What is the Baha'i message in simple words?

[Longfellow]

For example in "Some Answered Questions", in the chapter about "Two kinds of Prophets", Abdul Baha claims that the Buddha was a monotheistic prophet.

I found this compilation. Let me know if you think you’ve seen any other statements from the founders besides these, about Buddha and his teachings.

https://bahaiquotes.com/subject/buddha

 

[Ahanu]

It's problematic for me too, in some of the ways that I've seen it being interpreted and applied in online discussions.

So how should it be interpreted and applied, @Longfellow?

 

[Ahanu]

I believe it's possible that there may not be any absolute truth.

This is a self-refuting statement.

 

[Longfellow]

So how should it be interpreted and applied, @Longfellow?

I don't have any authority to say how it should be interpreted and applied. If you want me to, I can tell you how I understand it and how I've tried to apply it.

 

[Ahanu]

I don't have any authority to say how it should be interpreted and applied. If you want me to, I can tell you how I understand it and how I've tried to apply it.

Of course.

We are individuals sharing our opinions. I think that is implied from being members of online discussion forums.

 

[Ahanu]

I found this compilation. Let me know if you think you’ve seen any other statements from the founders besides these, about Buddha and his teachings.

https://bahaiquotes.com/subject/buddha

There are plenty of them. Take the concept of emptiness, for example. Buddhism has many different views about it. There are Baha'i papers about this as well.

 

[Longfellow]

I found this compilation. Let me know if you think you’ve seen any other statements from the founders besides these, about Buddha and his teachings.

https://bahaiquotes.com/subject/buddha

(later) Here's another one:

buddha_krishna_zoroaster.pdf (bahai-library.com)

I did some searching, and couldn't find any validation of any more than two of them as translations of what Abdu'l-Baha actually said, or any reason to trust the English translation of either of those.

 

[Ahanu]

Sometimes Abdu'l-Baha says, "religion is one," and sometimes "the foundation of the religions is one." My understanding of that is that the people that Baha'u'llah calls "Manifestations of God," and their teachings, have a common purpose, to bring out the best possibilities in human life and in human society. One of the ways that I've tried to apply that is to try to learn and understand as much as I can about how their teachings have served those purposes, and might still be serving those purposes, and to keep that in mind in my conversations with their followers.

Okay.

What are some of the problematic ways that you have seen it being interpreted and applied in online discussions, as you pointed out in post #264?

 

[Longfellow]

I found this compilation. Let me know if you think you’ve seen any other statements from the founders besides these, about Buddha and his teachings.

https://bahaiquotes.com/subject/buddha

There are plenty of them. Take the concept of emptiness, for example. Buddhism has many different views about it. There are Baha'i papers about this as well.

When I said "from the founders," I meant writings of Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha, explicitly about Buddha and his teachings.

Okay.

What are some of the problematic ways that you have seen it being interpreted and applied in online discussions, as you pointed out in post #264?

People misquoting Abdu'l-Baha as saying that "all religions are one," thinking of religions as systems of belief and practice and trying to reconcile them, and acting like they are infallible interpreters of the scriptures of all religions.

(later) Here's the kind of conversation that I'm thinking about:

Baha'i: All religions are one.

Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, or follower of some other religion: But these beliefs and practices of yours are incompatible with mine.

Baha'i: No they aren't because ...

or

Baha'i: That's because you aren't really following the teachings of your Manifestation, like we are.

Either way, the message is "I'm not interested in what you think about your religion," which people can feel even if they can't see through all the smoke and mirrors around it. Baha'is aren't really much different from other people that way. What makes it look worse to people sometimes might be thinking that "all religions are one" means "all religions are equal." It might be confusing and frustrating to people sometimes to think that Baha'is are saying that all religions are equal, (edited) and saying that theirs is the only one that is still pure and all the others have been grievously corrupted, at the same time. (end edit)

 

[Ahanu]

When I said "from the founders," I meant writings of Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha, explicitly about Buddha and his teachings.

Okay.

This is an example in how we all construct meanings when reading texts from our own background knowledge. It's human. It's what humans do.

People misquoting Abdu'l-Baha as saying that "all religions are one," thinking of religions as systems of belief and practice and trying to reconcile them,

The oneness of religion is still defended. "This is the changeless Faith of God" and all that jazz. Not sure why you think attempting to reconcile the beliefs of various religious systems goes against that spirit. After all, Abdu'l-Baha does quite a bit of reconciling himself in his statements about the Trinity, for example, not being something Christ himself originally taught.

and acting like they are infallible interpreters of the scriptures of all religions.

Okay. Thanks for sharing your opinion. I will continue to share my opinions as well.

 

[Thomas]

The most comprehensive explanation on this question is found in the Kitab-i-iqan.

I'm sorry, I don't see it. I see reference to 'oneness' and 'unity', but not how unity exists in the oneness ... ?

"I go away and come again unto you." And in another place He said: "I go and another will come Who will tell you all that I have not told you, and will fulfill all that I have said." Both these sayings have but one meaning, were you to ponder upon the Manifestations of the Unity of God with divine insight. (https://www.bahai.org/library/authoritative-texts/bahaullah/kitab-i-iqan/)
Meaning the coming of that 'other paraclete', the Third Person of the Holy Trinity, which, dare I say, one would perceive if one ponders the Unity of God with divine insight? The above-cited texts, when read in context, point both to the nature of the Holy Spirit – as spirit – and the Pentecost event – no mention of further, subsequent manifestations.

The next work to pursue is a provisional translation of the 'Tablet of the Universe' by Abdul'baha, it explains in great detail how creation came into being via the emanation of the Holy Spirit.

On the contrary, the first person to state that the earth moved about the sun was the sage Pythagoras (not quite right. He believed in a 'central fire' around which the sun, earth, moon and planets revolved) ... He was followed in this view by the philosopher Plato in his latter days (no, I think Plato, lioke Aristotle, was geocentric). Aristarchus composed a treatise in 280 B.C. in which he affirmed that the earth revolves about the sun and around its own axis. (https://bahai-library.com/abdul-baha_lawh_aflakiyyih)
Yes, he assumed the stars did likewise ...

However, he did not found this view upon clear evidences, convincing arguments, and positive proofs derived from the laws of geometry and the principles of mathematics; rather he based it on a mere presentiment, an apprehension, an intuition. (ibid)
We can't really say, as his writings are lost. We only have comments of others ...

If I am to answer your question from my understanding, then I could offer is and oversimplification, most likely inaccurate account as a thought.

That's why I wondered if there was any scholarly exegesis.

There are also many Tablets where Baha'u'llah has explained the interaction of God with humanity.

Yes, I can see that from the writings you suggested.

 

[Ahanu]

(later) Here's the kind of conversation that I'm thinking about:

Baha'i: All religions are one.

Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, or follower of some other religion: But these beliefs and practices of yours are incompatible with mine.

Baha'i: No they aren't because ...

or

Baha'i: That's because you aren't really following the teachings of your Manifestation, like we are.

Either way, the message is "I'm not interested in what you think about your religion," which people can feel even if they can't see through all the smoke and mirrors around it. Baha'is aren't really much different from other people that way. What makes it look worse to people sometimes might be thinking that "all religions are one" means "all religions are equal." It might be confusing and frustrating to people sometimes to think that Baha'is are saying that all religions are equal, and see them acting like they are infallible interpreters of the scriptures of all religions, at the same time. According to their own teachings, that can't be true, because none of them are even infallible interpreters of their own scriptures.

Okay. Conversations like this go on across the board. And Theravada Buddhists say Mahayana Buddhists follow an innovation. The Mahayana Buddhists feels the other is not interested in his input. Salafis say Ismailis follow an innovation. The Ismaili feels the other is not interested in her input.

The issue at hand is about the nature of dialogue more than anything else.

 

[Longfellow]

There is a strong disagreement between Muslims and Christians about the nature of Jesus. It is probably irreconcilable. Where does the Baha'i faith stand on this?*

*A new thread, perhaps?

If you mean the belief systems that are being promoted on the Internet as "the Baha'i Faith," they might be all over the place, in echo chambers and on platforms diametrically opposed to each other. If you mean the community whose membership is defined by the Baha'i Universal House of Justice, it doesn't stand anywhere in that debate, or any other theological debate. If you're interested in what Baha'u'llah or Abdu'l-Baha actually taught, the only way I know to learn about that is through years of studying their teachings and trying to put them into practice.

 

[RJM]

After all, Abdu'l-Baha does quite a bit of reconciling himself in his statements about the Trinity, for example, not being something Christ himself originally taught.

And he has the infallible word? It's a debate that's has been going on forever. Muslims reject the Trinity because they believe it means 'Jesus is God' -- no shades or degrees. Islam does not recognize the mysteries of Christianity. It's irreconcilable, imo. But Baha'u'llah, taking the Muslim view, has Christianity all done and dusted?

As in: "Be reasonable, see it my way."
(edited)

 

[Longfellow]

Well, as I see it, Christians and Baha'is will throw scripture quotes at each other till the cows come home. It's fun, but it should be consensual. Is everybody reall aboard for this ride?

Can we think of other ways to conduct the conversation? Instead of trying to prove each other wrong, what else could we try?

Walk a mile in the other person's sandals, perhaps? A Baha'i and a Christian agree to try to view the universe through the other faith's lenses for a day? We could still do the quote-fest, only, the participants would try to find quotes in support of the other faith's point of view.

How about that?

Another idea is to spend time together, side by side in some kind of community service, without thinking of diversity of beliefs as a problem.

(later) That isn't exactly what I want to say, but I'll need some time to improve on it. It doesn't mean that I don't think it matters what people believe, or that I think people should not try to promote their views.

 

[Longfellow]

When I see people asking "what do Baha'is believe about ..." I'm not sure what they are asking about. There is a worldwide community whose membership is defined by the Baha'i Universal House of Justice, reaching into every corner of the world and every corner of society. There is as wide a range of beliefs within that community, on every question, as there is outside of it. There are some beliefs that are more popular than others, and there are some that are widely stigmatized, but those vary widely from one part of the world to another, and maybe sometimes even in social circles within the same community. There is no creed, no list of beliefs that a person has to endorse, to be a member.

Online, there are two or more camps with some fundamental beliefs opposed to each other, each calling their beliefs "Baha'i beliefs," and each with their own echo chambers and platforms.

What Whose beliefs are people asking about when they say "what do Baha'is believe about ..."

 

[RJM]

What beliefs are people asking about when they say "what do Baha'is believe about ..."

What did Baha'u'llah, or Abdu'l-Baha write about the Trinity? Or about Christian Trinitarian belief ...

 

[Longfellow]

What did Baha'u'llah, or Abdul'Baha write about the Trinity? Or about Christian Trinitarian belief ...

Are you asking me to search for that in their writings and post quotes or links, or are you asking me to try to guess what I might think about it after reading everything that I can find them saying about it? Or, maybe, are you asking me to spend the many hours that I would need to spend, to actually search in their writings for answers to those questions, and think about it, and discuss it with people? Or, are you just asking for my opinion, based on the reading and thinking that I've already done, and my conversations about it with people promoting some Trinity beliefs?

(later) Sorry. I corrected my post above. Instead of "What beliefs are people asking about when they say 'what do Baha'is believe about ..."' I should have said "Whose beliefs are people asking about when they say 'what do Baha'is believe about ...'"

 

[RJM]

Are you asking me to search for that in their writings and post quotes or links, or are you asking me to try to guess what I might think about it after reading everything that I can find them saying about it? Or, maybe, are you asking me to spend the many hours that I would need to spend, to actually search in their writings for answers to those questions, and think about it, and discuss it with people? Or, are you just asking for my opinion, based on the reading and thinking that I've already done, and my conversations about it with people promoting some Trinity beliefs?

You said:

What beliefs are people asking about when they say "what do Baha'is believe about ..."

I said:

What did Baha'u'llah, or Abdu'l-Baha write about the Trinity? Or about Christian Trinitarian belief ...

It's quite alright that you concede you do not have the information. Perhaps a Baha'i will have the information?

 

[Longfellow]

It's quite alright that you concede you do not have the information. Perhaps a Baha'i will have the information?

Sorry. I corrected my post above. Instead of "What beliefs are people asking about when they say 'what do Baha'is believe about ..."' I should have said "Whose beliefs are people asking about when they say 'what do Baha'is believe about ...'"