Islam is nasty?

Discussion in 'Islam' started by muhammad_isa, Apr 17, 2021.

  1. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    Context, man, context !

    14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
    15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
    16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

    - Mark 16 -

    How can a baby believe? It makes no sense. (S)He wouldn't know what the priest was talking about :)

    What sins specifically?
    ..and whose sins? The sins of your church's "members"?
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2021
  2. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    I remember when I was taking my classes to be confirmed in the Anglican church in my teens..

    14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
    15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption,

    whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
    - Romans 8 -

    Confirmation is more in line with what I consider baptism should be about. I see it as a purification ritual
    that demands our awareness of what we are believing in.
     
  3. Ahanu

    Ahanu Well-Known Member

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    I didn’t know you came from a Christian background.
     
  4. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    "Anabaptists" believe that baptism is valid only when candidates freely confess their faith in Christ and request to be baptized. This believer's baptism is opposed to baptism of infants, who are not able to make a conscious decision to be baptized.
    ...
    The name Anabaptist means "one who baptizes again". Their persecutors named them this, referring to the practice of baptizing persons when they converted or declared their faith in Christ even if they had been baptized as infants
    ...
    The persecution of Anabaptists was condoned by the ancient laws of Theodosius I and Justinian I which were passed against the Donatists, and decreed the death penalty for anyone who practised rebaptism. Martyrs Mirror, by Thieleman J. van Braght, describes the persecution and execution of thousands of Anabaptists in various parts of Europe between 1525 and 1660. Continuing persecution in Europe was largely responsible for the mass emigrations to North America by the Amish, Hutterites, and Mennonites.

    - wiki -
     
  5. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    [​IMG]

    An Amish family riding in a traditional Amish buggy in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania
     
  6. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    [​IMG]

    Jesus was a carpenter
     
  7. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Oh, I'm sorry, I should have supplied the reference.

    This is from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
    "The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation." (2,2,1, paragraph 1257)
    That is our Scripture, so as such not open to abrogation.

    "Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament" (ibid)
    Here the is room for movement, as it were: necessary for those whohear the Word and are capable of making a moral choice. As many are precluded from the former, and children are from the latter, one might argue that baptism is not a condition of children entering heaven.

    "The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude."
    Again, Christ insisted, more than once, on the necessity of baptism.

    "God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments." (ibid)
    Self-evident. God is free to baptise whomsoever He wills, which we call 'baptism in the spirit'

    "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery." (paragraph 1260)
    So the unbaptised are not excluded from paradise, but that is according to the will of God, it is not for us to refute the words of Christ.

    "As regards regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them" (paragraph 1261)

    As SufiPhilosophy would say, that's cherry-picking. Context, as you say, is everything.

    Only God, and the human heart can answer that.

    The Primordial Sin, if you like, the sin of Adam and Eve, was disobedience. The result was mortality. As the Hebrew Scriptures say "But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat. For in what day soever thou shalt eat of it, thou shalt die the death." (Genesis 2:17). They did, and thus that was their fate, a fate suffered by all humanity: "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread till thou return to the earth, out of which thou wast taken: for dust thou art, and into dust thou shalt return." (3:19)
     
  8. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    Strange. How come Almighty God only forgives those that believe in Christ?
    That has nothing to do with "original sin".
    ..at least, that's what it appears to mean. Otherwise the whole of mankind would be going to paradise :)
     
  9. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    It would be, if it were true ... Then again, it would be equally strange if Surah 3:85 applied strictly to the letter:
    And whoever desires other than Islam as religion—never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers.

    In that instance, i would agree with Ibn Arabi that 'Islam' in that context, does not apply to the religious institution, but to 'submission'. In like manner, those who die in ignorance of Christ are neverthless not excluded, on the basis that they desire the good and repent their ills.

    Other scholars draw a distinction between the "saved" and "those who will attain success", that righteous non-Muslims will neither enter heaven nor hell, but will reside in araf.
    (source: wiki)

    We can only hope that is the case.
     
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  10. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    84 Say (O Muhammad): We believe in God and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and that which was vouchsafed unto Moses and Jesus and the Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered.

    85 And whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to God) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.

    - Qur'an 'Family of Imran' -

    Again, what has this got to do with Adam & Eve?
    What has this got to do with "God" purposely sacrificing Himself on a cross?
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2021
  11. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Regarding my reference to Surah 3:85, I thought I'd made the point that, according to the source, scholars differ on the outcome.

    Some believe that Jews and Christians were OK until the advent of the Prophet, at which point it is through accepting Islam that salvation is possible. Other argue otherwise.

    The two are intimately connected.

    It is our belief that Christ took upon Himself the sin of the world and offered Himself up to the Father as sacrifice, so that, "what we had lost in Adam – namely, to be according to the image and likeness of God – that we might recover in Christ Jesus" (Irenaeus Against Heresies 3, 18, 1).

    Irenaeus proposed the recapitulation theory, working from St Paul, 1 Corinthians 15:21-22
    "For by a man (Adam) came death, and by a man (Jesus) the resurrection of the dead. And as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive."

    +++

    I'm loathe to continue this discussion on the Islam Board, as it necessarily involves affirming truths of Christian doctrine – the Death and Resurrection – that Islam denies. I cannot help that, but would feel happier, if you choose to continue this discussion, to do so on neutral territory, as it were, perhaps on the Comparative Studies board? We might even attempt a 'structured debate' ... :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2021
  12. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    I know all that..
    It is not relevant to a non-Christian not going to paradise UNLESS "they desire the good and repent their ills" as
    you said in your last post.

    There is no need to reply. You know very well that the doctrine of "original sin" and "God dying on a cross" make no sense to me WHATSOEVER .. and I imagine, never will.

    Why never will? ..because It is not logical. The Qur'an has a logical explanation as regards these issues,
    so what will make me change my mind except perhaps senility? ;)

    + + + + +

    It is all about the word sin, I would say.
    Can somebody else bear our sins for us on the Day of Judgement?

    Maybe .. does God need to pretend to be one of His creatures and die for that to happen?
    Weird !
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2021
  13. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    I beg for God's forgiveness. I am a sinner. I don't mean to be rude.
    I believe that the Qur'an is true, and the author is none but God.

    I believe that if the Qur'an was corrupted that He would send us another Prophet.
    I have yet to see where it is wrong or contradictory. I know some people might think it is,
    but I have explanations that satisfy me that it is not.

    I am not "forcing anyone to believe". People are free to believe what they like.
    I have poor health. I have to continually fight to survive. I am not able to do
    very much physically, atm.
     
  14. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    One-third of the world people would say yes, God can. Regardless of, and certainly not subject to, what other religions think about it and with all the obvious complexity of Christian faith. Which is why @Thomas has invited moving the debate to a new, neutral forum?

    In order to continue towards shared debate and discussion on an interfaith website?
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2021
  15. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    Very sorry and concerned for your health. God be with you in the present
     
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  16. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    God, there is no god but Him. The Holy Sovereign.
    "There is no compulsion in religion. Truth is distinct from falsehood."
    - Qur'an -

    What point is there in forcing somebody to believe something?
    What is it that people fear? Isn't Almighty God enough for them?

    There is a huge difference between legislating the death penalty for heresy,
    and wishing for your brother what you wish for yourself.
    I don't care if it is an Islamic nation or a Christian nation, killing people for their beliefs
    is not according to God's will.

    Killing people for treason is another matter.
    However, I don't agree with policies such as Russia, who send agents to foreign countries
    to poison traitors. This is a step too far. I also question the intention of such nations.
    What are they hiding if not at war?
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2021
  17. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Indeed, does not Islam say the same thing?

    That's your faith, your journey, and you are applauded for it.

    My position on my faith, in a nutshell.

    May Allah bless you and help you in this blessed month of Ramadan.
     
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  18. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    Yes, but it does not claim that sins are forgiven by "a dying atonement".
    The only way that I can see that Jesus suffering on a cross has blessed mankind, is that it has brought
    attention to his plight.
    Yes, it was decreed by God, but his being put on a cross was cruel and unwarranted and God
    knows best why people believe what they do about its significance.

    Thankyou. God has blessed us both, I don't doubt that.

    Thankyou Thomas :)
    ..and may God bless you too.
     
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  19. Tone Bristow-Stagg

    Tone Bristow-Stagg Active Member

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    No, it is not you. ;)

    It is just the conversation is not really world embracing, even when you have people posting that say there is only One God.

    Mostly we argue over the God made up in our own mind.

    If it was One God we talked about, we would find that God in all things and especially in all God given Faiths.

    Regards Tony
     
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  20. Tone Bristow-Stagg

    Tone Bristow-Stagg Active Member

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    All charity done for the Love of God and humanity is to be applauded.

    It is the selfless act that is of God.

    Regards Tony
     
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