Religious Beliefs and Morality

[juantoo3]

Now I'm just a grumpy old man, grumpiest of the grumps...other than Bananabrain. Nobody could outgrump Bananabrain.

 

[Faithfulservant]

Oooh I just got sad! I was scrolling through old threads in Judaism and saw a post from Dor. I was avoiding them 😭

 

[juantoo3]

*Dauer and Bananabrain* I miss them too. And Q.. and iBrian. I'm sending them all psychic messages.. it worked on you!

I love you too.

 

[juantoo3]

Oooh I just got sad! I was scrolling through old threads in Judaism and saw a post from Dor. I was avoiding them 😭

Hugs.

 

[juantoo3]

Now that I think about it..."the Jews" as Christianity views that early period were composed of the Tribe of Levi (the Priests) and the Tribe of Judah (if memory serves, the King, at least of the South after the "10" were carried away), and the remnant of Benjamin...which is a long story in itself for another day.

I seem to recall Paul being associated with the Tribe of Benjamin...a minority but a significant one. Maybe that's b.s. too, I'm open to correction. It does seem odd Paul would be so well trained in Rabbinical Law, almost as a Rabbi himself, he stood by and held the coats of those who stoned Stephen. If Paul was born a Roman citizen in Turkey as Thomas recently pointed to, he must have been born to some wealthy parents I would presume to be able to afford to live abroad. Paul was a tent maker by trade according to tradition, and earned his keep around his ministry. Paul did not take charity from his Churches, and on at least one occasion he returned to Jerusalem with a huge Tithe collected from all of the satellite churches founded...that was the time he crossed swords with Peter.

Jesus' followers and people were hard scrabble people with a long standing grudge against the Romans, in little villages ringing the Galilee. Working class people that today we would say they didn't have two nickels to rub together. It was these hard scrabble people that rose up with Bar Kochba and tried to throw off the yoke of the Romans, but it was destined to failure. These are the ones I'm calling the Hasmoneans.

 

[juantoo3]

Your post spoke about the Hasmoneans distancing themselves from Christians. I asked what Hasmoneans because basically there were no Hasmoneans by the time of Jesus. As for the Zealots, they were neither hoping for nor working for the restoration of the Hasmoneans. Certainly the Zealots were inspired by the Maccabees and wished to emulate them, but the Hasmoneans very rapidly became as rotten as the forces their forebears had fought against.

As for Hanukkah, the story of the oil is Talmudic. It does not appear in the various books of the Maccabees nor anywhere else prior to the Talmudic midrash. The victory against the Syrians is true, the rededication of the Temple, which is what the name of the holiday means, is true, hence the holiday. There is a reason why there is a story in the Talmud about a miracle. Some othe time perhaps.

I would like that, thank you

 

[TheLightWithin]

*Dauer and Bananabrain* I miss them too. And Q.. and iBrian. I'm sending them all psychic messages.. it worked on you!

& @juantoo 3
All these memories of people you knew in long years past... My head spins wondering how it took this long for me to discover this forum.
Judging by the oldest threads I've seen... You must be referring as far back as early 2000s. I would have reveled in it in those days, I was new to such things and really beginning more serious study of world religions ... I look at old threads here wondering if maybe I did know about it years ago and joined and somehow forgot, wondering if I will recognize something in old messages as my own, under an unfamiliar name... maybe...
Hopefully the whole forum will keep going and going and I will eventually also be an old timer... a newer old timer.

 

[moralorel]

& @juantoo 3
All these memories of people you knew in long years past... My head spins wondering how it took this long for me to discover this forum.
Judging by the oldest threads I've seen... You must be referring as far back as early 2000s. I would have reveled in it in those days, I was new to such things and really beginning more serious study of world religions ... I look at old threads here wondering if maybe I did know about it years ago and joined and somehow forgot, wondering if I will recognize something in old messages as my own, under an unfamiliar name... maybe...
Hopefully the whole forum will keep going and going and I will eventually also be an old timer... a newer old timer.

I wish I had found this forum years ago. When Yahoo first started their Answers forums, I was one of the first people to start conversations in the religion & spirituality section. The first few years were great! Met a lot of interesting people and learned a lot about the world. We did a good job of getting rid of the trolls. But eventually the trolls swarmed, and the forum became full of immaturity and ignorance.

 

[juantoo3]

Forums take on a life of their own. They have growing pains, they have teenage angst, they have all sorts of family issues, they get sick...and all too often simply pass away.

During my time, I never thought of myself as in charge, for one I didn't have access to more than the basic site management tools. So I guess I was more of a steward of sorts. When I left the first time it was with hurt feelings, like my effort wasn't valued anymore, or maybe I somehow let the place down...but now I think Brian simply wanted to change things up a bit and go in a different direction. It was his place and his prerogative to do so.

Over the intervening years I would pop in from time to time. The tenor of discussion changed, I don't know another way to put it. Gradually, almost imperceptibly, new moderation narrowed what was allowed. If what you had to say wasn't in line with the status quo, you were booted. Faithful knows that's not how I operate, and in no time I was booted. Trumped up charges I might add. The reality is what I posted was fact that conflicted with what the mod promoted.

After that I couldn't even sign on, and on my old computer couldn't even see the site, and work was blocked too. No surprise to me, conversation - and membership - quickly dropped off after that. (I am not attributing that to myself)

RJM gained operational control, Wil and Thomas became mods (I don't know details) and I got an email out of the blue, and they worked to get my access back. Took a bit, previous staff went to great lengths to insure I didn't have access. I still see that as a metaphor for what is going on the past few years in this country.

I'm grateful for the effort, but I acknowledge I also have a chip on my shoulder...and that's why I say I'm a grumpy old man now. I'm no longer restrained by the decorum required to be a mod (as if that seems to matter anymore...), so I would stand up to the bullies and wanna be prophets and set them straight, and then get bored or need to attend real life and disappear for awhile.

This place has long served a deep spiritual need for me, I haven't been able to fully turn my back and walk away. It's good to see you back, but I question whether this place could ever be the same as it was back then. That isn't the fault of the current mod staff, they are doing what they feel is best for the site now. But so much internet activity and socializing has moved on to other platforms and other formats. I'm not on any social media, too much drama...consequently I have a limited range of places I go to now. Where I see more and more people around me consumed with the internet, I think I indulge too much as it is with the few places I do go. Where I do go I try in my way to provide quality, not quantity. Can't do that effectively on social media.

 

[Faithfulservant]

I'm glad I was not around during that transition. I don't know if I would have come back.

 

[juantoo3]

& @juantoo 3
All these memories of people you knew in long years past... My head spins wondering how it took this long for me to discover this forum.
Judging by the oldest threads I've seen... You must be referring as far back as early 2000s. I would have reveled in it in those days, I was new to such things and really beginning more serious study of world religions ... I look at old threads here wondering if maybe I did know about it years ago and joined and somehow forgot, wondering if I will recognize something in old messages as my own, under an unfamiliar name... maybe...
Hopefully the whole forum will keep going and going and I will eventually also be an old timer... a newer old timer.

I think I signed on in 2004. I was writing a paper in school near the end of my degree...nontraditional student completed a 4 year degree in 3, graduated Summa *** Laude and a member of the National Honor Society. Wow, I don't often write that all out.

I've gone looking for the old threads. I can't find them. When the site converted over from CR to IO (never got used to those initials), a lot of older threads disappeared. I know there's been at least one, maybe two changes of host, and that impacted things too. It happens.

I was looking for something in anthropology and the site had like a news clip of something they found somewhere, I don't even remember now. So when I was done with the article I looked at the site and it piqued my interest.

I also recall an early thread by some of the original founding members...Phyllis might remember the one guy wrote the book, after my encounter he disappeared, never got a good opportunity to have a conversation between us. I remember Bruaguach (probably spelled that wrong, I looked it up and it was a variant name for the Wild Man), and brucegdc...is that right, Phyllis? Anyway, it was basically a dare for a fundy Christian to stand in front of them to interrogate, and make fun of.

I hadn't been here two months, and I stood in front of the lot, and called them out. That included Brian.

I reminded them how hypocritical to claim to be inclusive, while gang tackling for sport.

I was treated differently after that day, and within a couple days I was the new mod.

 

[juantoo3]

I wish I had found this forum years ago. When Yahoo first started their Answers forums, I was one of the first people to start conversations in the religion & spirituality section. The first few years were great! Met a lot of interesting people and learned a lot about the world. We did a good job of getting rid of the trolls. But eventually the trolls swarmed, and the forum became full of immaturity and ignorance.

I'll just say I carried the moderator experience with me elsewhere, and put it to good use. None of my internet jobs since has been quite as challenging. Not so bad if you have tools, but without tools and without access to higher level authority who does have tools, makes it exceptionally difficult to do the job...and I ended up in a similar situation at another site where I modded. Mods got locked out of tools, and that included the site owner. Our host sold to another host, who proceeded to strip the tools from the mod staff and confiscated the content. I refused to sign my stuff over so they locked me out of my account completely.

So I opened a new site with the former owner's permission, and the membership followed me to the new site, and we've been active now coming up on 4 years. 3 or 4. So I know very well what the mod staff here is going through.

Here I'm having fun, coming here isn't another unpaid job...I already have one of those. I come when I want, I leave when I want, and I can do a lousy imitation of Bananabrain.

 

[juantoo3]

Your post spoke about the Hasmoneans distancing themselves from Christians. I asked what Hasmoneans because basically there were no Hasmoneans by the time of Jesus. As for the Zealots, they were neither hoping for nor working for the restoration of the Hasmoneans. Certainly the Zealots were inspired by the Maccabees and wished to emulate them, but the Hasmoneans very rapidly became as rotten as the forces their forebears had fought against.

As for Hanukkah, the story of the oil is Talmudic. It does not appear in the various books of the Maccabees nor anywhere else prior to the Talmudic midrash. The victory against the Syrians is true, the rededication of the Temple, which is what the name of the holiday means, is true, hence the holiday. There is a reason why there is a story in the Talmud about a miracle. Some othe time perhaps.

Greetings @RabbiO!

When I first replied you were editing a post, and I moved on, not to be impolite but I had a lot of ground to cover.

I am very much looking forward to your invitation.

If I may, I am allowing I don't know the minute breakdown of Judaic society in the Holy Land just prior to the razing of the Temple by the Romans.

The Priests were the Tribe of Levi, have been since Aaron. The Priest class of Judaism as I understand, please correct me, are all of the tribe of Levi (hence my confusion with Paul's studious Rabbinical knowledge). Judah is the Tribe as I recall of the Kings, like David and Solomon. And Saul.

May I presume, am I correct in presuming, the official Hasmoneans as you say were no more, would they have been in the ruling class, therefor Tribe of Judah, or is there some other "civil" division that took place I am not aware of? Even in the time of Herod the Great, there was the ruling class, which worked very closely with the Priest class, and then you had the masses of common folk.

I'm inclined to think the Levites probably did pretty well overall. The ruling class of Judah I'm certain did well, and they both worked nicely with the occupying Romans. It was the poor of Judah and Benjamin that were the cannon fodder of Bar Kochba.

I called them Hasmoneans for two reasons. First, there was a deep undercurrent of National sentiment of cultural pride lost, among the Zealots. Second, while the ruling classes fed off of the partnership with Rome very well, the masses of people didn't always fare so well.

Jerusalem had already had issues after the Babylonian captivity...this was even before the Hannukah period. And as it usually goes in pretty much every culture that becomes a significant power, the rich get richer and the poor get babies. And as it usually goes, a resentment grows in the poorer classes.

We have Qumran to consider. Were they ultra orthodox? From what I've seen it appears that way, pretty severe even for Jews, in my opinion. Didn't do them any good, Rome took them out first. I think Masada is a pretty good foretaste of the civil messiah period.

Any way we care to look at the matter, the Christian Church at Jerusalem was destroyed at the same time as the Temple. James, the blood brother of Jesus, had only just been thrown to his death from the roof of the Temple according to tradition.

The Jerusalem Christians may or may not have thrown in with their neighbors when the Jews regrouped after Masada, but any way one looks at it they had far lesser numbers. I don't know the teaching, if it was pacifist or not, but this was these folks' homes. Even in my most peaceful desires, if someone attacks my home and I have a means to defend against that attack...I would do so, especially if I have a family and kids.

So whether the earliest Christians (can't even honestly say that - Glastonbury), sided at first with their Jewish brothers and neighbors, I would be inclined to think some did and some didn't. Doesn't really even matter.

By the time of the fall of Bar Kochba, the Christians and the Jews broke with each other. It may have happened earlier, but Bar Kochba was the final straw. The Jews thought the Christians were traitors, and the Christians were just hoping to survive...and they didn't.

Had Paul not carried Christianity to the Pagans, Christianity would be no more than a curious footnote in the history books.

 

[TheLightWithin]

I think I signed on in 2004. I was writing a paper in school near the end of my degree...nontraditional student completed a 4 year degree in 3, graduated Summa *** Laude and a member of the National Honor Society. Wow, I don't often write that all out.

I've gone looking for the old threads. I can't find them. When the site converted over from CR to IO (never got used to those initials), a lot of older threads disappeared. I know there's been at least one, maybe two changes of host, and that impacted things too. It happens.

I was looking for something in anthropology and the site had like a news clip of something they found somewhere, I don't even remember now. So when I was done with the article I looked at the site and it piqued my interest.

I also recall an early thread by some of the original founding members...Phyllis might remember the one guy wrote the book, after my encounter he disappeared, never got a good opportunity to have a conversation between us. I remember Bruaguach (probably spelled that wrong, I looked it up and it was a variant name for the Wild Man), and brucegdc...is that right, Phyllis? Anyway, it was basically a dare for a fundy Christian to stand in front of them to interrogate, and make fun of.

I hadn't been here two months, and I stood in front of the lot, and called them out. That included Brian.

I reminded them how hypocritical to claim to be inclusive, while gang tackling for sport.

I was treated differently after that day, and within a couple days I was the new mod.

I've seen it a few times the old name for the site "CR" What did CR stand for?🤔

 

[juantoo3]

Comparative Religion

 

[moralorel]

I didn't realize this place went through so much change and hardships. Glad you all stuck with it and kept it going!

 

[Thomas]

@bobX, @earle and @radarmark ... Oh dear, I posted this elsewhere ... a sign of age ...

 

[juantoo3]

I'm glad I was not around during that transition. I don't know if I would have come back.

It was a rough time for those few folks that held on.

 

[RJM]

@StevePame did a great job of keeping IO afloat alone and at his own expense for seven years or more. He lost his teaching job due to covid, and wasn't able to keep the site going financially, so he cast around and I accepted the challenge. Hopefully Steve is back on his feet now. He logs in sometimes and will respond to PM's sent to him.

There was a strong difference of opinion between Steve and Juan over a post that Steve considered to contain a death threat (not directed at him) which caused Steve to delete the post and to ban Juan, along with a ban on his IP. It was locating the IP that was a problem, before the ban could be lifted.

@Cino is an essential element of IO. He is our vital IT guy, giving from his own time and expertise.

We operate IO as a combined effort now, taking decisions after consultation with one another.

@juantoo3 the offer to become a moderator is still open to you. The job is mostly just consultation. Anyway -- your participation here on the forums is greatly appreciated. You were missed

All IMO as always

(edited)

 

[RJM]

I'm trying to be scarce, these days, for my own reasons ...

It's great to be learning this history of the site from long term members.. It would be good to know more, from you