How can there be a god?

Discussion in 'Belief and Spirituality' started by 'Amir Alzzalam, May 5, 2022.

  1. 'Amir Alzzalam

    'Amir Alzzalam Šayṭānist

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    5/3/22
    Tuesday my family lost our best friend, the sweetest innocent most loving pup in the world. Louie was only 9 and a terrible aggressive cancer took his life he couldn't be saved while being operated on and we put him to sleep. I can't explain the amount of pain and heartbreak we are going through. We loved Louie so much, he was the most important part of our family. The joy and happiness he brought cannot be put into words. His love was truly a gift and we will cherish every moment we spent with him. Louie loved life and made all the horrible parts of our lives so much easier. He didn't deserve this. We will love and miss him everyday forever. We love you Louie.

    How could this happen to the most innocent creature on earth? What did he do to deserve this? God has some plan? BS . . . either there isn't a god or it doesn't care. There is no explanation for this.

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  2. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    The nature of natural existence is that all things must pass. Change is the only certainty. Worlds and suns must pass. My condolences for your loss and for your pain :(
     
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  3. 'Amir Alzzalam

    'Amir Alzzalam Šayṭānist

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    Thank you for your condolences. All things will pass, of course, some sooner than others. The way of nature, which just confirms the nonexistence of a god.
     
  4. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    I'm not sure whether I can 'like' your post. I believe that the purpose and transitory nature of 'nature' shows that any real truth can be found only beyond the time and space dimension of the material world. All the great faiths teach this.

    I believe the dimension of nature is just one room in the greater house of Spirit, limited by walls of time and space. I believe there are perhaps infinite other rooms (dimensions) within that greater house. My Father's house has many mansions.

    Spirit weaves nature. The greater wheel of Spirit turns the lesser wheel of nature, and is not turned by it.

    I believe the 'walls' of the dimension of Spirit are walls of Love -- in the true Spirit sense of love as the connection between all things. And beyond that -- who knows. It is probably beyond the range of any human mind.

    Many people today are convinced nothing can exist beyond nature. But people who have experienced more, know there is more, and that's probably where the discussion hits the wall?

    This too, will pass
    Hang in there
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2022
  5. 'Amir Alzzalam

    'Amir Alzzalam Šayṭānist

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    Wow, what a load of bullshit. You didn't explain a damn thing for the existence of some god, just a bunch of mumbo jumbo. How can you be so ignorant towards reality?
     
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  6. Namaste Jesus

    Namaste Jesus Praise the Lord and Enjoy the Chai Moderator

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    Man, my deepest heartfelt condolences. I honestly do feel your pain. We lost a beloved pet just last week. I know of no greater pain on this earth. They depend on us for everything, trust us implicitly, give nothing but joy and love and ask for comparatively nothing in return. It hurts, it hurts so bad.
    Yes when it comes to faith and religion, mumbo jumbo abounds. So I'll spare you anymore. Now is not the time and the lounge is not the place. In fact, I'm going to say something now you probably never thought you'd hear me say.

    You're grieving right now and if that means you have to blame God, denounce his very existence, by golly you go and do it! Go outside, shake your fist at the sky, shout at the top of your lungs, go all Will Smith on him! Whatever it takes to vent that deep loss you feel inside. After the trauma of loosing a beloved pet, you deserve that much. Get that anger out! :mad:

    Later, after you've had time to grieve and have come to terms with your loss, maybe revisit the subject. For now though, allow yourself to grieve and give yourself time to heal.
     
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  7. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic) Admin

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    My condolences, 'Amir.
     
  8. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    But there is and the spirit is only able to manifest personally when I arrive at a position realising I am powerless and abandon my ego.

    My free will means that angels are not permitted to intervene in my human life without invitation. They may only watch and weep. Material attachments are the biggest obstacle. I may have to let go a lot of material and emotional dead weight, which may not be easy at first.

    I am not lecturing to your grief. I am responding to your opening statement that death means there isn't a god. I will stop now ...
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2022
  9. 'Amir Alzzalam

    'Amir Alzzalam Šayṭānist

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    Damn, I'm sorry Namaste Jesus. It really is the most pain I have ever felt. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
     
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  10. 'Amir Alzzalam

    'Amir Alzzalam Šayṭānist

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    Thanks everyone.
    Not that Death means there is no god. That a sentient creature that is so innocent and only filled with love and commitment to their human parent could be viciously destroyed. Doesn't this god have any control over anything he allegedly created? Why would he allow this to happen? Why would Louie deserve this? I don't buy it, I am truly convinced there is nothing out there. There's the physical universe and our perception of it.
     
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  11. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    Strange isn't it?
    It's OK that this universe appears to be cruel if G-d doesn't exist, and humans try to "have a good time" and get on with it.

    ..but if G-d exists, then G-d has made a cruel universe etc.
    If it was that bad, we would all want to be dead. :(
     
  12. 'Amir Alzzalam

    'Amir Alzzalam Šayṭānist

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    I disagree. The universe is cruel (to some us) because it is nothing more than a mechanism of entropy and negentropy void of conscience.
    Tell me why your God would allow that to happen to such an innocent and loving creature?
     
  13. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    What in my post do you disagree with?
    ..that you don't want to have a good time?
    ..that you don't want to die?
    What, exactly?
     
  14. 'Amir Alzzalam

    'Amir Alzzalam Šayṭānist

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    "
    It's OK that this universe appears to be cruel if G-d doesn't exist, and humans try to "have a good time" and get on with it.

    ..but if G-d exists, then G-d has made a cruel universe etc.
    If it was that bad, we would all want to be dead."

    It doesn't appear to be cruel, it IS cruel. If your god created this cruel universe then your god is a cruel god.
    IMO there is no god, and the universe is indeed cruel because it is nothing more than a mechanism of entropy and negentropy.
     
  15. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    You have just repeated your last post and are not engaging with the points / questions I have raised.
     
  16. 'Amir Alzzalam

    'Amir Alzzalam Šayṭānist

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    Cruelty is never OK, whether intentional or unintentional. Certain cruelties are almost impossible, if not impossible to "get on with it". These same cruelties won't promote a "have a good time" attitude.

    If god is a cruel god then why would/should anyone support him?
    Plenty of people commit suicide because things are impossibly bad for them.

    Does that answer you?
     
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  17. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    Nevertheless, reality is reality and we all have to "get on with it".

    ..so why is it that so many people go out clubbing every week-end?

    I do not conclude that G-d is cruel because He has created a world in which suffering exists.
    Is such a mortal world even possible?

    Yes, people often feel like committing suicide and might actually attempt it.
    However, there must be a better way to solve ones problems.

    Clearly, this worldly life is not all bad.
    Most people enjoy eating .. getting married .. spending money etc.
    For sake of argument, let's say that G-d exists.
    Is it not better to thank G-d for the things he has given us?
    ..or to complain about our suffering?
    I know which one is the positive attitude. :)
     
  18. Namaste Jesus

    Namaste Jesus Praise the Lord and Enjoy the Chai Moderator

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    Hard to think clearly when you've suffered a loss. The world no longer makes sense and however valid, no explanation seems worthy. I know, I've been there, but don't let despair cloud your judgement. Grief has many stages and each must pass in turn before the healing begins.

    Now, belief and faith have carried me through many a loss, but belief is a funny thing. Some feel the presence of God, some do not. Others feel the presence, but fail to recognize it. Still others feel God's presence, recognize it, yet deny or dismiss it and so it goes.
     
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  19. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    'Nature red in tooth and claw' is often cruel. Nature can also be kind. Change is the only certainly in nature, and all creatures die.

    But nature is like the shadow play of Plato's cave. Nature is a confused reflection of a higher reality, seen 'through a glass darkly'

    All spiritual teachers say there is no lasting peace in nature. Peace comes from the spirit, in humility and quietness.

    'This world is not my home'

    Imo ...
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2022
  20. badger

    badger Well-Known Member

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    I am very sorry for your loss, Amir.
    ..... I think I can understand how badly you are feeling.
    We have two little long-hair dachshunds, children to my childless wife, and great company for me.
    Together with my wife they have changed my life.
    I love them more than family, that's true.

    When I was an infant my parents went to a dog pound, chose a big bull-terrier, brought it home and let it run out in to our garden where I was playing with a baby-sitter. The dog attacked me immediately, dragged me amongst rose bushes and left me injured and in terror. For sixty years I was terrified of dogs, wouldn't walk along a road if a dog was running loose in it....dogs just knew that I was terrified of them and it affected them = a descending terror and hatred of dogs.

    My wife loves dogs, and she insisted that I watch all the Caesar Milan films, and in 2009 she told me that a little dachshund puppy had been brought in to the veterinary surgery where she works, and that she wanted to bring it home 'on trial'. It was only little; the cats didn't like it and I had to fend for it in the early days, but then it (called Smu) 'became', challenged all the cats and won the title of top-pet. I fell in love with it within about two weeks. And then we bought another dachshund.

    And so, Amir, I know how upset you are.

    I am a Deist, believe that every atom and tiniest force is a part of a vast and enormous Deity, the whole of everything. I am old now and our first little daxy is old as well. I have asked my wife to keep our ashes until we can be mixed together and sprinkled in the sea where Smu and I have swum together so often. :)

    I am very sorry for your loss, Amir.
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