A Catholic Reply to the Commentary on Verses of John by Abdu’l-Bahá

[Ahanu]

Well, this is going to be interesting then. Please share your source(s).

The key source I will be using here is Simone J. Joseph's book titled Jesus, the Essenes, and Christian Origins: New Light on Ancient Texts and Communities. It is recent scholarship. And, no, before anybody thinks about it, he is not a fringe scholar. You can look up his credentials here on his website. And, no, I will not be taking his words out of context like I mistakenly did with Seyyed Hossein Nasr. I have carved out some time this evening to specifically address this important topic.

The Essenes are not simply one group, but they are multiple groups in various camps throughout the land. You will see why this is a good place to start the discussion in a moment. These various groups are important to keep in mind because the Damascus Document emphasizes the new covenant and includes families with children (CD 7.6-7); on the other end of the spectrum there is the more rigorous group of priests, according to the author, represented in the Rule of the Community. He suggests there could include an inner circle of twelve celibate men in this group as well (1QS 8.10-11). The author says this "temple-like" group lived in Qumran. They are called Yahad. It is this group that envisioned their community replacing the Jerusalem Temple since they believe it became corrupt in the early 2nd century BCE over a host of different issues. They had a “union-of-communities living in ‘all of their residences’ (1QS 6.1b-8) in Judea.” This community design recalls the revelation of Law to the twelve tribes at Sinai, he says. The Yahad seems to have had two divisions: the priests (Aaron) and everybody else (Israel). Here we will focus on the priests and those angels.

In these ancient texts angels are called many different things, such as gods, Angels of the Presence, and priests in the heavenly temple. The Yahad anticipated “the restoration of ‘the glory of Adam’ (1QS 4.22-23; CD 3.20; and 1QH 4.15). In 4Q171 3.1-2 the ‘inheritance of Adam’ will be made available to the community. It is ‘a crown of glory with majestic raiment in eternal light’ (1QS 4.7-8),” and he adds it is “some kind of metamorphosis,” citing Geza Verme’s work the Complete Dead Sea Scrolls. He points to 1QS 4:25. Joseph says that “initiation – with its rigorous purification rituals, holiness, esoteric knowledge, and communion with angels – had as its highest goal the transformation of its members.” Here he adds a footnote directing the reader to James H. Charlesworth’s essay “The Portrayal of the Righteous as an Angel” and Elliet R. Wolfson’s “Mysticism and the Poetic-Liturgical Compositions from Qumran: A Response to Bilhah Nitzan.” He concludes that “[t]he idea that human beings could be transformed into angels or angel-like divine human beings developed in pre-Christian circles. A number of texts found at Qumran further attest to this growing tradition . . .”

Here is one of them:

[El Elyon gave me a seat among] those perfect forever,
a mighty throne in the congregation of the gods.
None of the kings of the east shall sit in it
and their nobles shall not [come near it].
No Edomite shall be like me in glory,
and none shall be exalted save men, nor shall come against me.
For I have taken my seat in the [congregation] in the heavens,
and none [find fault with me].
I shall be reckoned with the gods
and established in the holy congregation.
I do not desire [gold], as would a man of flesh;
everything precious to me is in the glory of [my God].

Anyway, back to this entire scholarly discussion of human beings transforming into angels. There are quite a number of them that side with Simone J. Joseph. I am sure there are various interpretations in the scholarly field, @Thomas. So let's hear it.

 

[Faithfulservant]

In Christianity we believe when Christ resurrected He resurrected in His new body. That why they didn't recognize Him until He told them He wasn't a ghost and told them to touch Him. He still had the holes in His hands yet He could walk through walls and disappear. He didn't need to eat or rest and ascended into heaven. The description of His new body is in Revelation. . This is the same body we will receive when we are resurrected. It's a physical body but glorified.

 

[RabbiO]

@Ahanu -

Two minor quibbles. 1) The gentleman’s name is Simon, not Simone. 2) Despite the claim on his website he is not a professor at UCLA. He does teach there but his capacity is “lecturer”.

 

[Ahanu]

@Ahanu -

Two minor quibbles. 1) The gentleman’s name is Simon, not Simone. 2) Despite the claim on his website he is not a professor at UCLA. He does teach there but his capacity is “lecturer”.

Thanks for the correction.

 

[Ahanu]

In Christianity we believe when Christ resurrected He resurrected in His new body. That why they didn't recognize Him until He told them He wasn't a ghost and told them to touch Him. He still had the holes in His hands yet He could walk through walls and disappear. He didn't need to eat or rest and ascended into heaven. The description of His new body is in Revelation. . This is the same body we will receive when we are resurrected. It's a physical body but glorified.

Yes, I have heard this argument before for a physical body that is glorified. But I do not think any Christian really understands it. Glorified body or not, the author of Acts still describes the men physically looking up into the sky, so as far as I am concerned, Carl Sagan's point still applies.

 

[Ahanu]

@Ahanu -

Two minor quibbles. 1) The gentleman’s name is Simon, not Simone. 2) Despite the claim on his website he is not a professor at UCLA. He does teach there but his capacity is “lecturer”.

His LinkedIn says he is a lecturer in early Christianity at UCLA and a senior adjunct professor of religion at California Lutheran University. It states he has a Ph.D. in religion from Claremont Graduate University and a M.A. in religious studies from New York University. Please let me know if you find anything else.

 

[Thomas]

Well, this is going to be interesting then. Please share your source(s).

Well, this for one. It argues for the existence of angels as distinct spiritual entities, and in the case of the Quran Community, that undertaking certain initiations can elevate or transform the human to the point of being equal to, or higher than, the angels.

As you say, the Essenes were not one group, and there's some debate that the Qumran Community might well be a sectarian, breakaway group from the Essenes, choosing to live according to strict rules in a closed community.

The angelology of the Essenes is all part-and-parcel of the angelology of Jewish mystical speculation generally, the Enoch texts being a stand-out strand of speculation around that two – about 100 years or so either side of the birth of Christ.

I'm not sure what you're point is here?

If you mean Christian Scripture need to interpreted in the light of the Quran texts – that is not necessarily the case.

 

[Thomas]

Just a point on Simone J. Joseph – he's not necessary froinge nor mainstream because of his qualification, it's where his views and his thesis stands in regard to mainstream scholarly opinion.

I've read reviews of his book and without going into detail, the general opinion is 'nothing new' and that he makes certain assumptions that are far from proven ...

In addition, a review observes:
"Despite the striking and abundant parallels, however, Joseph thinks that it would be a mistake to see John, Jesus, or the Jesus movement as Essenes or as having once been directly tied to the sect. The evidence often indicates disagreements between Jesus or his movement and the Essenes... "
Michael V Flowers PhD, The University of North Carolina at Pembroke, review here (emphasis mine)

 

[Thomas]

Glorified body or not, the author of Acts still describes the men physically looking up into the sky, so as far as I am concerned, Carl Sagan's point still applies.

Then I would say it seems both you and Carl Sagan have no real idea about symbolic language – but I don't believe that, rather I think you're both being overtly opaque and literalist in the attempt to make a point.

Suffice to say, symbolic language is universal, most expressions stemming from lived, sensible experience. Thus when one dies one goes 'down' as everything in nature does, back to the earth from whence it came, and by the same token anything that is considered superior, or transcendent, is invariably up ... it's so ubiquitous it makes sense ... same with light and dark, and so on ...

 

[Ahanu]

I'm not sure what you're point is here?

1. Can a Qumran priest transform into an angel? Yes or no? If yes, go to question no. 2. If you think it is a possibility, go to question no. 2.

2. Now that you believe a Qumran priest can transform into an angel or that it is a possibility, how do you think this person would read Malachi and understand what is going on in that Greek historian's description?

 

[Thomas]

1. Can a Qumran priest transform into an angel? Yes or no?

'Transform' – I'd have to read the context and study the terminology, but at first sight, no.

(That man might sit in judgement on angels – which suggests a higher status – yes, as St Paul says so.)

... how do you think this person would read Malachi and understand what is going on in that Greek historian's description?

From the citation you offer – Hecataeus seems an unreliable source of interpretation of Jewish religious practice?

 

[Ahanu]

From the citation you offer – Hecataeus seems an unreliable source of interpretation of Jewish religious practice?

And what about Malachi in the eyes of a Qumran priest?

 

[Thomas]

Actually, I think all that is something of an aside ...

Having dipped into "Human Station in the Baha'i Faith" I realise I have been labouring under a misconception.

There is no 'mystical/spiritual' element to the Baha'i faith whatsoever, whereas I had assumed there was – I did not realise how far from the Abrahamic Tradition is had gone.

If I read correctly, the terms 'soul' and 'spirit' mean the same thing – 'soul' is soul, 'spirit' is simply a qualifying term – 'he is the spirit of charity' a quality of the soul's activity. Everything else is just 'metaphor' and 'analogy' ... a very modern religion, in that sense.

I see no point in continuing the dialogue along these lines, we operate according to different paradigms.

+++

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Actually, I think all that is something of an aside ...

Having dipped into "Human Station in the Baha'i Faith" I realise I have been labouring under a misconception.

There is no 'mystical/spiritual' element to the Baha'i faith whatsoever, whereas I had assumed there was – I did not realise how far from the Abrahamic Tradition is had gone.

If I read correctly, the terms 'soul' and 'spirit' mean the same thing – 'soul' is soul, 'spirit' is simply a qualifying term – 'he is the spirit of charity' a quality of the soul's activity. Everything else is just 'metaphor' and 'analogy' ... a very modern religion, in that sense.

I see no point in continuing the dialogue along these lines, we operate according to different paradigms.

+++

I am very surprised at that statement.

It is far from the reality of the Mystical Writings of Baha'u'llah.

This is a link to the information on some of those writings.

Mystical Writings of Baha'u'llah

Numerous religious leaders and mystics were drawn to Baha’u’llah, often traveling long distances to visit Him, and all were satisfied with the conversations they had.

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

The Baha''i messenger and immediate family descendants have written down the final word of God for the entire human race for the next 800 years ...

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

The Baha''i messenger and immediate family descendants have written down the final word of God for the entire human race for the next 800 years ...

No it is not final, But this is a 'Day of God', which in the other OP was explained, that each 'Day of God' is around 1000 years, give or take a few hours (hundred years)

(Edit, sorry to Thomas and Ahanu, must look at what OP I am posting in)

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

No it is not final, But this is a 'Day of God', which in the other OP was explained, that each 'Day of God' is around 1000 years, give or take a few hours (hundred years)

(Edit, sorry to Thomas and Ahanu, must look at what OP I am posting in)

Regards Tony

That’s what I said — final for the next 800 years. Final enough for now.

The fact Bahá’u’lláh says something, that doesn’t make it true. It’s your rabbit hole, not mine, lol

 

[Thomas]

Has @Tony Bristow-Stagg gone?

That's a shame, because I was hoping for a dialogue between him and @Ahanu – I'm getting mixed messages here ...

Re the link Tony offered, I suppose we should interpret 'mystical', along with spirit, as some human operation ( of the soul), and not in any transcendental sense?

The accompanying text does say "His (Baha’u’llah's) station as a Manifestation of God" – then again, the majority of persons listed as such according to Baha’u’llah would take grave offence as being described as such and rebuke him as being in error.

 

[RJM]

Has @Tony Bristow-Stagg gone?

His choice. We let him proselytize but he overplays his hand with multiple Baha'i evangelizing posts across multiple threads, using the forums as his own personal soapbox until someone says something about it then he unchecks all his response boxes and disappears.

He's left his avatar this time, but changed it to a man bowing to an ostrich with its head in a hole -- and quite missing the irony, imo

 

[Ahanu]

Actually, I think all that is something of an aside ...

Having dipped into "Human Station in the Baha'i Faith" I realise I have been labouring under a misconception.

There is no 'mystical/spiritual' element to the Baha'i faith whatsoever, whereas I had assumed there was – I did not realise how far from the Abrahamic Tradition is had gone.

If I read correctly, the terms 'soul' and 'spirit' mean the same thing – 'soul' is soul, 'spirit' is simply a qualifying term – 'he is the spirit of charity' a quality of the soul's activity. Everything else is just 'metaphor' and 'analogy' ... a very modern religion, in that sense.

I see no point in continuing the dialogue along these lines, we operate according to different paradigms.

+++

@Thomas, thanks for your time and replies. Here is my final reply in response.

In my opinion Dr. Davudi articulated what is called in the philosophy of mind "phenomenal consciousness overflows access consciousness" - which means "our experience (phenomenal consciousness, what it is like to be us) outstrips in complexity our ability to express it (the parts of our consciousness we can express" (to quote Erik Hoel). The further we go back into the history of written language, the more apparent this becomes. Dr. Davudi said:

"Note that even in divine revelation, the use of spirit is associated with the concept of 'breathing into' the physical frame. This indicates that from the outset the explanation of a spiritual phenomenon appearing in a physical body had to be expressed in sensible and material terms comprehensible and imaginable by the believers . . ."

The rest of the context makes this clear to me. This explains why "we operate according to different paradigms" in my opinion. In some places you retain a literal understanding of these descriptions ("the indwelling spirit," "angels"), but in others you choose to see the descriptions of the ancients symbolically ("looking into the sky," "heaven opened and the Holy Spirit descended on him," and so on) because in these latter examples you reject a literal interpretation since you know they are impossible according to our modern understanding of the world. In the case of these latter examples, you have created a modern understanding of your religion and departed from the tradition if the ancients actually understood these descriptions to be literal truths.

The DSS and its descriptions of communion with angels were simply the best they could do to articulate their subjective experience/qualia/intelligible reality. What they were probably referring to in reality was a leader or a group of leaders in their community with heavenly attributes.