Translation and the challenges it poses

Firedragon

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So, where do you get this, specifically?

Asking because all sources I can find indicate otherwise, and I'm interested in your sources.

Very good question.

My source of Pali as any Pali school that educate people is the Tipitaka and the tradition of the language taught in the script. It's great that you are asking for sources rather than making conjecture like you did and saying "Yes I am assuming" about a language that you don't understand from adam. ;) Though this is just a hypocritical approach to ignore someones argument with a "Tu Quoque", let me give you the direct source. Since you claimed you can understand the script you will definitely understand better. Cheers.

Read Sutta Pitaka, Anguttara Nikayo, 6th volume, Dasaka Nipatho, Tathiyo Pannasako, Michchantha Suttang, Just before Bijja Sutthang, the last paragraph. I will give you a snapshot and you can read and see.

View attachment 3127



And also take a look at the dictionary meaning.

View attachment 3128View attachment 3129

Now I would to see which "source:" you claim say otherwise. It will be an interesting read.

Thank you.
 

Aupmanyav

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Pali Text Society's Pali-English Dictionary gives the meaning as:
Sammanteti Sammanteti [saŋ+manteti] to consult together D i.142; J i.269, 399; DA i.135.
Manteti is derived from 'manthan', churning, churning of ideas. Sammanteti is 'good churning, good deliberation', IMHO.
'saŋ' is lik in 'samyukta' - together.
 

Firedragon

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Pali Text Society's Pali-English Dictionary gives the meaning as:

Manteti is derived from 'manthan', churning, churning of ideas. Sammanteti is 'good churning, good deliberation', IMHO.
'saŋ' is lik in 'samyukta' - together.

So where did the word Manthan come from? For what reason?

Anyway, your assumption or opinion about sammanteti becoming good because you add the prefix is wrong. You're attempt is acceptable because sa does make something good as in saguna or sapala. But not in this case because the samyukta you are talking about which means in conjunction or mixed together will not work. The Lopa does not work in this case. In fact, it's nonsensical. Yukta means "with or consisting of". Sam means "equal or fair". Samyuktha means "including fair" in its root. If you say Yukthi that means "justice".

In Pali Sammanteti is to mean to make a decision or plan after talking to each other. In unison. Samma means praiseworthy, together, properly, thoroughly, depending on the context. Sa is not added to Al Ma. It's like a joke. It's Sam manthethi. Sammanthethvaa is "after speaking to people" and Sammanthethi is "to speak to people". Sam is not a prefix to make it "good". Sam means "fairly or equally".

Good effort bro. Nice.
 

Cino

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Pali Text Society's Pali-English Dictionary gives the meaning as:

Manteti is derived from 'manthan', churning, churning of ideas. Sammanteti is 'good churning, good deliberation', IMHO.
'saŋ' is lik in 'samyukta' - together.

Interesting, but I think it's this one:

 

Cino

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Read Sutta Pitaka, Anguttara Nikayo, 6th volume, Dasaka Nipatho, Tathiyo Pannasako, Michchantha Suttang, Just before Bijja Sutthang, the last paragraph. I will give you a snapshot and you can read and see.

Thanks, will give it a try.

Meanwhile, I posted a verb conjugation table, and a dictionary entry. Please take a look.
 

Firedragon

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Thanks, will give it a try.

Meanwhile, I posted a verb conjugation table, and a dictionary entry. Please take a look.

I will wait for your claim that your sources defy what I said for some reason. Thanks.
 

Firedragon

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Thanks, will give it a try.

Honestly, there is nothing much to try because I have not only given you the reference in the Tipitaka, I even gave you an image of the word.

So it has to be easy for you. I can't understand why you have to give it a "try". Maybe I should give you the images once more so that you have not missed them. If you can't see the images, let me know, and if others also can't see the images then I know there is an uploading issue.

Screenshot 2022-10-30 at 13.57.45.png
Screenshot 2022-10-30 at 14.04.33.png
Screenshot 2022-10-30 at 14.04.51.png
 

Firedragon

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@RJM @Aupmanyav @muhammad_isa

Out of curiosity, can you see the images in the previous post? Just checking because I was asked to provide sources and @Cino tole me very clearly he can decipher the script but now it seems like it is not seen or something. So I am just clarifying if you could see these images above. If you also cannot, then it;s an uploading problem. I will attach the same images in this post also so that it is clear and everyone can see.

Please let me know if you can see these. @Cino especially.. Cheers.

Screenshot 2022-10-30 at 13.57.45.png
Screenshot 2022-10-30 at 14.04.33.png
Screenshot 2022-10-30 at 14.04.51.png
 

Cino

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You don't have to wait, I claimed that already, a couple of days ago, but I'll repeat: I am convinced that "sammanti" is the verb "sammati" (derived from the verbal root √sam), in the third person plural of the present indicative. I posted the dictionary entry and the conjugation table with the verb endings in support.

Thus, I am not convinced at all that it is derived from "samma" and "antha", as you claim.

Of course, I'll give that sutta a read regardless.
 

Firedragon

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You don't have to wait, I claimed that already, a couple of days ago, but I'll repeat: I am convinced that "sammanti" is the verb "sammati" (derived from the verbal root √sam), in the third person plural of the present indicative. I posted the dictionary entry and the conjugation table with the verb endings in support.

Thus, I am not convinced at all that it is derived from "samma" and "antha", as you claim.

Of course, I'll give that sutta a read regardless.

Since you can read the script as you claimed, I really cannot understand why it takes such a long time to read it. It's pretty strange really.

I thought there was some problem with the uploading of an image since it's been so long and you even kind of challenged me when I addressed another person but so far I cannot see your response.

I think I will indulge in this language banter because you are pretending to know it. It's a waste of time with pretenders and I have always known it was so.

It's better to ask questions and learn something.

At least try to follow in @Aupmanyav 's footsteps where he does not pretend to know the script but says that he tries to relate to them through his personal linguistic knowledge of similar languages. That is a higher path. And he gets it right mostly one way or another.

Have a good day.
 

Firedragon

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You don't have to wait, I claimed that already, a couple of days ago, but I'll repeat: I am convinced that "sammanti" is the verb "sammati"

Well. That's utter nonsense my friend. ;)

Why don't you just state that you don't know what you are talking about instead?

Do you know what Sammata means? What's the difference between Sammata and Sammantha?
 

Cino

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Well. That's utter nonsense my friend. ;)

Why don't you just state that you don't know what you are talking about instead?

Do you know what Sammata means? What's the difference between Sammata and Sammantha?

Would you pause the insults for a minute, and address the dictionary entry, and the table of verb endings?
 

RJM

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@Firedragon
These are polite forums. You may think you are a walking encyclopedia, but if you cannot address others in a polite manner, you are invited to take your knowledge elsewhere
 

Cino

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Very good question.

My source of Pali as any Pali school that educate people is the Tipitaka and the tradition of the language taught in the script. It's great that you are asking for sources rather than making conjecture like you did and saying "Yes I am assuming" about a language that you don't understand from adam. ;) Though this is just a hypocritical approach to ignore someones argument with a "Tu Quoque", let me give you the direct source. Since you claimed you can understand the script you will definitely understand better. Cheers.

Read Sutta Pitaka, Anguttara Nikayo, 6th volume, Dasaka Nipatho, Tathiyo Pannasako, Michchantha Suttang, Just before Bijja Sutthang, the last paragraph. I will give you a snapshot and you can read and see.

View attachment 3127



And also take a look at the dictionary meaning.

View attachment 3128View attachment 3129

Now I would to see which "source:" you claim say otherwise. It will be an interesting read.

Thank you.

Okay. Transliteration first (entire sutta, it is a nice one!) - I got it from the CSCD site, to speed things up, since I'm not joking when I use the term "decypher" - it takes me some time to do it properly.

Micchattasuttaṃ

‘‘Micchattaṃ , bhikkhave, āgamma virādhanā hoti, no ārādhanā. Kathañca, bhikkhave, micchattaṃ āgamma virādhanā hoti, no ārādhanā? Micchādiṭṭhikassa, bhikkhave, micchāsaṅkappo pahoti, micchāsaṅkappassa micchāvācā pahoti, micchāvācassa micchākammanto pahoti, micchākammantassa micchāājīvo pahoti, micchāājīvassa micchāvāyāmo pahoti, micchāvāyāmassa micchāsati pahoti, micchāsatissa micchāsamādhi pahoti, micchāsamādhissa micchāñāṇaṃ pahoti, micchāñāṇissa [micchāñāṇassa (pī. ka.)] micchāvimutti pahoti. Evaṃ kho, bhikkhave, micchattaṃ āgamma virādhanā hoti, no ārādhanā.


‘‘Sammattaṃ, bhikkhave, āgamma ārādhanā hoti, no virādhanā. Kathañca, bhikkhave, sammattaṃ āgamma ārādhanā hoti, no virādhanā? Sammādiṭṭhikassa, bhikkhave, sammāsaṅkappo pahoti, sammāsaṅkappassa sammāvācā pahoti, sammāvācassa sammākammanto pahoti, sammākammantassa sammāājīvo pahoti, sammāājīvassa sammāvāyāmo pahoti, sammāvāyāmassa sammāsati pahoti, sammāsatissa sammāsamādhi pahoti, sammāsamādhissa sammāñāṇaṃ pahoti, sammāñāṇissa [sammāñāṇassa (pī. ka.)] sammāvimutti pahoti. Evaṃ kho, bhikkhave, sammattaṃ āgamma ārādhanā hoti, no virādhanā’’ti.

So the second paragraph would be the section starting with, "Sammattaṃ, bhikkave, ...", right ? ;) It lists ten factors explaining how rightness, "sammattam¨, leads to success - how right resolve leads to right speech, and so on, all the way up to right release.

Here is Ven. Thanissaro's translation: Wrongness (Micchatta Sutta)

If I get your drift, you selected this text because of the word "Sammattaṃ" and the many recurrences of "sammā"?

I maintain that this has nothing at all to do with the verb "sammati" from the Dhammapada verse we were discussing. But I would be interested in your explanation how this could actually be the case - minus the haughty attitude and the insults wrapped in smileys and claims to friendship.
 

Firedragon

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Would you pause the insults for a minute, and address the dictionary entry, and the table of verb endings?

Try and ask questions and learn something Cino. Humility will never let you down. Don't always try to teach people when your knowledge is so poor. If you think it's an insult, thats fine, but see, you insulted me with a Tu Quoque for a completely irrelevant topic and question I asked from someone else, that is if I want to take it as an insult. But I do not try to teach people things I have no clue about.

Your question has been answer multiple times anyway. So please refer to them.

Thanks.
 

Firedragon

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So the second paragraph would be the section starting with, "Sammattaṃ, bhikkave, ...", right ? ;) It lists ten factors explaining how rightness, "sammattam¨, leads to success - how right resolve leads to right speech, and so on, all the way up to right release.

Here is Ven. Thanissaro's translation: Wrongness (Micchatta Sutta)

If I get your drift, you selected this text because of the word "Sammattaṃ" and the many recurrences of "sammā"?

I maintain that this has nothing at all to do with the verb "sammati" from the Dhammapada verse we were discussing. But I would be interested in your explanation how this could actually be the case - minus the haughty attitude and the insults wrapped in smileys and claims to friendship.

You got it absolutely wrong. Everything.
 

Firedragon

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@Firedragon
These are polite forums. You may think you are a walking encyclopedia, but if you cannot address others in a polite manner, you are invited to take your knowledge elsewhere

Okay. Thanks for everyone's contribution. Have a good day.
 
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Cino

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You got it absolutely wrong. Everything.

I seriously doubt that.

It's kind of ironic that it was you who pointed me at Micchattasutta. The first half contains this passage:

In a person of wrong view, wrong resolve comes into being.
In a person of wrong resolve, wrong speech. ...

Okay. Thanks for everyone's contribution. Have a good day.

Anyway. I didn't learn any Pali from you, but I learned - again - that the internet contains a lot of hot air balloons. Happy sailing!
 
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