Gospel Jesus as lord of a here-and-now kingdom

[Namaste Jesus]

Do you see any reason to disagree with what I'm saying...

Well, I don't completely disagree with what you're saying, but as I've said, Jesus dying on the cross and subsequent resurrection is the corner stone of Christianity. Jesus' entire purpose was to secure our salvation. The rest of his teachings were all about walking the straight and narrow so as not to lose it.

 

[Longfellow]

It's a package. Paul's writings about salvation precede the gospels

Okay. Thank you.

 

[Namaste Jesus]

1. In the gospels, does Jesus ever say or even imply that He will be sacrificed to pay the price for our sins?

Matthew 26:26-28
While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.” Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. This is my blood of the[a] covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

 

[Longfellow]

Well lets just say, I don't completely disagree with what you're saying, but as I've said, Jesus dying on the cross and subsequent resurrection is the corner stone of Christianity. Jesus' entire purpose was to secure our salvation. The rest of his teachings were all about walking the straight and narrow so as not to lose it.

Thank you. I might not disagree with any of that, depending on what it means to you in practice.

One point of all this for me is that part of what I think that Jesus wants for people is to recognize and accept Him as a person to serve and obey above all others and to learn to live the way He says to live, and that making the Christian gospel all about salvation is a way for all people including Christians to avoid facing up to that.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Are you asking why Jesus Christ did what He did?
You'll never get it.

No, I think you're right there..

Variant views on salvation (soteriology) are among the main fault lines dividing the various Christian denominations,.
- wiki -

I smell something "fishy"

 

[RJM]

I smell something "fishy"

Who cares?

 

[Longfellow]

IMO @Cino is observing that the Pauline doctrine of salvation was already in circulation while the gospels were still taking shape, so the doctrine probably is not incidental at all

I responded to that here.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Who cares?

I do !
Salvation is a very important topic.

I, myself, certainly want to try to avoid hell-fire.
If we don't have the right attitude towards the life hereafter, we
have even more chance of something "going wrong".

 

[Namaste Jesus]

Thank you. I might not disagree with any of that, depending on what it means to you in practice.

One point of all this for me is that part of what I think that Jesus wants for people is to recognize and accept him as a person to serve and obey above all others and to learn to live the way He says to live, and that making the Christian gospel all about salvation is a way for all people including Christians to avoid facing up to that.

To me, the way Jesus taught us to live and our salvation go hand in hand. Yes, there are some followers of the Christian faith that incorrectly view their salvation through Jesus as a get out of jail free card and continue to do as they please, but I don't think your statement holds for the vast majority and that most understand the awesome price paid for their salvation and what that entails.

 

[Cino]

Are you saying that's a reason for disagreeing with what I'm saying, that in the gospels, recognizing Jesus as lord and being filled with a desire to learn to live the way he says to live, comes far ahead of any teachings, if there actually are any, about him being sacrificed to save us from the consequences of our sins?

Well, I am not a Christian and do not hold any beliefs about Sin or Redemption or the Messiah or the Son or the Heavenly Kingdom or the World to Come.

The Gospels present a very multi-faceted collection of Jesus' teachings. Almost anything can be derived from them, as the many Christian denominations, who all came up with different doctrines from the same source material, have shown us. But they also have much in common, and your interpretation does not include these. In this respect, it is not a Christian interpretation of the Gospels, which is fine by me, as long as you don't make the argument that you somehow have a better grip on what Jesus taught than his actual present-day devotees, and that they should agree with you. That would be inappropriate, I feel.

As far as historical research is concerned, do you have any reason to think that there weren't any people in the year 30 who believed that the temple would be destroyed some day?

Considering that this was already the second Temple, and people were generally educated about the history of their faith, it was not too far-fetched to imagine a repetition of events. Similar situation, similar results.

 

[RJM]

I, myself, certainly want to try to avoid hell-fire.
If we don't have the right attitude towards the life hereafter, we
have even more chance of something "going wrong

Well, as a Muslim don't you have your own arrangements?

 

[Longfellow]

... it is not a Christian interpretation of the Gospels ...

I agree. That's why I didn't post it in any Christian forum.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Well, as a Muslim don't you have your own arrangements?

You make it sound as if it's some kind of funeral club

I don't believe that anybody is exempt from suffering .. in this life or the next...apart from whom God has Mercy upon.

 

[Thomas]

In the gospels, does Jesus ever say or even imply that He will be sacrificed to pay the price for our sins?

Oh, I'd say the implication is there absolutely ... Look at the "I come" sayings (there's too many to list).

I think if one reads the Gospels in the context, according to sitz im leben, then the meaning is there.

Are you disagreeing with saying that in the gospels, Jesus talks much, much more about recognizing and accepting Him as a person to serve and obey and about learning to live the way He says to live, than He does about His death and resurrection and their significance?

His only authority for calling people to follow Him is the Father and His mission – salvation through repentance. His message is essentially religious, not humanist.

"Even as the Son of man is not come to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a redemption for many." Matthew 20:28.

"The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified. Amen, amen I say to you, unless the grain of wheat falling into the ground die, Itself remaineth alone. But if it die, it forth much fruit." (John 12:23-25 et seq to 33)

 

[Longfellow]

I'm seeing an answer to my question in how much people are evading it.

 

[Thomas]

I've given you direct citations?

 

[Longfellow]

I've given you direct citations?

Sorry, I didn't specify which question. Not that one. This one:

Are you disagreeing with saying that in the gospels, Jesus talks much, much more about recognizing and accepting Him as a person to serve and obey and about learning to live the way He says to live, than He does about His death and resurrection and their significance?

 

[Longfellow]

It's an open question for me how much truth there is in Paul's teachings, and in the doctrines of today's Christian churches, about salvation. It's an open question for me whether the gospels were first written before or after the letters of Paul. However that may be, I don't see anyone disagreeing with saying that in the gospels, Jesus talks much, much more about recognizing and accepting Him as a person to serve and obey and about learning to live the way He says to live, than He does about His death and resurrection and their significance, and He calls His gospel "gospel of the kingdom," not "gospel of salvation."

 

[Thomas]

Are you disagreeing with saying that in the gospels, Jesus talks much, much more about recognizing and accepting Him as a person to serve and obey and about learning to live the way He says to live, than He does about His death and resurrection and their significance?

Yes, because:
What does Jesus say about His authority to tell us how to live?
What is the point and purpose about living the way He says to live?
And what is His part in it?

 

[Longfellow]

Yes, because:
What does Jesus say about His authority to tell us how to live?
What is the point and purpose about living the way He says to live?
And what is His part in it?

That looks to me like saying that most or all of what Jesus says about recognizing and accepting Him as a person to serve and obey and about learning to live the way He says to live, is part of His teachings about salvation. If I'm understanding that right, then I see that as an answer to my question, and maybe what RJM was saying also. It might also help me to have a better attitude about people thinking that way. Thank you.

(later) It might not always be a way of evading the implications of Jesus being our lord. It might even be a way sometimes for people to embrace them. Like what I learned about the Trinity doctrine in a forum that was all about the Trinity.