then as far as this mystic is concerned, no. It is not at all about understanding. It is instead a gesture of what the Sufis might call the "heart".

    On the other hand, by discounting everything that goes away when not believed in any more (to paraphrase a popular phrase by P.K. Dick), i.e. by discounting illusion, a good intellectual approximation may be arrived at. Which still leaves the work of the heart to be done.

    IMO. ;)
     
  15. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    Is the sense that if we die with no time then we are gone, cease to exist ...
     
  16. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls Staff Member

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    I'm not an expert on ibn Arabi or Sufism .
    I do know that God is "the First & the Last" .. meaning He has always been and always will be.
    .. "God is" [ and the Jewish "I am" ]
    or another way of putting it .. God is infinite.

    Looking at hell as a sort of incarceration, one might consider the case of a person who is serving life imprisonment and refuses to repent.
    It IS possible that a soul might be in that state forever .. no?
     
  17. RabbiO

    RabbiO הרב יונה בן זכריה

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    It would be more accurate to say"and the Jewish 'I will be'."
     
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  18. Fry

    Fry Member

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    Last edited: Oct 26, 2020
  19. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls Staff Member

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    I don't subscribe to philosophising as to what MIGHT happen to us after our death.
    I've heard the argument before .. "Does anybody really deserve everlasting torment?"
    Allah knows best. The best way of avoiding trouble is to "fear God" .. take His guidance seriously and avoid sin.

    What eventually happens to a soul that scoffs, and turns away from righteousness, I wouldn't like to say.
    It seems to me that the result could be serious indeed.
    What righteous person is going to trust them unless they repent?
     
  20. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    I rather think Isla in particular, the Abrahamics broadly, and religions generally, paint quite nuanced pictures of the eschaton, about which we know nothing in any concrete detail.

    So when we run with infernal images of everlasting horror, etc., we are rather speaking only of the (sometimes over-passionate) emotions, rather than the cooler light of the intellect.

    Having said that, it's a given that the population as whole responds very poorly to the intellect, we are driven by, and often the prisoners of, our emotions and especially our passions.

    "with God, anything is possible", as the Christian Scriptures have it (Matthew 19:26)

    Understanding in a way that transcends does not necessarily mean that the idea, or the image, is untrue?

    We have to be cautious of assuming mystics 'think outside the box', as it is often the case, or at least it seems that way to me, that the mystic sees deeper into 'the box', rather than the populist assumption that somehow the mystic has risen above it.

    As a by-word, 'thinking outside the religious box' rather denotes a failure to fully comprehend religion as such, as religion deals with the Infinite and the Eternal. Indeed, by comparison, every other human pursuit is necessarily boxed by the nature of its object.
     
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