Question for Abrahamic Followers: Is Heaven Really What we Want?

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions' started by HugoZyl, Jan 27, 2022.

  1. HugoZyl

    HugoZyl Established Member

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    Dear Cino

    I trust this post finds you well. Thank you so very much for asking about my Guru. It is by far the favorite topic of discussion for anyone who has received the infinite Grace to have a genuine Guru. Oh, where to begin...

    From my humble experience, the disciple-Guru relationship is not interpersonal, rather it is inter-divine. It is not based on the mind interpreting words heard by the ears, rather, it is based on bliss. Supreme joy which is beyond anything ever felt before in your life. I barely remember a quarter of what my Guru actually spoke to me about; but the bliss which enveloped me as He did so is unforgettable. Funny enough, the first time I heard Him speaking, He was talking to somebody about liver disease! But the effect on me as I heard about liver-failure was Divine. It must be experienced to believe. I would cut off my own hand to be able to make another person experience that serenity but it is not to be...

    That is my lowly answer which in no way can do justice to ''What were your reasons and inferences to accept their teachings as authoritative?''. I am His eternal slave.

    May Grace roost on your head eternally
     
  2. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    By choice?

    Your guru was who? Of what sect? I missed that.

    So do you talk at work and in life like you do here?

    Is this level of praise and piety normal for you in daily life....or just online?
     
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  3. HugoZyl

    HugoZyl Established Member

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    Dear wil. May the dear Lord shine His loving Face upon you.

    In my humble view, friends are those who are attached to one's ego, whereas ''your enemy hates your ego, which the seeker wants to kill; thus, like the anvil to the goldsmith, he is actually a friend.'' (a Ramana Maharshi quote) We should be very careful about friendship. Either prefer to have enemies rather than friends, or see no distinction between friends and enemies. So I believe.

    Concerning one's Guru; in no uncertain terms, the Guru is a manifestation of God. He is ego-less, Divine, liberation from the cycle of birth and death hangs around His Feet. Prostrating before Him fulfills the purpose of existence. He has no sect. Or if He had, I never asked, and He never told me. He is the Image of Blissful Conscious Existence. As for 'who', He said I could call Him Tony, but I do not know if that was His real name or not. Please feel free to ask if anything remains unclear.

    Concerning work and life; by the will of God, I have probably been given 15 different jobs over the last 12 years or so (this body is 32 years old now). As to talking in a pious way, it depends on the job. At one time God made me a sailor on a passenger boat - this way of talking was not suitable there - but at another time I was made a janitor at a Temple - there this way of talking was acceptable but looked upon as strange.

    Dear wil; ''The human birth is difficult to get - a man is born in vain who having got it, does not attempt to realize God in this life.'' That was my Guru's instruction.
     
  4. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    I take we are not talking about the possibility of one sperm finding its way into an egg at.the opportune time.but...souls waiting on the other side? Where have they been born before winning the human on earth lottery?

    I have tons of friends...are they attached to my ego or I to theirs?

    Enemies I have very few....folx I prefer not to engage with that would be more...but I surely don't see them as enemies.

    32.... Half my age...there was a.time I would think...oh to be that age again...but I surely would.not.want to give up what has happened since then as I have enjoyed the ride.
     
  5. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic) Admin

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    Thanks for sharing that. So your reasons were reasons of the heart? I can see that, I understand what it means to experience Love.

    When you say "eternal", can you go into detail a bit more? I'm asking because another deep Eastern teaching is about the transience and impermanence of everything that exists depending on something else.
     
  6. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    I have no idea what heavens you are talking about now, so I shall bow out ...

    Actually, referencing the OP, "Question for Abrahamic Followers: Is Heaven Really What we Want?" I'm assuming you're talking about the eschaton as seen in the Abrahamic traditions.

    I am inclined to suggest the 'heaven' you've been talking about is not the Christian heaven.

    This indicates 'ego' (I mean a sense of identifying yourself with one thing/body/state to exclusion of all else).
    Then that is not heaven as we understand it. I'm not sure where you're getting your information from. Can you offer examples?

    Citizens of Heaven do not give help to those who are suffering
    But there are instances in the Tradition that suggest they do, perhaps you are unaware of them?

    Citizens of Heaven all have the same level of joy or pleasure.
    Again, there are indications in Scripture to the contrary.

    I'm sure your heart's in the right place, but if you're addressing Abrahamics directly, might I suggest you make some effort to understand their understandings, as you seem to have drawn some erroneous conclusions?

    No offence to either you or your guru, but one really can't address a question of the eschaton to 'Abrahamics' as there are significant differences between the Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2022
  7. RabbiO

    RabbiO הרב יונה בן זכריה

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    @Thomas -
    Gee, I wish I had said that last paragraph. Actually, I did… sort of. Just, perhaps, not quite as well.
     
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  8. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    I was thinking of what you said when I wrote it – we polished it between us!
     
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  9. RabbiO

    RabbiO הרב יונה בן זכריה

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    Interfaith at work….. and no worship involved!
     
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  10. HugoZyl

    HugoZyl Established Member

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    Dear wil; it is a pleasure indeed to have your ear again.

    The reply to this question would be standard teachings on reincarnation and karma. These teachings are explained much better by other sources online, so please excuse me for passing the buck. Here is a link if desirable (https://www.spiritualresearchfoundation.org/spiritual-research/afterlife/life-after-death/)

    The ideas that have been given to me concerning friendship are to look at it like this: You have a friend. Why is he your friend? Because he thinks you are a knowledgeable person, also nice to talk with, witty, trustworthy, knows when to be quiet, and an all-round good guy. This makes us think that being knowledgeable, nice, etc. are good qualities we should retain. Our ultimate goal in life is experiencing bliss. Bliss is found in the soul. The human character, emotions, memories, thoughts, intelligence and self-identification (which for sake of brevity can be called 'ego') covers the soul like a shroud. Thus, unusual as it may sound, friends are 'enemies'. They make it more difficult to get rid of ego. Whereas people who dislike us will refer to aspects of our ego in a negative light, and thus makes it easier to get rid of.

    Just imagine this situation: you suddenly get the news that 20 of your friends were together on a bus, there was an accident, they are all dead. How would you feel? In another situation you suddenly get the news that there was a bus accident somewhere in Africa, and 20 people died. How would you feel? Comparing our reactions, most would feel worse about situation 1. Why? Because of ego! That says it all!

    We are honored to be able to harvest rich fruits of insight from people such as yourself who have walked ahead of us and can warn us of dangers that lie ahead.

    May the blissful soul shine in your life to the glory of God

    Dearest Cino; so nice to be able to communicate with you again. You come across as a person who is skillful in knowing when to speak and when to refrain. I lack this quality.

    Concerning the experience of being in a Guru's presence. Words fail. Imagine the feeling you would experience if you saw a house completely on fire, then a woman comes rushing up shouting that her baby is inside, and she runs full speed literally into the fire without any thought for herself... The Guru's presence is a much stronger ''feeling'' than that.

    Concerning ''eternal''; I read you had experience of Theravada Buddhism. What those dear people would call ''non-self'' is what some would call ''eternal''. But having these BIG concepts alone are of little value. The words can actually cause more harm than good. The best then is for us to do the spirituality until we can experience ''non-self'' for ourselves. :-D

    May peace fill you and your dear children's hearts


    Dearest Thomas; what a joy fills my heart to write to you again. Thank you so much for your compliment concerning my heart, and your detailed responses to the thread.

    I feel now that you are correct in that I addressed the question poorly. My intention was just to look into the matter of how in Western religion the Heavenly Beings are looked up to, whereas in Eastern religion they are looked down upon. This issue has given me both curiosity and worry, but I see now that I went about the wrong way to address it. Please forgive me, and thank you again for your sophisticated responses.

    May the love of God and the Communion of the Saints carry us all
     
  11. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Lol, I just had 20 of my friends put on a bus and they made their way to the afterlife.... I should be happy about that right?

    Bliss is definitely a state I have enjoyed...although I am sure it wasn't the your highest level. If ya search bliss posts by me here you should find a few.

    And yes, I enjoy the exchange of ideas with friends in person, not just online. I see most of have those scales of judgement...if someone tips the scales regarding conversation, amicable, we definitely hang out more than people who rub me the wrong way.

    Isnt that why you hung around your guru?
     
  12. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic) Admin

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    I used to live in an Asian country, and people there very much looked up to heavenly beings. But Asia is a large place and there are many religions, and your statement is very general. Can tell us more about your observations, give more context?
     
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  13. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic) Admin

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    What you report reminds me a lot of how a Sufi friend of mine speaks of his Sheikh.

    So maybe the "Abrahamic followers" are not as different from you as it may seem?

    I did some formal training under a Theravada teacher, yes. We never got into a guru type relationship, but that is not common in Theravada Buddhism, due to the rules which do not allow monastics to reveal any enlightened status to laypeople, especially in return for alms or other favors. I think this is a good arrangement in general, preventing much spiritual abuse, though it has its own shadow sides.

    All of that being said, I see what you are indicating by not-self, and since you mention Theravada, not-self, impermanence, and suffering are three of a kind. You seem to prefer the terms eternity and bliss and God to refer to them. As you point out, the words and concepts can be misleading, but I think in this instance, it it fairly straight forward.

    See, it would make things here a bit easier if you shared more about the specifics of the path you're on. In the end, we still have to use words and concepts to communicate, and having a reference point where you stand wrt words&concepts is useful.
     
  14. HugoZyl

    HugoZyl Established Member

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    Dearest Cino. May joy fill your heart.

    As far as my limited experience goes, if a person who is a dedicated mainstream believer of 'Hinduism' or Buddhism is asked if they want to go to Heaven. The answer will be 'no'. I feel there may again be misunderstanding over the term 'Heaven'. Please excuse me if I created this misunderstanding. It is being used by me here as the name of the lowest positive after-death dimension which can be reached pretty easily just by sincerely following common religious principles; i.e. accepting the Supreme Being, some daily devotions, doing righteousness, and not doing unrighteousness.

    In contrast to this, full-time dedicated mainstream Hindu's (i.e. devotees of Lord Vishnu, Lord Shiva and Mother Devi) and the largest sect of Buddhists (i.e. Northern Buddhism [Mahayana & Tibetan]) do not consider Heaven a good birth. The reason being that in Heaven no spiritual practice takes place due to the superabundance of joy, and after the Heaven body dies, the being has to return to earth again WITHOUT remembering their past knowledge of spirituality. Everything has to be relearned from scratch.


    As far as I have been allowed to learn, Sufism is not a mainstream form of Islam. I have never met a Muslim brother or sister who did not want to go to Paradise, but of course that is just my limited experience.

    As for the Path God has placed me on; I am completely common, run of the mill, cut and dried, dime a dozen, believer of God. I follow as I am told to follow without seeing any difference between the overall goal of ALL the mainstream religious Paths God has given us in His mercy.

    Thank you again for your patience with me. I am a grateful servant.
     

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