What, who, or where is God not?

Discussion in 'Belief and Spirituality' started by Cino, Jul 19, 2021.

  1. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    "G!d" is a name given to a Great Unknowable.

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    So why do these cave paintings exist? They were not painted in the living spaces, they were done deep in the dark recesses that humans did not occupy on a regular basis. Why go there in the first place?, or at all?

    What drove archaic humans across four continents we know of to pursue this artistic activity for tens of thousands of years? What possible purpose could it serve?
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2021
  2. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Psilocybin, Ayahuasca, Fly Agaric, Mescaline, Morning Glory, Datura, Opium, Angel Trumpet, Jimson Weed, Belladonna...and for that matter Alcohol, Tobacco, Coffee and Tea. Why have humans sought out these poisonous substances for hundreds of generations?

    Prehistoric Drugs. (ancient-wisdom.com)

    Culture, Religion, Art - bound together, inseparable.

    I deliberately did not say G!d. But I must ask then, what is Religion? If Religion is so necessary, so ubiquitous, so universal, so widespread and encompassing, so tied with Culture and reflected in Art, why was Religion ever devised to begin with, if not to reach with a part of the human psyche to connect with an unseen part of reality? This wasn't a passing fad or local development, by 40 thousand years ago all Archaic Humans had developed similar Religio-Artistic expressions.

    Whether a person calls it G!d or not is irrelevent. Call it "Bob" for all I care. These Archaic Peoples without exception, living hand to mouth as hunter gatherers, who did not have time or energy to waste on frivolous pursuits, ALL came to the same conclusion. Something is there. We can't see it, but we can intuit it, and in fleeting moments under the right circumstances, at least some people can experience it... there must be something there if all of humanity for over 30 thousand years reached out to "Bob" in the same basic manner.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2021
  3. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    The three oldest human races are the San people of South Africa, Sami (or Lapp) people of Northern Europe and the Ainu people of Northern Japan and Kamchatka.

    San Religion:
    San religion - Wikipedia

    Sami Religion:
    Sámi people - Wikipedia

    Ainu Religion:
    Ainu people - Wikipedia

    Even allowing for some infiltration and influence from more modern religions (Christianity, Norse Paganism, Shinto), traditionalism still underlies these cultures, and a simple and similar pattern shows itself.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2021
  4. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Search, be your own guru.

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    Specialization and its effects (living style). Specialization does not always help. Things can come to a rude halt.
    Your opinion is not quite correct. You should perhaps repent.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2021
  5. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Search, be your own guru.

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    I think those who did this were shamans, smart people, who expected other people to bring the best portions of the kill without themselves making any effort.
    Why do people today use drugs, alcohol or tobacco. To get a kick. That was why even 40,000 years ago.
    Add Zoroaster. IMHO, they spoke to enjoy the benefit of (religious) leadership. Only Jesus failed. Truth is a different matter. Did they have any evidence for what they said?
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2021
  6. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Nice dodge, but it is avoiding the issue.

    The shaman came very late in the game, so your thought is incorrect. The oldest evidence of a Shaman only dates about 12K years ago.
    This flip answer is not only culturally condescending and prejudicial, it completely ignores the psychological science behind why, and the specific effects of the named entheogenic substances. To get a "kick" archaic humans could have eaten anything with sugar like honey or fruit...and while they did, they also learned to convert those sugars into alcohol for an entirely different "trip."

    Why did humans begin to consume grain? Humans did not evolve to consume grain, we are not physically equipped to consume grain, we are not ruminants. Yet grain has become a staple because of the effect on the brain.

    There is a great deal more WIDESPREAD circumstantial evidence to support "Bob" than there is to support "no god." While I can agree the concept was later anthropomorphized and abused, and the masses left those pursuits to specialized leaders (beginning with the shaman) who later took advantage of that as a form of power and leadership, all of this I've mentioned predated all of that. I would agree with you there is no anthropomorphized god, but that does not preclude "Bob."

    Why did the Hindu faith begin? What are its roots? What purpose does it serve? If no "Bob," why bother? Was it a bunch of "whys guys" sitting around philosophically and mentally trying to outdo one another to see who could sound the "most enlightened" with nothing to back them up? That would seem like a terrible waste of effort to me, and likely to others as well who would begin to see through the ruse. So there must have been some underlying foundation, no?
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2021
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  7. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium अहं ब्रह्मास्मि

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    I've designated by bedroom closet a "God-free zone." If you've saw my wardrobe, you'd know why.

    I echo what @juantoo3 said in post #2. ;)

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  8. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    It's obvious that homo sapiens has asked questions of existence and since earliest times invoked a divine agency.

    The question is whether modern scientific knowledge of a small part of the (absolutely incredible) mechanism of nature completely annuls the divine?
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2021
  9. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Search, be your own guru.

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    I think Shamans have existed in all human history if not earlier. Remember that even Neanderthals covered their dead with red ochre.
    Even monkey and elephants like to get drunk. There is no dearth of rotting fruits in forests.
    Saving ourselves from predators was the first concern and that was not easy. Even if a kill was made it could be taken away by lions, tigers, leopards, cheetahs, wolves, hyenas etc. India had all of them. It was not possible to have a full non-vegetarian diet all the time. We were not always that all-mighty. Humans have always foraged for fruits, roots and grain, anything that will fill their stomach. Women generally doing that kind of work while the men hunted.

    Roots of Hinduism are also in shamans. The idea of a God helping you, is reassuring, even if false. The bunch of 'why's guys' developed later. Some rejected the existence of God as early as 3000 years ago (RigVeda - "The Gods are later than this world's production. Who knows then whence it first came into being?" https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv10129.htm). Even God people had nothing to back them up. That is why Samkhya philosophy developed 'Nirishwaravada' (Doctrine of non-existence of God - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samkhya#Arguments_against_Ishvara's_existence). Vaisheshika (the Hindu atomic theory) said every thing is because of atoms.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2021
  10. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Since "history" began with the invention of writing, 3400 BC +/- in Mesopotamia (any earlier is "pre-historic" by definition), and the earliest evidence of Shaman is about 10K BC, I think that statement is accurate.
    That did not require a Shaman. :D
    So do wasps, bees, various birds and ants. I had thought I read of one species of ant that actually manufactured fermented fruit, but can't seem to find the info. My point was that humans began to purposely ferment fruit to purposely create alcohol...something other animals (possible exception of the ants I mentioned) do not do.
    This story is no different across all of Eurasia, Africa and Australia. The story is no different than every other human had to face. In other words...yeah, so? All Archaic Humans faced the exact same challenges and still found it important enough to paint cave walls. Some (Sami, Ainu) added the complications of living in deep cold, and are likely where dogs (wolves) entered the picture coexisting with humans. Neandertal as well toughed it out in the cold.

    So your point of view is based in other persons' thoughts and not personal experience?
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2021
  11. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Search, be your own guru.

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    Then how did they arrive at this thought? Someone must have advised them.
    Yeah, humans everywhere faced this problem of predators. The Sami must have faced tigers, wolves and bears and at some time in history, mammoths. Sami added their ballads, extempore poetry, much in the way of SamaVeda hymns. I always wonder if there was a connection.
    The personal evidence is that I have not, in my 78 years of life, found any evidence of existence of God, soul, heaven, hell, That is what many other people have believed in history and believe even today. God is defeated in the field of evidence.
     
  12. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Evidence yes, experience no. :) My personal experience is insufficient evidence for anyone else, and quite sufficient for myself. I've sought evidence to prove my experience for years, and all I have is the vast quantity of circumstantial evidence across 40 thousand years and 4 Continents...but that is considerably more than the evidence to make me deny my experience.
    It was impossible for them to arrive at the thought themselves by experience?
     
  13. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Search, be your own guru.

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    With me, God lost the war of evidence.
    Generally, the shamans / prophets / sons / messengers / manifestations / mahdis establish and define what people come to believe. If they were capable of thinking for themselves, then they would have seen the gaping holes in what as professed.
     
  14. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    That is why religion does not define what I believe. Religion to me is an effort to try to understand what I experience. "G!d" to you, may have lost a war of evidence, but there is no way I can deny my personal experience of "Bob." The strawman doesn't work, and isn't convincing.

    Interesting to me your religious writings seem to define what you have come to believe....pots and kettles? Could it be your mind is so clouded with thoughts (both your own and those of others) that you have forgotten how to be "in the moment" to experience life all around you - seen and unseen?
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2021
  15. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    Bingo
     
  16. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    Religions are trying to explain spiritual laws and truths to human minds in limited human language and material images. God is not limited to religion, imo -- especially not to one religion?
     
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  17. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Exactly. Religious texts by their very nature are symbolic. The very act of writing is drawing upon agreed to symbols. This is what the Buddhist concept of differentiating the menu from the meal is all about.

    Humans have not always thought in symbols. Young children prior to and as they first enter school think in pictures, not symbolic words. Learning alphabets and numerals changes that...not that that is a bad thing; but there is an innocent, pre-cognitive connection to the Earth and all within it that is quickly lost and outgrown. Most adults don't even remember what it was like, it is buried so deep in their memory. So the very idea of dismissing one set of religious texts with another is ridiculous to me, every one of them is symbolic and has only symbolism to offer...none has "truth" because truth is not contained in words, words can only point to truth. Pre-historic, Archaic humans thought in pictures. What we see painted on cave walls is an early precursor to symbolism and symbolic thought - aka "consciousness."
     
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  18. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    But 'true' religions do contain and encapsulate truth, imo. Religious leaders do not argue, they agree. It is abused and misunderstood, for many reasons. Difficult to find words, really ...

    It's a very complicated thing
     
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  19. powessy

    powessy Active Member

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    The simplest explanation of what god is not would be this. If everything you can see and can not see was to be placed into a box, that box would be inside of gods mind. The box and all of it's contents are not god they are inside of him and he can become anything inside of himself to become something here. So god could be anything, anywhere but only one thing. You and me and everything else in the box has to become itself to become something again and again but god can be anything in the box to become himself here or again.

    God free zones are all things in the universe except for who he/she/it is.

    Are people the smartest of all creations in the universe, he would I think try to be something that can figure things out more then anything else, where ever that might be.

    As far as numbers are concerned it would be easier to just remove him from the equation as he is not really part of everything here, for he is outside of who we are.


    powessy
     
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  20. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic) Admin

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    When I dream, I am usually one of the characters, but the other ones are also me, in that they occur in my mind and act out parts of me that are not conscious.

    Is that analogous to what you are saying? Then God-free zones would be what God is unconscious of?
     
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