Evolution is Unscientific

necessary for surviving difficult situations.
possibly, but based on everything I learned in my evolutionary psychology class, a trait doesn't have to be ipso facto necessary for survival to develop. The trait or its precursors only have to be useful for getting genes into successive generations. Evolution is about the survival of genes.
 
And I'm sure quadratic equations were required survival traits.

:rolleyes:
The ability to problem solve makes it more likely your genes will get into the next generation.
The ability to problem solve even better makes it even more likely more of your genes will get into subsequent generations.
The ability to engage in very complex problem solving makes it EVEN MORE likely your genes will survive for generations.
Inheriting those genes and thus having such an ability makes it possible later for people to come up with complex equations.
 
possibly, but based on everything I learned in my evolutionary psychology class, a trait doesn't have to be ipso facto necessary for survival to develop. The trait or its precursors only have to be useful for getting genes into successive generations. Evolution is about the survival of genes.
OK, but one has to admit, typical teaching of evolution is about adaptation for survival...it's like a mantra. And for the most part seems (without hard evidence - pardon the pun regarding fossils) to be a legitimate argument.
 
The ability to problem solve makes it more likely your genes will get into the next generation.
The ability to problem solve even better makes it even more likely more of your genes will get into subsequent generations.
The ability to engage in very complex problem solving makes it EVEN MORE likely your genes will survive for generations.
Inheriting those genes and thus having such an ability makes it possible later for people to come up with complex equations.
Yes...but it still doesn't explain symbolic thinking and reasoning. One can be involved in complex problems without any symbols...up the creek without a paddle? And there's no guarantee one's mate would be equally cunning or mentally capable, or that the trait would pass on to progeny. One could argue a female may more easily control / steer / direct a more docile male. And there's always the threat of physical violence, the bigger they come the harder they hit. Not advocating, simply stating animal fact.
 
possibly, but based on everything I learned in my evolutionary psychology class, a trait doesn't have to be ipso facto necessary for survival to develop. The trait or its precursors only have to be useful for getting genes into successive generations. Evolution is about the survival of genes.
Beg to differ. Evolution is more than that. A squid changing color is a mechanism to get food.
 
There is still Koinophilia to account for as I recently posted:

...and in the past I linked about Cuckolding. A cunning female may mate with a male she believes more capable while convincing a more docile male she can control to provide for and raise the child that is not his progeny.

So the matter is nowhere near cut and dried pertaining specifically to human evolution of the past 20K years or so.

Mental "evolutionary changes" might not show physically outside, but the mating preference will be towards one who looks quite similar. And this is where evolution on the whole challenges itself, because evolutionary changes that do show physical differences will by default be on the minority end of the mating spectrum, suggesting that it is almost impossible for evolution to take place as it is commonly presented. In other words, obvious physical changes are more apt to be dismissed as mates.

So something isn't adding up. Best case scenario, I would think these "hard and fast" rules are not really so hard and fast, and evolutionary changes obviously can take place very quickly in geologic time.
 
So the matter is nowhere near cut and dried pertaining specifically to human evolution of the past 20K years or so.
.. (did not understand) .. and evolutionary changes obviously can take place very quickly in geologic time.
Yeah, human psychology is complicated. There are many examples of three-somes in any society.
.. (did not understand)
Will these happen in 10 years/ 100 years/1000 years? What is your guess? :)
 
typical teaching of evolution is about adaptation for survival..
I don't know that it is. The most recent course I took on it was the evolutionary psychology class I mentioned, which was years ago, and in the explanation about how genes are adaptive if they create traits that make it more likely the genes will get into the next generation and beyond -- that explanation was offered as a clarification to the commonly repeated but incomplete idea that genes were adaptive for survival as if survival itself were the goal. I don't remember the professor's exact words. However, it clicked things into place for me, as he explained that survival was not really a goal in itself, but survival long enough to pass genes into the next generation. That the adaptation is for (if it were for a goal) the survival and replication of THE GENE. I saw the logic, and how it can be plausible that evolution is a so-called "blind" process -- not necessarily driven by a conscious goal on anyone's part (except when humans bred animals for traits, then those traits would survive because the humans would make sure traits they liked were bred for and therefore the genes ended up in subsequent generations) but in the wild, any gene that ends up in the next generation will lead to the traits being in the next generation, and if that trait or any trait associated with the gene makes it more likely for reproduction to occur, then the survival of the gene is insured. Reproduction and protection of offspring until they are of reproductive age is the "goal" of the gene... but really the mechanism by which the gene survives.

Anyway my understanding was forever updated. I no longer conceive of evolution being entirely about adaptation for survival. Survival to what end I would say. As I now realize a gene is adaptive if its traits get it into subsequent generations. If it means that creatures survive only long enough to reproduce, in some species, that works.
 
Yes...but it still doesn't explain symbolic thinking and reasoning. One can be involved in complex problems without any symbols...up the creek without a paddle? And there's no guarantee one's mate would be equally cunning or mentally capable, or that the trait would pass on to progeny. One could argue a female may more easily control / steer / direct a more docile male. And there's always the threat of physical violence, the bigger they come the harder they hit. Not advocating, simply stating animal fact.
Until someone with abstract reasoning skills and the ability to manipulate symbols ends up gathering wealth, settling disputes, averting war, all in such a way that his/her progeny and the progeny of their near relatives survive long enough to reproduce and more of the babies survive because they have a stockpile of grain and a stable system for distributing it and resolving disputes and safety from greedy neighbors due to their bartering skills, and safety from predators due to their own cunning and ability to abstract and predict the raiding patterns of both wild predators and crazy neighbors, thus preparing for or averting deadly raids, and more of them survive and have kids who survive to have kids and the village gets bigger and more of the genes get passed to the next generation and more of the newborns survive to reproductive age and then...
 
I don't know that it is. The most recent course I took on it was the evolutionary psychology class I mentioned, which was years ago, and in the explanation about how genes are adaptive if they create traits that make it more likely the genes will get into the next generation and beyond..
My favorite subject - evolutionary psychology.

"You find that people cooperate, you say, 'Yeah, that contributes to their genes' perpetuating.' You find that they fight, you say, ‘Sure, that's obvious, because it means that their genes perpetuate and not somebody else's. In fact, just about anything you find, you can make up some story for it."
- Noam Chomsky -

Ha ha ;)
 
My favorite subject - evolutionary psychology.

"You find that people cooperate, you say, 'Yeah, that contributes to their genes' perpetuating.' You find that they fight, you say, ‘Sure, that's obvious, because it means that their genes perpetuate and not somebody else's. In fact, just about anything you find, you can make up some story for it."
- Noam Chomsky -

Ha ha ;)
He is, I suppose, referring to the speculative nature of evolutionary psychology.
That does not mean they are wrong or make poor arguments or arguments without evidence.
Gordon Gallup, the professor I was referring to earlier, presented lots of data in class that he had gathered from research.
Such researchers do their best to test their arguments -- the make a prediction, then see if the data they can gather support it.
I feel bad not having a more concrete example to offer. It was years ago I took the class, and I haven't really kept up with his books.
 
Gordon Gallup, the professor I was referring to earlier, presented lots of data in class that he had gathered from research.
Such researchers do their best to test their arguments

We can look at the variety of life today, it had to come into existence somehow. The 'How' is the big question. There are millions of species with eyes, lungs, muscles, etc, but we can't test how these first came into existence. The ancient fossil records give us something to work with. This is not very helpful with soft tissues in eyes, muscles, hearts etc. We have to supply a lot of guesswork.
 
Until someone with abstract reasoning skills and the ability to manipulate symbols ends up gathering wealth, settling disputes, averting war, all in such a way that his/her progeny and the progeny of their near relatives survive long enough to reproduce and more of the babies survive because they have a stockpile of grain and a stable system for distributing it and resolving disputes and safety from greedy neighbors due to their bartering skills, and safety from predators due to their own cunning and ability to abstract and predict the raiding patterns of both wild predators and crazy neighbors, thus preparing for or averting deadly raids, and more of them survive and have kids who survive to have kids and the village gets bigger and more of the genes get passed to the next generation and more of the newborns survive to reproductive age and then...
If I'm not mistaken, I think the human female has a much better developed mental capacity for conversation. Case in point, guys generally don't like to sit around complain. I prefer to solve problems, not complain about them. I've known gals who appeared to me to be seemingly content to complain to each other, rather than solve a problem. I know I'm not alone in this observation.

Now this is preferences, there are always exceptions, but generally speaking I would say this is true in my experience.

There must be some direct psychological connection between vocal communication and that door into rational thought. Words have meanings, have always had meanings, even before writing. A screech conveys a far different message than a coo does.

Another anomaly with human evolution is the larynx, which made speech as we know it even possible. I never heard a good scientific explanation for that one, either. I seem to recall the consensus some years back was that Neandertal had a larynx that was midway between human and "ape," that limited their vocal range, I seem to recall that idea was challenged but I never heard the outcome and haven't pursued it.

Humans undoubted spoke before writing, but I don't see how the vocabulary could be extensive. When did "we" begin telling stories or transmitting family histories? And I mentioned some time in the past the role of deceptive speech, lying, deliberately and with intent...when did humans gain this "art?"
 
It works in all species. What we do other than procreation is meaningless to evolution. The salmon die after releasing eggs. The female spider eats the male spider after sex.
In the sense of physical reality you are correct, but there is more to reality than the physical alone.
 
We can look at the variety of life today, it had to come into existence somehow. The 'How' is the big question. There are millions of species with eyes, lungs, muscles, etc, but we can't test how these first came into existence. The ancient fossil records give us something to work with. This is not very helpful with soft tissues in eyes, muscles, hearts etc. We have to supply a lot of guesswork.
Stephen J Gould posited "Non-Overlapping Magisteria" for science and religion.

Science asks how? Religion asks why?

wiki said:
Francis Collins criticized what he saw as the limits of NOMA, arguing that science, religion, and other spheres have "partially overlapped" while agreeing with Gould that morals, spirituality and ethics cannot be determined from naturalistic interpretation.[14] This exceeds the greatest interconnection allowed by Gould in his original 1997 essay "Nonoverlapping Magisteria" in which he writes:

Each ... subject has a legitimate magisterium, or domain of teaching authority ... This resolution might remain all neat and clean if the nonoverlapping magisteria (NOMA) of science and religion were separated by an extensive no man's land. But, in fact, the two magisteria bump right up against each other, interdigitating in wondrously complex ways along their joint border. Many of our deepest questions call upon aspects of both for different parts of a full answer—and the sorting of legitimate domains can become quite complex and difficult.[2]
-emphasis mine, from the wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-overlapping_magisteria
 
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