The Return

Discussion in 'Belief and Spirituality' started by Tone Bristow-Stagg, Aug 25, 2022.

  1. Tone Bristow-Stagg

    Tone Bristow-Stagg Well-Known Member

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    Thought a would share a post from a friend from Facebook. This is from the page called "The Shirt". The Shirt is printed with 1260AH=1844D=1BE

    The topic to discuss will be this quote from FB "The Shirt"

    "The Return ..."

    Read Micah 5:2 King James Version, and understand what it is saying:

    . "But thou, Bethlehem Ephrata, though little among the clans of Judah, out of thee shall come forth to Me, He Who is to be Ruler of Israel; He Whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting...."
    . . Micah 5:2 King James Version

    . . "He Whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting..." Who appears from Age to Age, in diverse human identity, never the same DNA Identity, but the One Who Returns from Age to Age, born as a baby to a mother each time...

    . He wasn't known to us as Jesus prior to Mary giving birth...
    Yet He said: " Before Abraham was, I am."
    He was not known to us as Jesus in His previous Manifestations ...

    It is the Universal Manifestation of God Who appears in diverse human attire. It was not the DNA Identity of Elijah Who Returned as John the Baptist, but the Spiritual Identity again appearing with a similar Mission.

    . "I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No man comes to the Father but by Me."I
    . Jesus

    "... by Me... " is meant the Eternal Manifestation of God, Who appears from Age to Age... "Whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting..."

    .. "I am the Way, and the Master who watches in silence; thy friend and thy shelter, and thy abode of peace. I am the beginning and the middle and the end of all things; their seed of Eternity, their Treasure supreme."
    . Krishna

    . "This indeed is the Way—there is no other—for the purification of one’s vision. Follow this Way. I have taught you the Way… making the effort is your affair."
    . Buddha

    "This is the Way of thy Lord, leading straight: We have detailed the signs for those who receive admonition. For them will be a home of peace in the presence of their Lord: He will be their friend, because they practised (righteousness)."
    . Muhammad

    . "This is the Way of God for all the inhabitants of earth and heaven and all that lieth betwixt them.”
    . The Bab

    . "He hath manifested unto men the Day Stars of His divine guidance, the Symbols of His divine unity, and hath ordained the knowledge of these sanctified Beings to be identical with the knowledge of His own Self. Whoso recognizeth Them hath recognized God. Whoso hearkeneth unto Their call, hath hearkened unto the voice of God, and whoso testifieth to the truth of Their revelation, hath testified to the truth of God Himself….
    . Every one of Them is the Way of God that connecteth this world with the realms above….
    . They are the Manifestations of God amidst men, the evidences of His Truth, and the signs of His glory."
    . Baha'u'llah

    . "Blessed is he who recognizes Him in this, His new attire."
    . Baha’u’llah

    So always happy to discuss this.

    Regards Tony
     
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  2. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    John and Jesus?

    Multiple manifestations of G!d same time frame?
     
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  3. Tone Bristow-Stagg

    Tone Bristow-Stagg Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for your observation and question. Baha'u'llah has explained in great detail the connection of the Messenger with God. Both the Bab and Baha'u'llah also lived on this earth together from 1819 to 1853, there is volumes full of contemplations on this topic. (A bonus Hadith is the following tradition from Beharul Anwar Imam Ali (as) said, "I am two years younger than my Lord."(Ref: Beharul Anwar, volume 38, page 278. This tradition appears in the footnote))

    "To every discerning and illuminated heart it is evident that God, the unknowable Essence, the Divine Being, is immensely exalted beyond every human attribute, such as corporeal existence, ascent and descent, egress and regress. Far be it from His glory that human tongue should adequately recount His praise, or that human heart comprehend His fathomless mystery. He is, and hath ever been, veiled in the ancient eternity of His Essence, and will remain in His Reality everlastingly hidden from the sight of men. “No vision taketh in Him, but He taketh in all vision; He is the Subtile, the All-Perceiving.”…

    The door of the knowledge of the Ancient of Days being thus closed in the face of all beings, the Source of infinite grace, according to His saying, “His grace hath transcended all things; My grace hath encompassed them all,” hath caused those luminous Gems of Holiness to appear out of the realm of the spirit, in the noble form of the human temple, and be made manifest unto all men, that they may impart unto the world the mysteries of the unchangeable Being, and tell of the subtleties of His imperishable Essence.

    These sanctified Mirrors, these Daysprings of ancient glory, are, one and all, the Exponents on earth of Him Who is the central Orb of the universe, its Essence and ultimate Purpose. From Him proceed their knowledge and power; from Him is derived their sovereignty. The beauty of their countenance is but a reflection of His image, and their revelation a sign of His deathless glory. They are the Treasuries of Divine knowledge, and the Repositories of celestial wisdom. Through them is transmitted a grace that is infinite, and by them is revealed the Light that can never fade.… These Tabernacles of Holiness, these Primal Mirrors which reflect the light of unfading glory, are but expressions of Him Who is the Invisible of the Invisibles. By the revelation of these Gems of Divine virtue all the names and attributes of God, such as knowledge and power, sovereignty and dominion, mercy and wisdom, glory, bounty, and grace, are made manifest.

    (Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, XIX)

    The Bab was born in 1819 and Baha'u'llah 1817. They were both born of the Holy Spirit, both Messengers, the Bab being the Eiljah for the Day of God. There is many a great mystery and many truths unfolded in this event.

    From what I understand is that all the Messengers are of the One Holy Spirit, they are all the Names of God, they are all the first and the last. They, one and all are all we know of God, as God has always sent the Messengers and will do so until the last.

    The following spoiler is a short explanation on this vast subject.

    "These Manifestations of God have each a twofold station. One is the station of pure abstraction and essential unity. In this respect, if thou callest them all by one name, and dost ascribe to them the same attributes, thou hast not erred from the truth. Even as He hath revealed: “No distinction do We make between any of His Messengers.” For they, one and all, summon the people of the earth to acknowledge the unity of God, and herald unto them the Kawthar of an infinite grace and bounty. They are all invested with the robe of prophethood, and are honored with the mantle of glory. Thus hath Muhammad, the Point of the Qur’án, revealed: “I am all the Prophets.” Likewise, He saith: “I am the first Adam, Noah, Moses, and Jesus.” Similar statements have been made by Imám ‘Alí. Sayings such as these, which indicate the essential unity of those Exponents of Oneness, have also emanated from the Channels of God’s immortal utterance, and the Treasuries of the gems of Divine knowledge, and have been recorded in the Scriptures. These Countenances are the recipients of the Divine Command, and the Daysprings of His Revelation. This Revelation is exalted above the veils of plurality and the exigencies of number. Thus He saith: “Our Cause is but One.” Inasmuch as the Cause is one and the same, the Exponents thereof also must needs be one and the same. Likewise, the Imáms of the Muhammadan Faith, those lamps of certitude, have said: “Muhammad is our first, Muhammad is our last, Muhammad our all.”

    (Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, XXII)

    Always happy to expand on that answer.

    Regards Tony
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2022
  4. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    Removed
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2022
  5. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    One million Rastafarians believe Haile Selassie to be the Messiah. Sixty million Sikhs have their messenger Guru Nanak. Another sixty million Falun Gong have their Li Hongzhi. Theosophist Alice Bailey wrote countless volumes dictated by the ascended master Dwaj Kuhl from 'beyond the veil'. There are obviously many others. Why should Baha'u'llah lay claim to the title for the next 1000 years?
     
  6. Tone Bristow-Stagg

    Tone Bristow-Stagg Well-Known Member

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    That would be a good thing to research, if you are interested.

    I have lots of projects on at home. Finished bathroom renovations, now have auto electrical work on our car to do. Great Being busy.

    Regards Tony
     
  7. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    Ok. Let's restore the question:
    I asked:
     
  8. Tone Bristow-Stagg

    Tone Bristow-Stagg Well-Known Member

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    The choice is ours RJM. Stands to reason the "Day of God" has the greatest challenges we have ever faced. Teaching us that we need to embrace what is of God and not from our own selves.

    Regards Tony
     
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  9. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    The issue here for me is that the interpretation does not proceed from the text.

    The Jews interpret Micah 5:2 as referring to the Messiah, Christians see it referring to Jesus, the 'from old, from everlasting' can be read as meaning the fulfilment of the prophecies made to Israel (cf Genesis 12:1-3; 15:9-21 for the earliest), or can be read to mean that Jesus is the Incarnate Son of God ... but there is no mention of appearances from 'age to age', birth, etc.

    (v3: "Therefore he will abandon them until the time that she who is in labor gives birth" – again Christians read 'she' to mean Mary, the mother of Jesus, but a close reading of the text really precludes that interpretation.)

    So Jews read it one way, Christians another, and Baha'i yet another ... each according to their own a priori beliefs.

    He makes no mention of previous manifestations whatsoever ... that's reading into the text and open to discussion. The use of the present tense 'ego eimi' is significant.

    The issue here is that none of the Prophets of Israel, Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, whoever, claim to be 'manifestations of God in human attire' – that's not what a prophet is, nor how the prophets of Israel identify themselves, nor (I think) how Muhammed (pbuh) identified himself.

    Well they were both devout Jews ... John the Baptist's preaching evoked the image of Elijah to his listeners.
    When the Baptist was asked: "Art thou Elias" (in the present tense), he replied "I am not" (John 1:21).

    Matthew (11:14, 17:10–13) identifies John as the spiritual successor to Elijah, and Luke tells us that when an angel visited Zachary, he was told: "Fear not, Zachary ... thy wife Elizabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John ... he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb (ie, baptised in the Holy Spirit) ... And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias ..." (Luke 1:13-17).
    The 'spirit and power of Elias' signifies the character of his mission, as you say, John was quite the hard-liner, but the prophecy is the work of the Holy Spirit.
     
  10. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    On the subject of the rainbow, diversity, inclusion, I feel our multiple religions, like our ethnic groups, skin color, languages...

    We all have similarities to connect thru...but our differences is what makes life...well life.

    I just don't find a desire to live where we all are olive/ tan, speak Esperanto and believe the same mythologies.
     
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  11. Tone Bristow-Stagg

    Tone Bristow-Stagg Well-Known Member

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    Oneness embraces diversity. Oneness is not sameness.

    The body is made up of key ingredients that enable all parts to work as an organic whole. Disruption of the key ingredients causes sickness and ultimately death.

    So the body of humanity requires a level of submission to disruptive elements for the good of the whole. Other than that we can operate in our diversity of parts, as a unified organic whole.

    The eyes are not the ears, the ears are not the mouth...etc. so it can be with the body of humanity.

    We need God to give the elixer in each age, to give the cure to an ailing humanity. Up to this age humanity has been born, progressed through adolescence and now reaching maturity. God has given us guidance to find universal peace as a mature human race should be doing.

    Unity in our diversity is required.

    Regards Tony
     
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  12. Tone Bristow-Stagg

    Tone Bristow-Stagg Well-Known Member

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    The context of your question does not make sense to me, I am not sure as to what you are asking.

    I see Muhammad taught how to become one people under One God (Allah). That God (Allah) is known by the Many Names.

    All those Names can be seen in the Message given by Muhammad, All those names can be seen in the Messages given by God in the Bible and the Messages given by all the Prophets.

    So are you wondering how Muhammad taught about the 'Names of God', or are you saying Muhammad is all the Names of God?

    I think you may be able to answer your question by asking yourself how Jesus is equated to all the Names of God?

    Regards Tony
     
  13. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    Don't you know about the 99 names of Allah? Do you think Allah's prophet Muhammad (pbuh) dared to take for himself the 99 names of Allah? The Prophet regarded himself as the messenger of Allah. He did not take upon himself the names of Allah. It's unthinkable

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_God_in_Islam
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2022
  14. Tone Bristow-Stagg

    Tone Bristow-Stagg Well-Known Member

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    Personally I see the Bible.talka often of the renewal fro age to age, it is all about interpretation and we have to be careful that we do not rejects God because we are shut out because of our interpretation.

    Psalms 90 to me shows the progression, that each Day of God (Dispensation of a Message) does end in destruction and that Gid calls us to return.

    "90:1 Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations. (Logically this is the dispensation of the Prophets)

    90:2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God. (So in each age, from the beginning to the end, God gives us the Prophets)

    90:3 Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men.(Logically this is saying there is a time that each Message is brought to destruction by man and man again has to return)

    90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night." (There are numerous passages that hint of a dispensation of a Message, that all are subject to time, dissolution and renewal)

    There will be many such passages, like Matthew 12:32, "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."

    I see the entire Bible is a promise of "Return", thay it is full of the promise that God does not leave us alone.

    I guess one would have to consider what the Quran and Baha'i writings say on this topic?

    Regards Tony
     
  15. Tone Bristow-Stagg

    Tone Bristow-Stagg Well-Known Member

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    Muhammad gave a Message from Allah, that is most likely, hands down, the greatest courage there is.

    Baha'u'llah has explained how the Messenger is both Human and Divine.

    "Bahá’u’lláh describes the station of “Divinity” which He shares with all the Manifestations of God as

    …the station in which one dieth to himself and liveth in God. Divinity, whenever I mention it, indicateth My complete and absolute self-effacement. This is the station in which I have no control over mine own weal or woe nor over my life nor over my resurrection.

    And, regarding His own relationship to God, He testifies:

    When I contemplate, O my God, the relationship that bindeth me to Thee, I am moved to proclaim to all created things “verily I am God”; and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!" https://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KA/ka-177.html

    So the Manifestations have not control over their Divinity, as they are in complete submission to God's Will.

    Regards Tony
     
  16. Tone Bristow-Stagg

    Tone Bristow-Stagg Well-Known Member

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    Jesus at the least referred to Moses and that Moses was connected to the Message Jesus Gave.

    John5:46 "For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me."

    Logically that is saying, had you believed in Moses, then you would recognise that it was Jesus Moses had written about.

    Personally I see that is inclusive of Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

    If you beleive in Moses, then you would beleive in Jesus, Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah as He (Moses) wrote about them One and All.

    Regards Tony
     
  17. Tone Bristow-Stagg

    Tone Bristow-Stagg Well-Known Member

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    Progressive revelation is how Baha'u'llah has explained this.

    Theses stations are veiled in all past writings. With Jesus a glimpse of this station was given and man made a doctrine called the Trinity was made. The Message of Muhammad was required to show how Jesus was a Messenger from God and not God in Essence. Islam took this the wrong way and because they found it difficult to reconcile, they accused the Bible as being corrupted.

    Baha'u'llah has cleared this up. Baha'u'llah has shown how in the Station of Divinity, the Messenger is all we can know of God, so in that Station, to us they are the 'Self of God', the embodiment of the Names and Attributes of God, but none are the Almighty unknowable God in Essence, who does not decend into creation. Great detail has been given on this.

    In the other station they are a man like us, yet they are a perfect example of what a Human can be.

    In case you did not see it, here is a quote from above.

    "Bahá’u’lláh describes the station of “Divinity” which He shares with all the Manifestations of God as

    …the station in which one dieth to himself and liveth in God. Divinity, whenever I mention it, indicateth My complete and absolute self-effacement. This is the station in which I have no control over mine own weal or woe nor over my life nor over my resurrection.

    And, regarding His own relationship to God, He testifies:

    When I contemplate, O my God, the relationship that bindeth me to Thee, I am moved to proclaim to all created things “verily I am God”; and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!" https://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KA/ka-177.html

    Shoghi Effendi in 'God Passes by', compiles all this in great detail.

    Regards Tony
     
  18. Tone Bristow-Stagg

    Tone Bristow-Stagg Well-Known Member

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    To me this is the Key and has now been explained in great detail.

    Jesus made it really easy for us yet how easily do we also turn this simplicity into complex dogma.

    Jesus said the flesh amounts to nothing and it is the Spirit which is the light and life.

    Jesus said we must be born from the flesh into the Spirit to find life. That we can be born into thay spirit while still in the flesh and that death could not overcome that station.

    Yet men expect jesus to return as the same man of 2000 years ago, when Jesus already explained how it happens by showing that John the Baptist was Elijah, logically telling us that it is the attributes that return, not the flesh.

    This is also how Jesus told us to determine True Prophets, by the fruits of the Spirit and by their Prophecy.

    If we are just, then Baha'u'llah passes both tests of both the Spirit and Prophecy. The Message of Baha’u’llah stands on its own merit, it is God's Word and will become the standard we can aspire to in this age.

    Baha'u'llah said there will need to be a World Legislative thay all Nations submit to, that disarmament is a prerequisite...etc, etc. This age will embrace that wisdom as it will not perish, the promise of the Most Great Peace is assured.

    How many of us will perish before the Lesser Peace is unknown, we know America will drive the Peace effort and will suffer greatly because of that role, so it is up to us to lessen the impact of a divided world by our own immediate actions.

    Regards Tony
     
  19. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    The (Abrahamic) prophets up to Jesus certainly did not see themselves as a mirror of the divine qualities, but as mere men tasked as the scribes or spokesmen of God's word to man. Muhammad (pbuh) also perceived himself in this way. It's what makes Jesus different -- far from just a prophet -- Krishna too.

    It's comparing apples with oranges. Krishna cannot be compared to Moses, or Jesus to Muhammad. You've got it wrong, imo
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2022
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  20. Tone Bristow-Stagg

    Tone Bristow-Stagg Well-Known Member

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    Are you one with them, to answer for them?

    Regards Tony
     

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