A New Creation

[Thomas]

What surprises and saddens me, among people of all faiths, is the idea of this earth, this life, being utterly disposable, a place to escape from without further delay.

I agree with the Buddhist idea of the transient and ephemeral, I agree with the teaching of Atma and Maya, I agree with all those teachings that suggest this condition is merely temporary ... but then there is this:

Isaiah 65:17 - “See, I will create new heavens and a new earth." (65:17) and "'As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me,’ declares the Lord, ‘so will your name and descendants endure.’” (66:22)

2 Peter 3:13 – “But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.”

Revelation 21:1 – “Then I saw ‘a new heaven and a new earth,’ for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.” (21:1) and "Behold, I am making all things new.” (21:5).

St Paul goes on at length – "Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall all indeed rise again ... and we shall be changed." (1 Corinthians 15:51-52)

And St John: "We know, that, when he shall appear, we shall be like to him: because we shall see him as he is."

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On solid metaphysics, my belief is that should this earth 'pass away' – then the Infinite will be to some infinitesimal degree, lesser than what it was, which it cannot be.

Ergo my belief is that the Mystery of which St Paul speaks is that the world will endure, but it shall be changed – that whereas now the spirit lives according to the material, that state will be reversed, and the correct hierarchy will be the material appears according to the will of the spiritual.

It's not so much that we shall go somewhere else, rather that our eyes will be opened where we are, to speak in Quantum analogy, we will not be as insects caught in the web of some infinite and eternal entanglement, we shall be the Quantum itself, the place from when miracles are by no means impossible.

"AUM is the sound of the radiance of God. This is the most mysterious and important thing to understand, but once you get the idea, it’s very simple.”
"The secret to having a spiritual life as you move in the world is to hear the AUM is all things all the time."
"'OM…OM…OM…’ OM is the sound nature makes when it’s pleased with itself.”
(from Joseph Campbell, Reflections on the Art of Living)

"All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of thing shall be well"
(Julian of Norwich, Revelations of Divine Love, 13th Revelation, Chapter 27)

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[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

What surprises and saddens me, among people of all faiths, is the idea of this earth, this life, being utterly disposable, a place to escape from without further delay.

This world is a matrix to which we will all be born from. It has a purpose to which we are to find and submit to.

The greatest prayer in our hearts is that 'May God's Will be done on earth as it is in heaven'.

The escape is from ungodliness and even the Prophets asked for that escape, as did Jesus.

Luke 22:42 "Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done"

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Isaiah 65:17 - “See, I will create new heavens and a new earth." (65:17) and "'As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me,’ declares the Lord, ‘so will your name and descendants endure.’” (66:22)

2 Peter 3:13 – “But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.”

Revelation 21:1 – “Then I saw ‘a new heaven and a new earth,’ for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.” (21:1) and "Behold, I am making all things new.” (21:5).

St Paul goes on at length – "Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall all indeed rise again ... and we shall be changed." (1 Corinthians 15:51-52)

I see that is the New Heaven and Earth are the New Messengers and Messages they have brought forth from God, the cycle always renwews in about every 1000 years, a "Day of God".

We all face a judgement day, the day we live in will have a valid Messenger, it depends when we were born, at the dawn of the new day, or in the winter of its decline.

Regards Tony

 

[wil]

You quote the Christian Bible repeatedly as if what is written is fact that we should act on?

I can understand that for Christians that believe such...but just because someone wrote something we like or appreciate does not make it true, nor worthy of us getting excited about or anticipatory of imo.

There is much written in science fiction about future existence I think I would personally get excited about hoping to be true...but I don't have faith any of that is real ejther.

 

[Thomas]

I see that is the New Heaven and Earth are the New Messengers and Messages they have brought forth from God, the cycle always renwews in about every 1000 years, a "Day of God".

Does the Baha'i teaching in any way encompass the Pauline message of substantial change, rather than moral and ethical?

 

[Ahanu]

It's not so much that we shall go somewhere else, rather that our eyes will be opened where we are, to speak in Quantum analogy, we will not be as insects caught in the web of some infinite and eternal entanglement, we shall be the Quantum itself, the place from when miracles are by no means impossible.

I have seen this movie before.

 

[Ahanu]

Ergo my belief is that the Mystery of which St Paul speaks is that the world will endure, but it shall be changed – that whereas now the spirit lives according to the material, that state will be reversed, and the correct hierarchy will be the material appears according to the will of the spiritual.

It's not so much that we shall go somewhere else, rather that our eyes will be opened where we are, to speak in Quantum analogy, we will not be as insects caught in the web of some infinite and eternal entanglement, we shall be the Quantum itself, the place from when miracles are by no means impossible.

My belief is the world is constantly changing, transforming, and conforming itself evermore to the will of the spirit. Today diseases that used to be incurable in Jesus' day are now curable. Ancient people saw such healings as the hand of God. There's just less and less need for miracle workers.

I love this story:

Base editing: Revolutionary therapy clears girl's incurable cancer

But, then again, we need to redefine miracle worker. There is a whole team of miracle workers at Great Ormond Street.

 

[RJM]

Luke 22:42 "Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done"

Not clear what you mean by using this quote here, out-of-context as usual.

Muslims often use this phrase to try to show that Jesus was forced into suffering unwillingly -- and even that he did not die on the cross.

It's not true. Christ knew what was going to happen to him -- he knew why he came to mankind, and he foretold his own death and resurrection on several occasions.

Jesus felt fear and pain -- and doubt -- as we do. Otherwise we could not take courage from his suffering. But He knew why he came into the world, and he went through with it, in spite of his fear. That is true courage.

He took the cup, obedient to the will of the Father. It's the purpose of the passage

IMO

 

[Thomas]

I have seen this movie before.

That's the issue with analogy – it never quite fits the bill.

 

[Thomas]

Today diseases that used to be incurable in Jesus' day are now curable. Ancient people saw such healings as the hand of God. There's just less and less need for miracle workers.

The incurable of yesterday is not curable today by miraculous means, so there is a distinction.

The interplay between God and the world – whether for good or for ill – was all part of their world view, in the same way many today might express the opinion that surviving illness, accident or catastrophe, etc., as God's will.

The authors of Scripture, for example, clearly saw a distinction between the mundane and the miraculous – so Im not sure that the idea of progress is sufficient in itself to explain miracles away.

Arguably the contemporary empirical/analytical mindset, whilst dazzles itself with its explanations, might actually hinder a more profound or meaningful understanding of 'the way of the world' – in some ways the Ancient mind is more amenable to a Quantum view of things than we are.

But, then again, we need to redefine miracle worker. There is a whole team of miracle workers at Great Ormond Street.

OK, but that GOSH comment is hyperbole that can't really be a basis for definition.

 

[Thomas]

Generally I'd say the Baha'i has their view, the Abrahamics have their view (which differs), the Hindu has their view (which differs again), and so on – I can accommodate the different views, what I can't make sense of is the bending of other's views to fit my own paradigm.

 

[Thomas]

I have seen this movie before.

Well, The Matrix is a mish-mash of Christian, 'Gnostic' and Buddhist ideology ...

 

[wil]

Well life is..

Well, The Matrix is a mish-mash of Christian, 'Gnostic' and Buddhist ideology ...

This version of a "New Earth" is about overcoming ego... https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/76334

 

[Thomas]

Fair enough, but you're right in putting 'new earth' in inverted commas – nothing's essentially changed, just a shift in viewpoint.

Again, to be fair to you, I was addressing believers who regard this world as simply a staging post.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Does the Baha'i teaching in any way encompass the Pauline message of substantial change, rather than moral and ethical?

You may have to explain that concept to me Thomas. I personally see that every Messenger brings substantial change which is a direct result of the Message, the Word they bring. At the same time they renew the moral and ethical teachings.

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away… – Revelation, 21:1

A New Heaven and Earth came with Jesus Christ, the old way of things vanished into the path, civilizations were built upon the Word of God that were given to is by Jesus Christ. The same New Heaven and Earth came with Muhammad, empires built, nations conquered, the beast of Revelation arose. We do not necessarily see the change happening, if we do not except a God given Messenger, it is difficult to understand why the old way of things is being questioned.

I will offer the change can be seen in the Word that God has given. The past 170 years has seen massive change and yet more is to come. I can offer there is much written about this change Thomas.

"In this mortal world every important matter hath an end; and every remarkable achievement a termination; none having permanent existence. For instance, consider how the important achievements of the ancient world have been totally exterminated and not a trace remaineth therefrom save the great Cause of the Kingdom of God, which hath no beginning and will have no end. At most, it is only renewed. – Abdu’l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu’l-Baha, p. 310.

What we can consider is that Prophecy does not just happen overnight, it is a picture of an eternal past and future, the promisses given in the Bible and all holy books unfold with each Messenger and over centuries and millenniums.

"...[Baha’u’llah’s] mission is to proclaim that the ages of the infancy and of the childhood of the human race are past, that the convulsions associated with the present stage of its adolescence are slowly and painfully preparing it to attain the stage of manhood, and are heralding the approach of that Age of Ages when swords will be beaten into plowshares, when the Kingdom promised by Jesus Christ will have been established, and the peace of the planet definitely and permanently ensured. – Shoghi Effendi, The Promised Day is Come, p. v.

I am always happy to discuss Thomas.

I hope all is good for you and family friends and community, Regards Tony

 

[wil]

Fair enough, but you're right in putting 'new earth' in inverted commas – nothing's essentially changed, just a shift in viewpoint.

Again, to be fair to you, I was addressing believers who regard this world as simply a staging post.

I sorta wondered why you chose not to put it in christianity....

And I sorta consider this a staging ground...primary school of sorts... we been given a big blue ball, a cehicle/meat suit.and a whole plethora of friends...and I like to think that we are hear to learn to respect and take care of these gifts we have been given. Maybe we will have to return to this earth till we pass the test...quit dissing and bombing each other, quit polluting our planet and extincting species...and maybe someday we will graduate to a new earth.

Much more speculation, contemplation and circumambulation for me than any level of actual belief.

I would not be my soul on any of it...but would be pleased to see you in the next class.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

What surprises and saddens me, among people of all faiths, is the idea of this earth, this life, being utterly disposable, a place to escape from without further delay.

Not clear what you mean by using this quote here, out-of-context as usual.

Muslims often use this phrase to try to show that Jesus was forced into suffering unwillingly -- and even that he did not die on the cross.

It's not true. Christ knew what was going to happen to him -- he knew why he came to mankind, and he foretold his own death and resurrection on several occasions.

Jesus felt fear and pain -- and doubt -- as we do. Otherwise we could not take courage from his suffering. But He knew why he came into the world, and he went through with it, in spite of his fear. That is true courage.

He took the cup, obedient to the will of the Father. It's the purpose of the passage

IMO

I used it in response to what Thomas said.

Yes Jesus, and all the Messengers knew their fate, they all had a period of retreat before they delivered the God given Message. They also knew this world is the illusion, a semblance of the true reality.

The purpose of our life is for us to try to emulate the teachings and guidance of the Messengers, for us to embrace life and all it offers with joy and radiance, in submission to God's Will.

All that in the knowledge that this matrix is but a blink in time, a place to grow spiritual capacity.

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

Yes Jesus, and all the Messengers knew their fate, they all had a period of retreat before they delivered the God given Message. They also knew this world is the illusion, a semblance of the true reality.

Jesus spoke those words while sweating blood in the garden of Getsemane a very short time before he was taken and tortured to death. As he had foretold, and as he knew was going to happen.

He had been teaching and preaching in the temple and all around for years before that nightmare night.

Do you understand the context of the scriptures from which you try to quote? Or do you now have to return to your Baha'i reference library to have to try to catch up what your instructors tell you to say?

Why did you post this passage? What was your intention?

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Does the Baha'i teaching in any way encompass the Pauline message of substantial change, rather than moral and ethical?

I am thinking that this quote from Abdul'baha shows the extent of change.

THE NEW HEAVEN, THE NEW EARTH
1 O ye beloved of God! O ye children of His Kingdom! Verily, verily the new heaven and the new earth are come. The holy City, new Jerusalem, hath come down from on high in the form of a maid of heaven, veiled, beauteous, and unique, and prepared for reunion with her lovers on earth. The angelic company of the celestial Concourse have joined in a call that hath rung throughout the universe, all loudly and mightily acclaiming: "Hail, O City of God! Abide Thou, and make Thy habitation with the pure, virtuous and holy servants of Thine; for they are Thy people, and Thou art their Lord."
2 He hath wiped away their tears, kindled their light, rejoiced their hearts and enraptured their souls. Death shall no more overtake them, neither shall sorrow, crying and tribulation afflict them. The Lord God Omnipotent hath been enthroned in His Kingdom and hath made all things new. This is the truth, and what truth greater than the Revelation of St. John the divine? He is the Alpha and Omega. He is the One that will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life, and bestow upon the sick the remedy of true salvation. He whom such grace aideth is verily he that receiveth the most glorious heritage from the prophets of God and His holy ones. The Lord will be his God, and he His dearly-beloved son.
3 Rejoice, then, O ye beloved of the Lord and His chosen ones, and ye the children of God and His people, raise your voice and laud and magnify the Lord, the Most High; for His light hath beamed forth, His signs have appeared, and the billows of His rising ocean have scattered on every shore many a precious pearl."

I can only offer that the Change is our own choice, to be born again in the new Heaven and on the New Earrh. It becomes our personal testomoial (A popular teaching habit of born again Christians)

Maybe this is not what the OP wants to discuss? There are many meanings that can be explored in regards to what a "New Heaven and New Earth" may mean.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Jesus spoke those words while sweating blood in the garden of Getsamene a very short time before he was taken and tortured to death. As he had foretold, and as he knew was going to happen.

He had been teaching and preaching in the temple and all around for years before that nightmare night.

Do you understand the context of the scriptures from which you try to quote? Or do you now have to return to your Baha'i reference library to have to try to catch up?

Why did you post this passage? What was your intention?

My intention? Was to offer a personal reply to an OP.

You quote Jesus suffering and foreknowledge. What do you know of other Messengers suffering and foreknowledge?

It is all applicable to a New Heaven and a New Earth.

In one sense the New Heaven can be seen as the new Message and the new earth as the new law and all the Messengers have suffered bringing the New Heaven and New Earth.

Regards Tony