Who created God?

Discussion in 'Belief and Spirituality' started by muhammad_isa, Mar 18, 2021.

  1. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2019
    Messages:
    1,759
    Likes Received:
    332
    I would have thought that that topic has been covered quite extensively already :)
    but to me, there are clear Inconsistencies in doctrines around what the Arians are supposed to have believed, and
    what common sense tells us, with what evidence we have today.

    i.e. you have no idea what a spiritual substance is, despite it being an alleged belief of Arians
    Furthermore, the doctrine of "creating" souls is also something you cannot define,
    other than to say they can be created and destroyed. From what they are created, you've no idea?

    I'm sure you agree with me that Almighty God cannot be created and destroyed..
    ..so what is this "special substance", I wonder?
     
  2. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2019
    Messages:
    1,759
    Likes Received:
    332
    ..more apologetics..
     
  3. ScholarlySeeker

    ScholarlySeeker Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2021
    Messages:
    188
    Likes Received:
    85
    It makes no sense at all.
     
  4. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2003
    Messages:
    11,054
    Likes Received:
    1,766
    OK.

    What seems like common sense to someone in the 21st century is not necessarily common sense to someone in the 4th.

    You've already dismissed the evidence.

    If you can't see the illogicality in that ...
     
  5. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2003
    Messages:
    11,054
    Likes Received:
    1,766
    More avoidance ... :p
     
  6. stranger

    stranger wolfwing, a feral angel

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2013
    Messages:
    463
    Likes Received:
    159
    This is just a general reply, I haven't even read all the replies that came in before I went for my walk. We have wrigglies and squigglies... who has what and what has who I don't know. All I know is that I have some kind of fire in my heart. I think we could go on and on with these squiggly lines seemingly forever, or like the Kilkenny Cats (some distant memory here) who fought each other until there was nothing left.

    So there are some issues here and all the debating in the world is not going to make them go away.

    (I think) there are four (3?, can't be less than 2: impressively mind-bending ) of us here, locked in like the prima materia in a closed flask. Nothing can be added or taken away now, all that is needed is in the flask, it's just a matter of the master alchemist (God) using the right amount of heat to produce the desired result (which only He is privy to).

    Nothing here needs to be perfect, it only needs to meet what God requires in order to release (and bless, I think) all of us from and through these issues.

    Now to use the priest and sacrifice model. I have known I was the sacrifice for quite some time now, accept it or not, that's just the way it is. I don't need to explain anything here, my life has been given and nothing has been held back, there is no bottom to it. Look at it as an imitation of Christ, albeit a poor one, but enough to get the job done here. I've suffered some, I really don't know how much more will be required.

    Christ was both sacrifice and high priest, and in this poor imitation I will be filling that role. (I don't see anyone else lining up to do it.) I actually don't know what was done or what was experienced or if it is still going on. I'm not sure how it is to unfold. Perhaps a private parley is in order, I don't know. My sincere hope is that all of us will walk away with something good, we've all had too little of that in our lives. Perhaps God who loves us just wants to do something good for us.

    I've had something similar to this once before and it didn't turn out good for me, or I should say it didn't turn out good in the short term. If I leave with a shattered heart, so be it. If my physical life is lost (not by my own hand, of course), so be it. I just feel I need to move things forward somehow or these nonsensical and fruitless debates will just continue. Just taking a shot in the dark here. Use your PM if you like, you're not going to catch leprosy from just corresponding with me on the computer.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2021
  7. stranger

    stranger wolfwing, a feral angel

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2013
    Messages:
    463
    Likes Received:
    159
    I will be here off and on, just do what the spirit requires of you, doesn't have to be perfect, doesn't have to be any big thing. I'm exhausted, haven't been able to sleep much so I'll be here as I am able but have to try to rest a bit if I can.
     
  8. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2003
    Messages:
    11,054
    Likes Received:
    1,766
    Again, for the interested, a number of flase claims refuted:
    LOL. An incorporeal substance ...

    As any evidence of what the Arians believed is refuted, this is a moot point.

    There is no Catholic doctrine regarding the creation of the soul.

    The belief is that the soul is created, that is brought into existence, by the will of God.

    Quite. As God is not 'soul', the point is irrelevant.

    We can only qualify the nature of the soul, terms like nefesh, ruah, neshamah (Hebrew); psyche, pneuma (Greek); anima, spiritus, (Latin); ruh, nafs (Arabic).
     
  9. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2003
    Messages:
    11,054
    Likes Received:
    1,766
    Hi Stranger.

    This is not a clash of religion. If it were a Christian debating a Muslim on matters of faith or doctrine, it would run completely differently.

    What this is, in a nutshell, is someone misrepresenting history to suit an ideology. Material evidence is dismissed, scholarship is dismissed, in the end the voices of antiquity are silenced, often on spurious grounds, and philosophical positions are poo-poo'ed on the basis that they're not 'common sense'.
     
    RJM Corbet likes this.
  10. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2019
    Messages:
    1,759
    Likes Received:
    332
    No .. of course not.
    It is not possible to MAKE somebody comprehend something.
    Either they do, or they don't.
    There are many reasons why we might not see the truth in something .. and I think you're right
    when you say it has a lot to do with "the self" [ ego ] .. it's just how it is.

    I'm not sure whether they are "nonsensical", but for many onlookers they probably look as if they are not fruitful, that is true.
    I have also suffered in my life .. I think most people have. It's probably more a question of how much.
    That is why we have the famous quote "For the rich man to go to heaven, is like passing through the eye of a needle".
    My health is poor. I feel ready to go. I feel I have suffered enough.
    However, I will not give in to satan. I do NOT believe in taking my own life .. not that I haven't come close.

    I don't see why you should leave with a shattered heart .. who despairs of the Mercy of his Lord except for those astray?
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2021
  11. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2019
    Messages:
    1,759
    Likes Received:
    332
    Oh really? Then what IS He then? [ Yes .. I know .. an incorporeal substance :rolleyes: ]

    That's quite funny :D
    Who is the one "misrepresenting history" ?
    Anybody who thinks that "Roman history" is distorted in some way? Is that right?
     
  12. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2019
    Messages:
    1,759
    Likes Received:
    332
    Let's go back to basics.
    We have a temple in Jerusalem that is frequented by Saducees and Pharisees.
    Jesus Christ appears [ as God or otherwise ] and claims to be the Messiah.
    Jesus finally ascends to heaven.

    We then have the Romans persecuting those who believe in him.
    Eventually, we have a Roman religion that persecutes ALL beliefs except one state religion.
    A Roman administration that makes its own laws etc.

    Now, if you think that that isn't at all suspicious, that might be because you've been successfully brainwashed.
    ..or it might be that I have no idea what I'm talking about as some people accuse me of.

    @Thomas says that I'm making it all up as I go along, to make it fit my ideology.
    Strangely enough though, many atheist academics are saying very similar things about Roman history as I am.
    Oh well !
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2021
  13. stranger

    stranger wolfwing, a feral angel

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2013
    Messages:
    463
    Likes Received:
    159
    No, I think I was clear if my physical life suffers or is lost it will not be by my own hand. Things can get that heavy though, but it's just me I think, of whom these things are required. In other words, I want the best for you (and others) and am willing to give all to see it happen.

    I only say that I don't know how things will go, so nothing is off the table. Sure, I would like to leave blessed and with a new life, but I have no control over that. I just can't do things the way you people here do them, got to get to the heart of the matter.
     
  14. stranger

    stranger wolfwing, a feral angel

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2013
    Messages:
    463
    Likes Received:
    159
    Perhaps it's time you answered for yourself Thomas. What is God to you? I mean on a personal level, jargon aside. I remember an experience you had one time where you knew everyone you saw was loved. Is my memory playing tricks on me or did that not happen? They met no requirements, you were not able to tell atheist from Catholic, and yet there was a supernatural certainty that they were loved.
     
  15. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2003
    Messages:
    11,054
    Likes Received:
    1,766
    Origen and Justinian.

    The crisis under Justinian was in fact the second time Origen was condemned for his teachings.

    Origenist monks in Palestine, referred to by their enemies as "Isochristoi" ("those who would assume equality with Christ"), saw Origen's teaching of the pre-existence of souls to mean all souls were originally perfect and equal, thus the same as Christ's, and would be equal again with the final restoration of all things back to their primordial perfection at the end of time (apokatastasis).

    Another Origenist school insisted that Christ was the "leader of many brethren", the first-created being. These were referred to as "Protoktistoi" ("first createds"). Both factions accused the other of heresy, and other Christians accused both of them of heresy.

    The Protoktistoi appealed to Justinian to condemn the Isochristoi of heresy. A local synod concluded that the Isochristoi were heretical and, their claiming Origen as their inspiration, denounced Origen as well. Justinian ordered all of Origen's writings to be burned.

    The Second Council of Constantinople (553AD) was hampered because Pope Vigilius refused to participate despite being held prisoner by Justinian.

    In his absence, the bishops at the council ratified an open letter condemning Origen as the leader of the Isochristoi.

    Here's where it gets involved:

    The letter was not part of the official acts of the council, it more or less repeated the edict of the local synod ten years previously. It cites objectionable writings attributed to Origen, but were actually written by Evagrius Ponticus. The council opened, with Pope Vigillius still refusing to take part.

    Under duress from Justinian, the attending bishops drew up a list of anathemata (condemnations). In the official text of the eleventh anathema, Origen is condemned as a Christological heretic, but his name does not appear at all in the first draft of the anathemata issued by the imperial chancery. Nor does it appear in the version of the conciliar proceedings eventually signed by Pope Vigillius, a long time afterwards.

    It would appear that Origen's name may have been retrospectively inserted into the text after the Council. Even if Origen's name did appear in the original text of the anathema, the teachings attributed to Origen were actually the ideas of later Origenists, seemingly with little grounding in anything Origen had actually written. Popes Vigilius, and subsequently Pelagius I, Pelagius II, and Gregory the Great seem unaware of Origenism or universalism, nor of its condemnation.

    Postscript:
    The Council of 553 is generally regarded as defective – the pope wasn't present, Justinian was forcing his opinion by threats, the council papers were subsequently tampered with. In The Councils of the Church, the standard work compiled from original documents by Norman P Tanner in 1999, the anathemata are not recorded, the whole issue treated as unreliable, so the condemnation of Origen by Justinian is in fact false.

    Today it's believed Origen was orthodox and no-one more devoted to the cause of the Christian faith.

    As a result of these condemnations, only a fraction of his prodigious writings have survived. Nonetheless, these still amount to a massive number of texts. Many more writings survive in fragments through quotations from later theologians. It is quite likely that Origen's most unusual and speculative ideas have been lost, making it nearly impossible to determine whether he was the heretic the anathemas ascribed him to be.

    Nonetheless, in spite of that, the church remained enamoured of him and he remained a central figure of Christian theology throughout the first millennium and remains so to this day.
     
    RJM Corbet likes this.
  16. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2003
    Messages:
    11,054
    Likes Received:
    1,766
    God.
     
    RJM Corbet likes this.
  17. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2003
    Messages:
    11,054
    Likes Received:
    1,766
    That should be addressed to @muhammad_isa, not me, it's him who's speaking.

    Yep. On the up escalator at Kings Cross station.
     
  18. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2016
    Messages:
    4,533
    Likes Received:
    914
    There are a lot of people reading this who are not participating in the discussion, and the threads will continue to exist for years into the future. There is not only right but obligation to correct ... what's the polite word here -- deliberate misrepresentations -- posted with the intention to mislead. Imo

    However it is a useless task. Cut one head off the monster and two grow in its place. Intelligent readers will eventually form their own adult conclusions
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2021
  19. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2019
    Messages:
    1,759
    Likes Received:
    332
    Yes, I can imagine why you might think that.
    ..but I ask you why you would rather stick to a philosophy [ belief system ] in which it is "all a mystery" ?
    You must have some reason for that.

    Personally, I think that many people are frightened of losing a perceived freedom.
    ..whereas in reality, it is the other way round .. at least, it is for the poor and oppressed.
     
  20. stranger

    stranger wolfwing, a feral angel

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2013
    Messages:
    463
    Likes Received:
    159
    RJM, understood, but I was trying to discern living entities. I am one of those. When I say four I mean 4 living entities who are locked into a dilemma which needs to be resolved.
     
    RJM Corbet likes this.

Share This Page