Did Most Early Christians Believe The Divinity of Christ?

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions' started by RJM Corbet, Mar 16, 2021.

  1. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    An individual wishing to dismantle the truth of a religion not his own should at least have a reasonable working knowledge of that religion -- have read the scripture -- before coming onto internet forums to try to make a mockery?
     
  2. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Really? Well I believe you can pray your way into.accepting climate change exists and accepting the repercussions, but do you think you can pray it away and expecting G!d to.change things?

    Rambling on is what we do here.

    Cooking dinner is what I do at.the stove

    Weeding and pruning is what I do in the garden.

    I do not expect this site nor its discussions to solve tje worlds problems...

    I expect to read folks ramblings...
     
  3. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    Climate change is our planet's reaction to human overpopulation, imo.
     
  4. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    Stupid questions..
     
  5. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    No quite obviously, this site cannot solve or stop mankind's greed and idiocy :(

    What we can do is consider what is causing it, and when the problem became significant.
    I would say it all started to get worse after the world wars, when "the west" took over
    as victor over the middle east. It is not just about whether Christians are better or Muslims are better.
    We are ALL sinners.

    However, who's agenda has established the oil age and its quest for ever faster travel?
    Large busy airports and highways?

    They are rhetorical questions, of course..
    Mankind are often hypocrites. They just want to carry on as they are, whether they
    acknowledge climate-change or not.
    Armageddon cannot be thwarted. It is happening. That is mankind.
    ..and this time, Almighty God is letting it all happen.
    Why? Almighty God knows best why..
    ..and the life hereafter is superior to this worldly life.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2021
  6. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    Oh yeah. Blame it on overpopulation. The usual cop-out !
    It is what mankind is DOING .. nothing to do with how many people there are.

    In any case .. population has always been rising and falling, and
    will continue to do so.
     
  7. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Yes, no human lives up to their earthly potential, with this I agree, we all have fallen short.of.our mark.

    And our lives often reap.the rewards for.what we have sown in this regard.
     
  8. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    If Jesus did not die on the cross, but allowed an innocent to die a lingering death in his place, then he deliberately deceived everyone? Even if he did not die but was taken down alive he deliberately deceived everyone. Or not? Do you have an alternative explanation?

    Since you have not read the new testament, do you need all the NT passages?
    Nope. It's always continued to rise, in our lifetimes
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2021
  9. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    He came of virgin birth, ascended bodily alive to heaven, and will return to break and kill, yet lied to his Apostles and followers and let an innocent man die in his place? Doesnt sound like anyone I'd like to know
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2021
  10. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    No. You have already made up your mind. Jesus did not deceive anybody.
    ..just because it seemed that Jesus appeared to die on the cross, does not mean that he did.
    Did Jesus say that he did .. or didn't die on the cross?

    Did I say that I have not read the NT?
    ..or is it just you saying so?
     
  11. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    It's the whole point of the NT. It's the entry into Jerusalem and the last supper. The passion and resurrection of Christ. Of course I can isolate the passages where Jesus said it. How can anyone say they know the NT and deny the crucifixion death of Christ? Or you can check on Wikipedia. You are completely barking up the wrong tree denying it's a major part of the New Testament and Christian doctrine.
    When?
     
  12. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    You didn't answer my question..
    Did Jesus say that he did .. or didn't die on the cross?
     
  13. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    I'll post the quotes tomorrow. I can't be bothered with wrangling about the obvious right now on my phone. Meantime do your Google/Wiki check starting with Luke 9:22
    https://biblehub.com/luke/9-22.htm
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2021
  14. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Let G-d judge between us.
     
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  15. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    The whole story of Jesus's returning to Jerusalem and last supper, and the dismissal of Judas and the agony in the garden, is his foreknowledge of the crucifixion? It's just not reasonable to suggest otherwise?

    It is clear front and centre to anyone who actually reads the gospel accounts.

    I'll isolate some quotes when I have time. But I know they'll be rejected ...
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2021
  16. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    There are probably other passages. I’m sorry, I am not trying to be argumentative and difficult, but Jesus’s foreknowledge of his death by crucifixion and his submission to it are just so clear that to deny it is impossible. It is possible to look it up via Google and Wikipedia: Jesus predicts his death

    No-one from another faith is asked to believe it, but to deny it is simply incorrect. Christ’s willing sacrifice of his life upon the cross is central to understanding of Christian faith, imo.

    From the synoptics:

    Matthew 17:22-23
    When they came together in Galilee, he said to them, “The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men. They will kill him, and on the third day he will be raised to life.” And the disciples were filled with grief.

    Mark 8:31
    He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again.

    Luke 9:22
    And he said, “The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.”

    Luke 13:33
    "Nevertheless I must walk today, and tomorrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem."

    These passages and others from John are more subtle, but still clear enough:

    John 12:7-8
    “Leave her alone,” Jesus replied. “It was intended that she should save this perfume for the day of my burial. You will always have the poor among you, but you will not always have me.”

    John 14:25-31
    “All this I have spoken while still with you. But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

    Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

    “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

    I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me,but he comes so that the world may learn that I love the Father and do exactly what my Father has commanded me.”

    John 12:23-24
    Jesus replied, “The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. Very truly I tell you, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds.”

    Then there are Christ’s words at the last supper, the dismissal of Judas and in the garden of Gethsemane:

    John 13:21-27
    After he had said this, Jesus was troubled in spirit and testified, “Very truly I tell you, one of you is going to betray me.”

    His disciples stared at one another, at a loss to know which of them he meant.One of them, the disciple whom Jesus loved, was reclining next to him. Simon Peter motioned to this disciple and said, “Ask him which one he means.”

    Leaning back against Jesus, he asked him, “Lord, who is it?”

    Jesus answered, “It is the one to whom I will give this piece of bread when I have dipped it in the dish.” Then, dipping the piece of bread, he gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot. As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him.

    So Jesus told him, “What you are about to do, do quickly.”

    The Agony in the Garden
    “According to all four canonical Gospels, immediately after the Last Supper, Jesus took a walk to pray. Each Gospel offers a slightly different account regarding narrative details. The gospels of Matthew and Mark identify this place of prayer as Gethsemane. Jesus was accompanied by three Apostles: Peter, John and James, whom he asked to stay awake and pray. He moved "a stone's throw away" from them, where he felt overwhelming sadness and anguish, and said "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass me by. Nevertheless, let it be as You, not I, would have it." Then, a little while later, he said, "If this cup cannot pass by, but I must drink it, Your will be done!" (Matthew 26:42; in Latin Vulgate: fiat voluntas tua).

    He said this prayer thrice, checking on the three apostles between each prayer and finding them asleep. He commented: "The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak". An angel came from heaven to strengthen him. During his agony as he prayed, "His sweat was, as it were, great drops of blood falling down upon the ground" (Luke 22:44).

    At the conclusion of the narrative, Jesus accepts that the hour has come for him for him to be betrayed.”

    etc...
     
  17. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    Right .. so the NT says that Jesus said he was going to be killed.
    That is .. "according to" Matthew, Mark and Luke.

    It seems that these Gospels originate from a common source.
    One could say that if "killed" is substituted with the word "crucified", it could still mean that he didn't actually die.

    However, I know that you believe that he actually died.
    Let's say that he did die .. and then God made him alive again. :)

    Nothing changes for me. The Law is still the Law. Old testament .. New Testament .. whatever.
     
  18. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    "The West" has its roots in Christianity. Modern law has become secular, and the world is doomed.

    Mankind cannot be successful while turning their backs on the Law taught by God through the men he sent to
    warn us and guide us.

    Early Christians did not promote the law as it is today.
    They did not believe what most Christians believe today.
     
  19. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    I believe he told everybody he was going to die and if he didn't die, he lied. Did Jesus lie about it?
    For which you have evidence?

    Anyway ...
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2021
  20. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic) Admin

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    In your belief, what is "The Law", what does it say?

    Why should early believers necessarily be more correct in their beliefs than later generations?

    On the other hand, was Abraham less correct because he did not keep the commandments revealed to Moses? Was Moses less correct because he did not explicitly state the One Commandment of the Christians? Was Jesus less correct because he did not command pilgrimage or a month of fasting, or specify the rules of prayer in more detail? Was Muhammad less correct because he did not specify inheritance laws?
     

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