Modalism + Partialism = Trinitarianism?

[RJM]

Oh. Were you asking if I think that the wording of the Trinity doctrine was guided by God?

I was positing the possibility ... perhaps not the wording, but the concept

 

[Longfellow]

I was positing the possibility ... perhaps not the wording, but the concept

I'm still confused about what you're asking me. Can you start over and try again?

(later) You asked me:

"But is trinity a divine revelation, or just a human explanation?"

Does the church say that it's a divine revelation? If so, can you quote it for me in full context, or give me a link to where I can read about it?

 

[RJM]

I'm still confused about what you're asking me. Can you start over and try again?

The possibility exists that God really did reveal it -- that it is not necessarily a human concoction? Certainly many people believe that to be the case.

 

[Longfellow]

The possibility exists that God really did reveal it -- that it is not necessarily a human concoction? Certainly many people believe that to be the case.

A direct revelation from God? Does the church say that? I would say no to that.

Is what you're asking about a teaching of the church? If so, can you quote it for me in full context, or give me a link to where I can read about it? If not, it might take a lot of time and effort for both of us, for me to understand what you're asking me. I'll think about it some more, and try to think of what I can say that I haven't already said, that might answer your question.

 

[RJM]

Is what you're asking about a teaching of the church?

It is definitely a teaching of the Catholic Church: 'In nomine Patris et Filii Spiritus Sancti' (In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit) it's constantly repeated every day, all over the world.

I assumed it was taken for granted. I would need to consult the Catechism, at home to find quotes. I'll have a look when I have time?

 

[RJM]

@Longfellow
Sorry, I thought the trinity was taken for granted as a church teaching? I could be wrong...

You are obviously aware of the Apostles Creed:

I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and earth;
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son Our Lord,

Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.

He descended into Hell; the third day He rose again from the dead;
He ascended into Heaven, and sitteth at the right hand of God, the Father almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body and life everlasting.

And of the Nicene Creed that came later:

We believe in one God, the Father, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father,

God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God, begotten not made, one in being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven; by the power of the Holy Spirit
he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate suffered, died, and was buried. On the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified. He has spoken through the prophets.

We believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come.

Amen.

 

[Longfellow]

It is definitely a teaching of the Catholic Church. I would need to consult the Catechism, to find quotes. It's at home, I'll have a look when I have time

Thank you.

I can't think of anything to say that I haven't already said, that might answer your question. I'll just repeat here as much as I can remember. Sometimes people try to resolve what they see as contradictions in the scriptures by denying the authenticity of some parts of them, or interpreting them in ways that resolve the contradiction for them. For example, Jesus says things that only God can say truthfully, and does things that only God can do, but He also calls God "Father" and talks to Him, and about Him, in terms of an interpersonal relationship. That looks like a contradiction, and people try to resolve it sometimes by denying the authenticity of one passage or another, or interpreting them in ways that remove the contradiction for them. That deprives them of some of the knowledge, wisdom and power in the scriptures. I see the Trinity doctrine as a way to help people avoid that if they want to. For that purpose we could list all the passages where Jesus says things that only God can say truthfully and does things that only God can do; all the passages where He calls God "Father" and talks to Him, and about Him, in terms of an interpersonal relationship; and all the other passages about the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit as God and about the interpersonal relationships between them; but that might not serve that purpose as well as just saying that the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God, and that they are three distinct persons. Then, to ward off allegations of polytheism, we need to add that they are all the same God. I don't know what to think about where the idea first came from, but if it has the authority of the church behind it, it has the authority of the church behind it. Are you asking me what I think of the authority of the Roman Catholic Church?

 

[RJM]

Are you asking me what I think of the authority of the Roman Catholic Church?

No. However the Catholic Church, for all its failings, carried the message of Christ down the centuries, through darkest times. We wouldn't be talking about it otherwise

We are talking past one another. You are arguing from the assumption that it's all a made-up human edifice. All I'm saying -- ALL I'm saying -- is that you could be wrong. Perhaps Jesus Christ is just what He says?

Is what you're asking about a teaching of the church?

So, have we cleared this up?

 

[RJM]

I assumed it was taken for granted. I would need to consult the Catechism, at home to find quotes. I'll have a look when I have time?

Loads:

Catechism of the Catholic Church

 

[RJM]

The Catholic Church does believe the Trinity is revealed truth, through Christ's interaction with the Church established through Peter and Paul. Catholics believe Christ guides the Church, and works in and through the church.

(Bad churchmen not withstanding. The Holy Spirit is not defiled)

 

[RJM]

"For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many."
(Matthew 24:5)

 

[Longfellow]

The Catholic Church does believe the Trinity is revealed truth, through Christ's interaction with the Church established through Peter and Paul. Catholics believe Christ guides the Church, and works in and through the church.

(Bad churchmen not withstanding. The Holy Spirit is not defiled)

It looks to me like there’s some misunderstanding about something I said.

I'm reading this now:

The Best Guide for Understanding the Trinity

Maybe it will help me understand your question or what you're trying to say.

In the events of salvation, God the Trinity gives not merely “some thing,” but rather he gives himself: God the Father sends his Son and pours out his Holy Spirit. These two aspects (God is revealed in historical events, and in them he really gives himself to believers) are at the center of the revelation of the Trinity. They constitute a fundamental and characteristic trait of the evangelical faith that distinguishes it from other forms of knowledge and of religious experience.

The “stake,” so to say, of faith in the Trinity is salvation itself, the participation of the Church in the Trinitarian life. The revelation of the Trinity is ordered to this participation in the Trinitarian mystery that constitutes the Church. The structure or “disposition” of this revelation is well expressed by the collect of the feast of the Holy Trinity:

"God the Father, you who by sending into the world the Word of truth and the Spirit of sanctification have manifested to men your admirable mystery, give us in confessing the true faith to recognize the glory of the eternal Trinity, and to adore the Unity in the power of majesty."

The mystery of God has been revealed to us by the Father himself. This revelation is accomplished by the sending of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. By designating the Son as “Word of truth,” the prayer of the feast of the Holy Trinity signifies that the Son is sent into the world in order to make known the mystery of God. It belongs to the “Word” as such to make manifest and to reveal the true face of God, by a knowledge that transforms hearts.

By designating the Holy Spirit as the “Spirit of sanctification” (cf. Rom 1:4), the Church signifies that the revelation of God is accomplished in the gift of new life that is obtained by the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. The revelatory and sanctifying action of the Son and of the Holy Spirit finds its origin in the Father himself, because the Father is the Source of the sending of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, in such a way that the Son and the Holy Spirit reveal the mystery of the Source itself: the mystery of the Father.

This prayer likewise indicates the two aspects of our understanding of the mystery of God the Trinity in faith: the relations of the persons and their unity of being. The relations are signified by the theme of mission: the Son and the Holy Spirit come forth from the Father who “sends” them. The unity is especially associated with the divine power. The actions of the Son and of the Holy Spirit manifest their equality in power with the Father. The Son and Holy Spirit reveal, sanctify, and save. They perform actions that God alone can accomplish. Their divinity is revealed particularly in this power: the works of God make visible “his eternal power and deity” (Rom 1:20).

 

[Longfellow]

One reason it matters to me is that it might be a way to help prevent people from depriving themselves of some of the knowledge, wisdom and power in the scriptures, by denying or deforming what they are saying, trying to resolve what they see as contradictions between them.

Good observation, imo
But is trinity a divine revelation, or just a human explanation?

After reading the article that I quoted above, now I would say that the Trinity is a divine revelation, but the Trinity doctrine is a human explanation.

Ilater) From some of your posts, it looks to me like maybe you thought that I was arguing against the claims of the Catholic church. Nothing I said was intended that way.

 

[Longfellow]

Perhaps Jesus Christ is just what He says?

I agree. That's exactly what I think, that He is just what He says.

 

[powessy]

By "your trinity," do you mean the Trinity doctrine of Christianity? Maybe that's the only way it works for you, but it isn't the only way that it works for me.

Is there any other way that it can work? You are just as much the son as Jesus was, the difference only being how much time he could have inside him, and how many times he became himself.

Powessy

 

[powessy]

But the Trinity I'm talking about is before all determination, before all number, before multiplicity. Before created matter, before created natures, before minds.

I actually agree with a lot of what you're saying about the cosmos, but you're applying the same terms to God, and there, to me, they do not fit.

I have an equivalent sense of it, I don't don't see it your way. But then it's probably the case that neither of us see the real as it actually is, we're making sense of our gropings, our inspirations and our intuitions.

+++

I think, personally, 'mind' is a misnomer.

I think 'being' or 'self' is a better term, or at least, that's the term from where I am coming from.

In which case – everything is Self, in that everything is an instance of Self. Everything participates in Selfhood, but everything, all formal and all formless modes of being, all formal and all formless manifestation, does not constitute Self as such. Self is more than the totality of every self. Be it the biggest thing or the smallest, it's all Self, and the Selfhood of an atom is no more nor less than the Selfhood of a planet. It's the same Self. The Self doesn't increase or decrease.

Before all determination, before all number, before multiplicity, before created matter, before created natures, before minds.

These thoughts I ponder many times per day to understand how all came to be.

An interesting story and something no other person has ever seen or perhaps heard. One day while asking questions about nothing, I started to rub my eyes and then I was no longer here. I found myself in this huge space surrounded by these strange creatures. These creatures had the skin of many animals known and unknown. As I looked around they were all equally separated by space or themselves only but inside themselves nothing there. The space around them was absent of all things except for them and they were as far as I could see in all directions. To understand why these minds were called nothing is because they consumed all things around them until nothing remained not even time. Basically you have space with nothing inside it.


Before all determination and all the things you said above there was something though, space without time, void of all things. Here is how the story above is relative. You see nothing entered into gods mind to teach him nothing here and consumed all there was including time but god still was something, they could not teach him nothing here. I look at this thought always because the only thing here before all determination was space. God entered into nothing to teach them everything about themselves all the way inside themselves until they wanted to become something again.

Sorry for the story, I just think about this often and more lately along with the things they are trying to figure out.

No trinity only space before anything else.

Powessy

 

[RJM]

Before all determination, before all number, before multiplicity, before created matter, before created natures, before minds.

These thoughts I ponder many times per day to understand how all came to be.

An interesting story and something no other person has ever seen or perhaps heard. One day while asking questions about nothing, I started to rub my eyes and then I was no longer here. I found myself in this huge space surrounded by these strange creatures. These creatures had the skin of many animals known and unknown. As I looked around they were all equally separated by space or themselves only but inside themselves nothing there. The space around them was absent of all things except for them and they were as far as I could see in all directions. To understand why these minds were called nothing is because they consumed all things around them until nothing remained not even time. Basically you have space with nothing inside it.


Before all determination and all the things you said above there was something though, space without time, void of all things. Here is how the story above is relative. You see nothing entered into gods mind to teach him nothing here and consumed all there was including time but god still was something, they could not teach him nothing here. I look at this thought always because the only thing here before all determination was space. God entered into nothing to teach them everything about themselves all the way inside themselves until they wanted to become something again.

Sorry for the story, I just think about this often and more lately along with the things they are trying to figure out.

No trinity only space before anything else.

Powessy

@powessy
I have an understanding of the Adam and Eve story as the 'fall' of nature from Spirit. Men became natural animal beings, as we all are, with 'coats of skin' and had to make a living from nature, where before the Spirit provided all their needs. Of course we are still also Spirit beings.

Nature is pervaded by Spirit, yet nature is a separate, or sub-dimension, like a room in a house, limited by the walls of space and time, but still part of the greater house of Spirit that surrounds and contains the room. Death is the only way out of our room. But there are many other different rooms -- or states of existence -- that we may move to after we exit our timespace dimension of nature.

My Father's house has many mansions

Christ is Emmanuel, God with us -- the perfect man. Christ is the sinless bridge between God and man, or between Spirit and Nature. The Trinity is a way of expressing the relationship between Spirit and nature. Unfortunately people tend to attach too much literal meaning to the terms Father and Son.

I would like to repost the I Ching symbols for the Early and Late Heaven arrangement of trigrams. See Spoiler below.

The pure (spirit) polarity of the early heaven arrangement, with pure Yin and Yang on the vertical axis, gets all mixed up in the later heaven (nature) arrangement, and the vertical primal yin/yang polarity of Spirit is replaced in nature with fire and water on the vertical axis.

The tension of the mixed up polarities in the later heaven (nature) lead to constant change and movement

Spoiler: Yin Yang

It leads on to contemplation of gravity as Nature itself, that bonds and drags all nature down to death.

 

[muhammad_isa]

My Father's house has many mansions

Yes .. there is more than one 'door' into paradise [heaven]..
However, you can't buy the 'ticket' to pass through [a door].
It requires faith and effort .. much like a graduate when they receive their diploma.

Of course, a mansion without companionship would not be very enjoyable.
..which reminds me of the pictures of people in "the garden" in the watchtower magazine.

 

[RJM]

The living Earth renews itself, subducting and regenerating -- but even the Earth itself will one day reach the end of its life and be subducted by gravity and transformed at the heart of a cosmic black hole

 

[Thomas]

Thank you.

Sometimes people try to resolve what they see as contradictions in the scriptures by denying the authenticity of some parts of them, or interpreting them in ways that resolve the contradiction for them.

Quite. But the Trinity teaching was never, in its origin, seen as a contradiction by the Church.

The Didache, a kind of early catechism, which is generally agreed to have been in in use by 100AD, and dated perhaps as early as 50-70AD, refers to Baptism in the the tripartite formula: In the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

For example, Jesus says things that only God can say truthfully, and does things that only God can do, but He also calls God "Father" and talks to Him, and about Him, in terms of an interpersonal relationship. That looks like a contradiction

Does it, why? This is the point. It may look like contradiction to you, but that does not mean it is. The Church has resolved that contradiction, without the need to deny anything. Rather, it's those who deny the doctrine tend to argue by weighing one part of Scripture over another.

... or interpreting them in ways that remove the contradiction for them. That deprives them of some of the knowledge, wisdom and power in the scriptures.

Or, the interpretation removes the contradiction because it reveals the meaning behind, and implicit, in the text. It that way it opens the door to a tremendous spiritual resource that might otherwise be lost or overlooked. Based on Scripture, and on the words of Jesus Himself, the Fathers give the adage: The Spirit reveals the Son, the Son reveals the Father.

Are you asking me what I think of the authority of the Roman Catholic Church?

The doctrine is common to the Christian Church from the beginning. The Roman Catholic Church as a distinct entity was centuries later.