I was positing the possibility ... perhaps not the wording, but the concept
The possibility exists that God really did reveal it -- that it is not necessarily a human concoction? Certainly many people believe that to be the case.
It is definitely a teaching of the Catholic Church: 'In nomine Patris et Filii Spiritus Sancti' (In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit) it's constantly repeated every day, all over the world.Is what you're asking about a teaching of the church?
It is definitely a teaching of the Catholic Church. I would need to consult the Catechism, to find quotes. It's at home, I'll have a look when I have time
No. However the Catholic Church, for all its failings, carried the message of Christ down the centuries, through darkest times. We wouldn't be talking about it otherwiseAre you asking me what I think of the authority of the Roman Catholic Church?
So, have we cleared this up?Is what you're asking about a teaching of the church?
The Catholic Church does believe the Trinity is revealed truth, through Christ's interaction with the Church established through Peter and Paul. Catholics believe Christ guides the Church, and works in and through the church.
(Bad churchmen not withstanding. The Holy Spirit is not defiled)
In the events of salvation, God the Trinity gives not merely “some thing,” but rather he gives himself: God the Father sends his Son and pours out his Holy Spirit. These two aspects (God is revealed in historical events, and in them he really gives himself to believers) are at the center of the revelation of the Trinity. They constitute a fundamental and characteristic trait of the evangelical faith that distinguishes it from other forms of knowledge and of religious experience.
The “stake,” so to say, of faith in the Trinity is salvation itself, the participation of the Church in the Trinitarian life. The revelation of the Trinity is ordered to this participation in the Trinitarian mystery that constitutes the Church. The structure or “disposition” of this revelation is well expressed by the collect of the feast of the Holy Trinity:
"God the Father, you who by sending into the world the Word of truth and the Spirit of sanctification have manifested to men your admirable mystery, give us in confessing the true faith to recognize the glory of the eternal Trinity, and to adore the Unity in the power of majesty."
The mystery of God has been revealed to us by the Father himself. This revelation is accomplished by the sending of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. By designating the Son as “Word of truth,” the prayer of the feast of the Holy Trinity signifies that the Son is sent into the world in order to make known the mystery of God. It belongs to the “Word” as such to make manifest and to reveal the true face of God, by a knowledge that transforms hearts.
By designating the Holy Spirit as the “Spirit of sanctification” (cf. Rom 1:4), the Church signifies that the revelation of God is accomplished in the gift of new life that is obtained by the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. The revelatory and sanctifying action of the Son and of the Holy Spirit finds its origin in the Father himself, because the Father is the Source of the sending of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, in such a way that the Son and the Holy Spirit reveal the mystery of the Source itself: the mystery of the Father.
This prayer likewise indicates the two aspects of our understanding of the mystery of God the Trinity in faith: the relations of the persons and their unity of being. The relations are signified by the theme of mission: the Son and the Holy Spirit come forth from the Father who “sends” them. The unity is especially associated with the divine power. The actions of the Son and of the Holy Spirit manifest their equality in power with the Father. The Son and Holy Spirit reveal, sanctify, and save. They perform actions that God alone can accomplish. Their divinity is revealed particularly in this power: the works of God make visible “his eternal power and deity” (Rom 1:20).
One reason it matters to me is that it might be a way to help prevent people from depriving themselves of some of the knowledge, wisdom and power in the scriptures, by denying or deforming what they are saying, trying to resolve what they see as contradictions between them.
Good observation, imo
But is trinity a divine revelation, or just a human explanation?
Is there any other way that it can work? You are just as much the son as Jesus was, the difference only being how much time he could have inside him, and how many times he became himself.By "your trinity," do you mean the Trinity doctrine of Christianity? Maybe that's the only way it works for you, but it isn't the only way that it works for me.
Before all determination, before all number, before multiplicity, before created matter, before created natures, before minds.But the Trinity I'm talking about is before all determination, before all number, before multiplicity. Before created matter, before created natures, before minds.
I actually agree with a lot of what you're saying about the cosmos, but you're applying the same terms to God, and there, to me, they do not fit.
I have an equivalent sense of it, I don't don't see it your way. But then it's probably the case that neither of us see the real as it actually is, we're making sense of our gropings, our inspirations and our intuitions.
I think, personally, 'mind' is a misnomer.
I think 'being' or 'self' is a better term, or at least, that's the term from where I am coming from.
In which case – everything is Self, in that everything is an instance of Self. Everything participates in Selfhood, but everything, all formal and all formless modes of being, all formal and all formless manifestation, does not constitute Self as such. Self is more than the totality of every self. Be it the biggest thing or the smallest, it's all Self, and the Selfhood of an atom is no more nor less than the Selfhood of a planet. It's the same Self. The Self doesn't increase or decrease.
@powessyBefore all determination, before all number, before multiplicity, before created matter, before created natures, before minds.
These thoughts I ponder many times per day to understand how all came to be.
An interesting story and something no other person has ever seen or perhaps heard. One day while asking questions about nothing, I started to rub my eyes and then I was no longer here. I found myself in this huge space surrounded by these strange creatures. These creatures had the skin of many animals known and unknown. As I looked around they were all equally separated by space or themselves only but inside themselves nothing there. The space around them was absent of all things except for them and they were as far as I could see in all directions. To understand why these minds were called nothing is because they consumed all things around them until nothing remained not even time. Basically you have space with nothing inside it.
Before all determination and all the things you said above there was something though, space without time, void of all things. Here is how the story above is relative. You see nothing entered into gods mind to teach him nothing here and consumed all there was including time but god still was something, they could not teach him nothing here. I look at this thought always because the only thing here before all determination was space. God entered into nothing to teach them everything about themselves all the way inside themselves until they wanted to become something again.
Sorry for the story, I just think about this often and more lately along with the things they are trying to figure out.
No trinity only space before anything else.
Yes .. there is more than one 'door' into paradise [heaven]..My Father's house has many mansions
Quite. But the Trinity teaching was never, in its origin, seen as a contradiction by the Church.Thank you.
Sometimes people try to resolve what they see as contradictions in the scriptures by denying the authenticity of some parts of them, or interpreting them in ways that resolve the contradiction for them.
Does it, why? This is the point. It may look like contradiction to you, but that does not mean it is. The Church has resolved that contradiction, without the need to deny anything. Rather, it's those who deny the doctrine tend to argue by weighing one part of Scripture over another.For example, Jesus says things that only God can say truthfully, and does things that only God can do, but He also calls God "Father" and talks to Him, and about Him, in terms of an interpersonal relationship. That looks like a contradiction
Or, the interpretation removes the contradiction because it reveals the meaning behind, and implicit, in the text. It that way it opens the door to a tremendous spiritual resource that might otherwise be lost or overlooked. Based on Scripture, and on the words of Jesus Himself, the Fathers give the adage: The Spirit reveals the Son, the Son reveals the Father.... or interpreting them in ways that remove the contradiction for them. That deprives them of some of the knowledge, wisdom and power in the scriptures.
The doctrine is common to the Christian Church from the beginning. The Roman Catholic Church as a distinct entity was centuries later.Are you asking me what I think of the authority of the Roman Catholic Church?