The Mystery of God’s Will Unfolding in this Matrix 2

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TheLightWithin said:
AFAIK Muslims tend to think both Judaism and Christianity have "corrupted" scriptures (correct if wrong but that is what i have often read)
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Correct.

Nevertheless, both Faiths are declared valid in the Qur'an; and both Jews and Christians who believe in the Almighty - and who do good works - are promised Heaven.
 
"although nobody is required to believe these things." RJM #70
https://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/16744/page-4#post-380643

I agree, though it's not rare for hardcore evangelists to rave and warn about dire afterlife consequences if one does not.

This scares some people and causes total cynicism in others.

Faithfulservant said:
Once again I ask why this thread isn't in the Baha'i forum??
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I wonder if we shouldn't have -- do we have ??-- a thread explicitly for comparative debate.

If an item truly doesn't fit a Christian thread it could be moved over by mods.

In my few months of observation I have come to think that so much conversation happens on the thread because so much conversation happens on the Christian thread. What I mean is, that seems to be where the people are and where the action is. Or discussion.

I love the comparative discussions. But some of it hits a wrong note with people I think because at least on some threads it doesn't belong.
For my purposes this is at least part of what I'm here for. I'd welcome more of it. I'd love it if it got super theologically technical. There are moments it does.

But if many particular threads are meant more for intra-religious discussions the comparative debate may seem out of place.

I hope we can continue to garner multiple representatives from various faiths so that all the boards -- Bahai Judaism Islam Buddhism Hinduism etc have lively discussions within them. I only regret not being on this forum before to experience some of the history. Great stuff.
Faithfulservant said:
it feels like some heavy plagiarism going on in your religion.
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I guess I kind of said anything I would have said here - post #60.

RJM said:
I don't deny it, and I don't do it;
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😇 😇
Excellent.
I'd love to see more of the comparative discussion that way - technical examination and contrasting of beliefs without much of the group feeling like they're being told they're wrong.

I think it's a skill - holding fast to one's beliefs without OMG THEY GOT IT ALL WRONG!
I suppose it doesn't come easy.... for people with intense convicions?
Or maybe easier for some than others?
 
RJM said:
The thread is not in the Christian forum or even the Abrahamic forum
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Oh right...
Well maybe there could be an explicit forum for Comparative Analyses and anything that doesn't fit could get moved there?
I really like the discussions and I would gravitate right to it.
If others don't want to hear it they have more freedom to not be in the thick of it or feel threads are diverted or something.
 
TheLightWithin said:
Well maybe there could be an explicit forum for Comparative Analyses and anything that doesn't fit could get moved there?
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There is a comparative religion forum. But this forum is meant to be for religious discussion that doesn't just center on one faith, I believe. I think Tony posted this here and not on the Baha'i forum on purpose. Which is fine, as long as this doesn't become an attempt to spread Baha'u'llah's message again lol.
 
Modesty said:
There is a comparative religion forum. But this forum is meant to be for religious discussion that doesn't just center on one faith, I believe. I think Tony posted this here and not on the Baha'i forum on purpose. Which is fine, as long as this doesn't become an attempt to spread Baha'u'llah's message again lol.
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Excellent, that array of threads deserves to be more active.

So, my humble suggestion - if something said (say a doctrinal claim from any faith) appears to hijack the thread, can it be moved to a fresh thread on the Comparative Studies?
I'm thrilled to have discussions that go in depth as to doctrine of other religions.
But some of our established threads may be going in other directions and ifI understand correctly, it many members dont' feel roped into the comparative discussions on the regular and are becoming weary. I'd want to look at them. And maybe other members would feel differently if they could come and go from those discussions. (?dont know just hopeful speculation on my part)
 
TheLightWithin said:
So, my humble suggestion - if something said (say a doctrinal claim from any faith) appears to hijack the thread, can it be moved to a fresh thread on the Comparative Studies?
I'm thrilled to have discussions that go in depth as to doctrine of other religions.
But some of our established threads may be going in other directions and ifI understand correctly, it many members dont' feel roped into the comparative discussions on the regular and are becoming weary. I'd want to look at them. And maybe other members would feel differently if they could come and go from those discussions. (?dont know just hopeful speculation on my part)
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I definitely get what you're saying. I think the issue is that this is an interfaith website. So doctrinal clashing should be expected to some degree. I guess people can stay in the subforum for their religious group if they don't want to see doctrines from other religions, but even within every religion there's wildly different views, so comparative discussion of some sort is inevitable. I don't think the main issue is that, I think the issue is aggressively promoting only one view. I'm (and I think we all are?) totally up for comparative religious discussion, but it has to be just that- comparing and discussing different religious views, not one person trying to dominate the entire conversation with just their view.
 
Basically, I don't think any of us have an issue with seeing comparative religious discussion. I think that's a big part of anything interfaith. It's proselytizing that is the issue.
 
Modesty said:
I think the issue is aggressively promoting only one view. I'm (and I think we all are?) totally up for comparative religious discussion, but it has to be just that- comparing and discussing different religious views, not one person trying to dominate the entire conversation with just their view.
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Modesty said:
Basically, I don't think any of us have an issue with seeing comparative religious discussion. I think that's a big part of anything interfaith. It's proselytizing that is the issue.
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I guess that is what people think, it's not landing quite the same way for me but I get it sort of if I think of what it would be like if a Christian kept hammering away about the Isaiah prophecies or other Christian interpretations of the OT/Hebrew bible in a situation where many of the other member were Jews. However of course there could be room for lively debate depending on other factors.

I guess what I'm saying is that the strategy I suggested could address the concern, set boundaries without there having to be confrontation or members getting mad or someone feeling like they have to leave etc -- just an alternate way to redirect if and when the statements seem to various members to be crossing the line.
 
Thomas said:
No, because if that was the case then all comets would be heralds of something, wouldn't they?
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That is an observation we could consider.

The Gospels record a Star that heralded Jesus. My guess is that only a few people understood that was a sign.

More than likely it is not known what Star that was. So basically it is an event seen only by a few.

Likewise it will be the same for all Manifestations of God, as for the Stars that heralded the Bab and Baha'u'llah, the book is open to which one's they were, ut is not set in concrete.

Baha'u'llah offered this. ".....when the hour draweth nigh on which the Day-star of the heaven of justice shall be made manifest, and the Ark of divine guidance shall sail upon the sea of glory, a star will appear in the heaven, heralding unto its people the advent of that most great light. In like manner, in the invisible heaven a star shall be made manifest who, unto the peoples of the earth, shall act as a harbinger of the break of that true and exalted Morn. These twofold signs, in the visible and the invisible heaven, have announced the Revelation of each of the Prophets of God..."

It is a mystery as to why it is said it is a sign, yet so many people will deny that it is, or mist likely reject it as a sign, if they did actually witness the Star that was the given sign.

So we have determined this is not a good proof of the Messenger for a vast majority of people, likewise, it is then logical we are not able to use it as proof for Jesus.

Regards Tony
 
Thomas said:
Tony, I'm sure you're well aware that a vast number of claimants down through the ages have made the same claims as you regarding the the fulfilment of Biblical promises and prophecies ...

I have raised the issue of the nature of the Paraclete in the New Testament, and demonstrated the errors and flaws in arguments offered in the Baha'i interpretations of Scripture – which you are unable to address – that you cannot validate your interpretation of the Johannine texts undoes this argument.
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The key here is that amongst the false, God gives us the True Messengers and they are the only embodiment of the Holy Spirit, the Messengers God Annoints. No other human is Annointed with the Holy Spirit. We need the 'Spirit of Faith', to be born again into that Spirit by submission to God's Will reflected from the Messengers. That is why Jesus said we must be born again, born from the human Spirit, embracing the Spirit of Faith into the light of the Holy Spirit.

This topic has many explanations in the Baha'i Writings that give great clarity to the Subject of the Spirits interaction in this Matrix.

That people do not except those explanations, does not mean the subject has not been addressed by the 3 Messengers of God that have been Manifested after Jesus the Christ. (I offer that as a statement of truth relative to my frames of references)

Another Mystery, humamity has always rejected the Wisdom of God over their own perceived academic achievement. It is our pride that is our downfall.

I offer that as I reflect on my own self Thomas, I am not saying that to you as an individual.

Regards Tony
 
Thomas said:
Let's be clear, a prophet is declared by the Word of the Lord on the Prophet's lips – not that the Prophet is called 'the mouth of the Lord' by name, that's an analogy.
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I have a different frame of reference about God Thomas, I see God as the Most Great Spirit, unknowable, unreachable, who does not decend into creation. I would offer as such, that God does not Have a mouth, so yes it will be an apology applicable only to the Messengers. What I have come to understand from what Baha'u'llah offered, is that the Holy Spirit is also created of God, that Spirit is all we can know of God, and that Spirit can is seen in the "Self of God", the Messenger.

As such the Mouth of the Messengers, who speak to us Annointed of the Holy Spirit, the embodiment of all Knowledge, from the First Messenger, to the Last Messengers, that have no beginning and have no end, given to humanity and as such are the given "Mouth of the Lord".

Baha'u'llah has given great detail on the Twofold Staion of the Messengers. One station as the "Self of God" and the other Station as a human like us.

Regards Tony
 
Thomas said:
Again, I don't think God had material wealth in mind.
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That is the great thing about the Word of God Thomas, it has multiple meanings. Only the Messengers can explain all those meanings.

I see we limit our own selves in the knowledge of God's Word.

I share this as a thought. "...Not only do the words uttered by the Manifestations have inner meanings but even a single letter contains divine mysteries and significances. There is a well-known tradition in Islám--attributed to 'Alí, the first Imám and the lawful successor of Muhammad--that the essence of all the Scriptures of past Dispensations is to be found in the Qur'án, that the Qur'án itself is contained in the opening chapter, that this chapter is embodied in the first verse, that the first verse in its entirety is included in the first letter (B),* and that all that is within this letter is condensed in the dot beneath it. This clearly indicates that the Word of God is transcendental in its nature and far beyond the comprehension of men..."

Both the Bab and Baha'u'llah  have revealed voluminous Writings on the interpretation and the inner significances of some individual letters. The Bab in His commentary on the 'Súriy-i-V'al-'Asr', one of the chapters of the Qur'án, devoted no less than three thousand verses in explanation of the significance of the first letter 'V' of that Súrih.

Bahá'u'lláh has also revealed many amazing tablets in which He has dwelt on the interpretation of individual letters, or Words, or verses.

Regards Tony
 
Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
The Bab in His commentary on the 'Súriy-i-V'al-'Asr', one of the chapters of the Qur'án, devoted no less than three thousand verses in explanation of the significance of the first letter 'V' of that Súrih.
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Sure beats spending your day healing the lepers and cripples, and raising the dead and giving sight to the blind ... yup
 
Niblo said:
Hi Tony.

What does this mean, exactly?

Blessings.
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Hello Niblo, great to hear from you, I hope you are well and happy.

I am not able to answer your question in any academic way but to offer what Baha'u'llah offered. There is a Tablet that was translated by Shoghi Effendi, and Julian Coal has done further translations at this link.

bahai-library.com

He who knoweth his self hath known his Lord (Man 'arafa nafsahu faqad 'arafa Rabbahu): Commentary

Translation by Shoghi Effendi, completed by Cole. Themes include Islamic mysticism and the meaning of detachment, the meaning of the hadith about knowing one's self, the meaning of Return, and the hadith 'The believer is alive in both worlds.'
bahai-library.com bahai-library.com

From what I understand it is about knowing one's own self, knowing the image we are made in.

An extract from the Link, that Tablet is;

"He who knoweth his self hath known his Lord (Man ‘arafa nafsahú faqad ‘arafa Rabbahú): A commentary by Bahá'u'lláh
translated by Shoghi Effendi and Juan Cole
1996

I will highlight in bold and put my thoughts in brackets.

"....For in all things is present and visible the sign of the effulgence of the self-subsistent Glory and the rays of the manifestation of the unique Sun. This sign is not and never shall be confined to any one soul. This is the truth, and no doubt lies therein, if you be among those who know. But the primary intent of knowing the self in this station is the knowledge of the Self of God (the Messengers) in every era and age. For the pre-existent essence and the ocean of reality is exalted above the knowledge of all else but Him (the knowledgeof the Messenger). Therefore, the insight attained by all the mystics actually hath reference to their insight into the Manifestations of His Cause. They are the Self of God among His servants, His Manifestation in His Creation, His Sign among His creatures. Whoso knoweth them hath known god, whoso hath affirmed them hath affirmed God, whoso hath acknowledged Their truth hath acknowledged the signs of God, the Help in Peril, the Everlasting. Thus do We reveal for you the signs, that you might be guided by the Signs of God..."

This Tablet has much mystical thought, the end of the Tablet gives much promise for our own selves, when we embrace the "Self of God".

Regards Tony
 
RJM said:
Sure beats spending your day healing the lepers and cripples, and raising the dead and giving sight to the blind ... yup
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It is sad that is all you can find to say.

The Shame is upon those that exiled Him, confined him to prison, cut off from all contact with humanity and the Murdered him by firing squad. The Bab was also able to heal, but we no longer use miracles as proof of the Messengers.

Remember, Jesus was only personally able to do this for up until his execution.

Do you except the miracles of Muhammad as proof?

Regards Tony
 
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