Born Again of Water and the Holy Spirit

Discussion in 'Belief and Spirituality' started by RJM, Apr 18, 2022.

  1. Geoffrey

    Geoffrey Established Member

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    I'm not sure that whether the Aramaic term did or did not have the same dual meaning is important. My point was that the conversation was recorded in Greek by an author who spoke both Greek and Aramaic and used both in other passages of his Gospel (judging from the list linked above).
     
  2. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    Just to repeat I am not saying Jesus directly references Eastern yoga, but is talking about the same inner alchemy
    But if the original conversation was in Aramaic, the point of misunderstanding could not have arisen?
     
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  3. Geoffrey

    Geoffrey Established Member

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    I know that the Taoists were concerned with exploring the body/spirt relationship (thinking of spirit as the animating force present in all of nature), as (from my admittedly rudimentary understanding) were Indian holy people. I have previously not heard that the ancient Jews had such concerns. My understanding is that early Jewish thought (including, I believe, the Jews of Jesus' time) believed that body and spirit were one unit that could not be separated (there was no independent soul), that when the body died, the body along with the spirit was removed from contact/communication with God, and that this gave rise to the belief in resurrection in one's original body.
     
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  4. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    Ah, but the Christians whose faith centres around being 'born again' don't think Jesus was just another Jewish teacher. They don't believe Jesus was limited by Jewish religion. They believe Jesus is the incarnation: Emmanuel -- God with us.
     
  5. Geoffrey

    Geoffrey Established Member

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    In John 3:5, Jesus corrects Nicodemus' misunderstanding. He goes on to say, "Do not marvel at what I said to you, "You must be born anew (or from above). " The wind ....." and when Nicodemus asks, "How can this be?" Jesus reprimands Nicodemus, saying, "Are you a teacher of Israel, and yet you do not understand this?"

    So whether it was in Aramaic or Greek, Jesus seemed to be pretty clear that he didn't mean that one need reemerge from one's mother's womb.
     
  6. Geoffrey

    Geoffrey Established Member

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    OH ..... Now I get it .... so modern Christians believe that Jesus as the Son of God was not bound by his Jewish roots and, therefore, his teaching could mean just about anything at all? Really? Not at any church I've ever attended!
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2022
  7. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    Yes. But I am looking at the words Jesus used. Water need not come into it? That is a term connected with inner alchemy. Or could it come from the Essene practice of baptism? I'm getting onto shaky ground with the Essene practices. John the Baptist was practicing baptism.
     
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  8. Geoffrey

    Geoffrey Established Member

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    From my Study Bible, it seems that the consensus of opinion is that "water" refers to baptism. Apparently, the water was a source of some discussion, since the Council of Trent officially recognized that the passage refers to baptism, saying that, "'water' is no metaphor, but a visible sign of the Spirit's invisible work in the sacrament."

    The authors of the Study Bible go on to mention that shortly after speaking with Nicodemus, Jesus and the disciples began a baptismal ministry in Judea (John 3:22, which says, "After this (the conversation with Nicodemus), Jesus and his disciples .......").
     
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  9. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    Mmmm
    That is the common interpretation used.

    But it may not be the right one to derive from Jesus's cryptic exchange with Nicodemus, and its strong relation to the inner fire and water referenced in the ancient practice of inner alchemy -- to give birth or transform the material man into a new immortal man.
     
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  10. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    It's interesting, that's all. I'm quite aware of how anyone can draw any meaning they want from the Bible, to support their own theory, however ...
     
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  11. Geoffrey

    Geoffrey Established Member

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    Like I may have said in an earlier post, the passage never really troubled me. Also, while I have read a bit about yogic and Taoist practices, I had not heard the term "inner alchemy" before reading this forum. I don't think that just because a practice is ancient that that also means it is universal. That the Indians and Chinese were concerned about the relationship between the human body and the cosmic forces does not mean that other cultures grew in that direction.
     
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  12. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    Here's one to start with:
    Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality
    It's very detailed

    When the spiritual foetus is formed by the ball of fire a white light from the heart illuminates all things and a great blaze of golden light appears; When all channels have been cleared the macrocosmic agent is made.

    The bright pearl illuminates the brain, making in nine turns the elixir. Only when a drop sinks down to the belly does one realise immortals live on earth.


    upload_2022-5-15_10-23-15.png

    The practice of turning the inner material lead into the immortal spiritual gold is often thought to be the heart of western alchemy, I believe?
    But again this is fixing Jesus as a cultural figure of his time and place. Christians go far beyond that historical Jesus. Again, I am not saying Jesus was directly referencing Eastern immortality yoga, but that he had knowledge of the same 'inner alchemy' and perhaps taught it to his close circle, including perhaps Nicodemus?

    I think many religions contain a kernel of 'inner wisdom' that is for the elect few, while the effects ripple out into the ordinary 'householder' world as general mores for good living. Certainly Christianity has achieved the latter. I think perhaps Confucianism is a similar 'social dilution' of the Taoist Neidan immortality yoga involving celibacy and intense meditation practices? But you may correct me there ...

    (edited to add picture)
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2022
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  13. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    Not limited by them
     
  14. Geoffrey

    Geoffrey Established Member

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    As far as Taoist practices in pursuit of immortality is concerned ... well, it never really interested me. Confucianism and Taoism are really miles apart. Neo-Confucianism is different though, if I remember correctly; "threatened" by the popularity of Taoism, it absorbed some Taoist principles that seem quite foreign to its roots.
     
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  15. powessy

    powessy Well-Known Member

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    I have read through this several more times and now I think I can see what Jesus is saying.

    I think he is saying that you have to be as I call it an allowed mind, or you have to be able to be born again. A person who has only been born once is only of spirit and flesh, and does not know which direction the wind blows. You have to become nothing here then become something again in order to see the kingdom of heaven, then you will understand the direction of the wind.

    I believe he is talking about reincarnation, flesh gives birth to flesh or I become myself again bob becomes bob again to become something like himself again. Spirit gives birth to spirit meaning I am both here and there at the same time. This also would then suggest that Jesus is in his second life already or came from above to become himself here.

    Jesus in this conversation is only talking of mortal worldly things, nothing he is saying to Nichodemus has anything to do with heavenly things.

    This is also why I ask questions regarding how people find thoughts about things when you have nothing teaching you things. I remember pieces and parts of who I was before this lifetime and I was born again to something here to find time and figure things out.

    I do not believe that baptism had anything to do with what he was saying it just means you have to be born to something here, water and spirit, or born of a womb.


    powessy
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2022
  16. powessy

    powessy Well-Known Member

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    I find this part very interesting. I have seen the five minds together to form a person. The image above teaches how your time comes together to allow you to find time in other timelines. Even though the image is in my mind incorrectly shown it is correct enough to understand the principle behind the thought.

    in the after the smaller minds fill up first and there should be five layers not three. 1,5,25,125,625. The 625 minds cannot become themselves until they find time inside the 125 minds it requires 5 minds to become something here. Ultimately you would want to find all your time to become all your minds to become the one sitting in the front.

    As for the after life we become something else to become ourselves there, is this the thoughts about inner alchemy they are trying to figure out. Flesh(lead) here to flesh(gold) there.

    powessy
     
  17. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    Perhaps take a look at the book?
     
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  18. Tone Bristow-Stagg

    Tone Bristow-Stagg Well-Known Member

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    Also one must add fire.

    Luke 3:16 John answered them all, “I baptize you with water. But one who is more powerful than I will come, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

    Regards Tony
     
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  19. powessy

    powessy Well-Known Member

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    I have looked at it a few times over the years just skimming each time. A lot of words to teach me about something I can do and see already. I am also already in the process of finding all of my time, you can do this in life or try to figure it out in death.

    Thank you for the link though, every time I want to reference this book, I have to find it again and then I forget to bookmark it.

    powessy
     

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