Sapere aude

[Naturalist]

Hello Fellow Homo sapiens:

Homo sapiens means wise humans. Let's work at it!

I come from a Jewish background, and as a pre-teen could not understand how adults could believe in the Old Testament. It was obviously mythology.

These childhood observations led me to become interested in a number of related areas, like other religions, psychology, physics, etc. I wanted to know what the evidence showed, and why people willfully ignored the evidence.

While pursuing my professional career in the nuclear power industry, I didn't have much time to pursue these interests, but now that I'm retired, I'm good to go.

When communicating on the Internet, I unfortunately find that in discussing these issues, many religious people feel they are being "attacked". Criticism is not "attacking". I welcome criticism, and "attacks". Tell me why you think I'm wrong, and if your evidence or logic is sound, I will have learned something.

Thank you in advance.

 

[RJM]

Right ...

Thank you and WELCOME to the IO community

 

[Thomas]

Hello Fellow Homo sapiens:

Homo sapiens means wise humans. Let's work at it!

From reading your posts ... please do.

 

[Naturalist]

From reading your posts ... please do.

Yes, it takes mental discipline to remain rational. It's very easy to succumb to irrationality.

 

[Faithfulservant]

Welcome!

 

[Thomas]

Yes, it takes mental discipline to remain rational. It's very easy to succumb to irrationality.

Something I learned doing my degree BA (Hons) Divinity.

The assumption that a religious belief is irrational is, itself, irrational – unless you can disprove God?

 

[Naturalist]

Something I learned doing my degree BA (Hons) Divinity.

The assumption that a religious belief is irrational is, itself, irrational – unless you can disprove God?

The person making the existence claim (a claim that something exists outside of what is normally encountered in life) has the burden of proof.

To be rational is to ratio your belief relative to the strength of evidence. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

There is no evidence of god, therefore it's irrational to believe in it.

 

[wil]

Something I learned doing my degree BA (Hons) Divinity.

The assumption that a religious belief is irrational is, itself, irrational – unless you can disprove God?

I think they state quite clearly the irrational they see is belief in OT mythology, allegory, and moral parables as literal, scientific, historic fact.

Me thinks many believers in G!d have that same issue...

 

[RJM]

21st Century (standard model) physics ends at mathematical singularity of time and space with equations that encompass 4% of the observable universe -- to say nothing of what lies beyond, imo

 

[Naturalist]

21st Century physics ends at mathematical singularity of time and space with equations that encompass 4% of the observable universe -- to say nothing of what lies beyond, imo

You are correct, but look at what got us to that understanding!

We know of singularities, black holes, nebula, etc., by employing the scientific method. We seized on this wealth of knowledge and manufactured submarines, satellites, spacecraft, MRI machines, AI, etc.

This all occurred over the last 350 years or so (Scientific Revolution).

Pretty good for some Great Apes!

 

[RJM]

Pretty good for some Great Apes!

Pretty good for some little fleas announcing they know the dog they're on

The earth itself is a living entity imo

Logging off now

 

[muhammad_isa]

Hello Fellow Homo sapiens:

Greetings

I come from a Jewish background, and as a pre-teen could not understand how adults could believe in the Old Testament..

Mmm .. I see .. OK.

These childhood observations led me to become interested in a number of related areas, like other religions, psychology, physics, etc. I wanted to know what the evidence showed, and why people willfully ignored the evidence..

It's good to have an enquiring mind.

..many religious people feel they are being "attacked".

I don't .. unless I am.

 

[MikeS]

Yes, it takes mental discipline to remain rational. It's very easy to succumb to irrationality.

I suppose it comes down to whether you NEED life to be entirely rational, or whether you can accept that life isn't always going to meet your requirements for rationality. Human beings aren't entirely rational. Now you may feel that is an issue. But it's also, largely speaking, a factual observation.

I feel, as long as the irrationalities don't pose a threat to the existence and welfare of others, it's something I don't feel is a cause of concern. But that's just me, and I appreciate that a great many people feel they need more evidenced confirmation of things.

 

[RJM]

Of course intuition and the still small voice cannot be dismissed as irrational and valueless

'God' isn't found in human arrogance and frantic materialist activity. Spirit reveals its ways to the one who submits in quietness and humility, imo

I go with @Faithfulservant:
The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. -Galatians 5:22-25

'God' doesn't perform to suit human curiosity.

But whereunto shall I liken this generation?
It is like to children sitting in the markets, and calling to their fellows,
And saying, We have piped to you, and ye have not danced;
we have mourned to you, and ye have not lamented.
Matt 11:16-17


Just my own thoughts (and experience)

 

[MikeS]

Of course intuition and the still small voice cannot be dismissed as irrational and valueless

'God' isn't found in arrogance and frantic materialist activity. Spirit reveals its ways to the one who submits in quietness and humility, imo

I go with @Faithfulservant:

The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. -Galatians 5:22-25

'God' doesn't perform to suit human curiosity.

But whereunto shall I liken this generation?
It is like to children sitting in the markets, and calling to their fellows,
And saying, We have piped to you, and ye have not danced;
we have mourned to you, and ye have not lamented.
(Matt 11:16-17)
Read full chapter

Just my own thoughts (and experience)

I find it interesting that irrational and valueless are connected in your opening sentence. I wonder if irrationality is valueless? We suggest that people have an 'irrational' fear of heights/spiders/whatever, when what we might be observing is a particularly elevated survival instinct.

With regard to belief in the numinous, that tends to arise in a search for meaning and understanding, and while it is not unreasonable to consider a scientific approach to meaning and understanding, that approach doesn't always produce results.....there's lots in scientific study where the outcome is 'we just don't know'. For some, the numinous is an unsatisfactory answer to 'we just don't know', which is fair enough. To others, it is, which is also fair enough.

 

[RJM]

With regard to belief in the numinous, that tends to arise in a search for meaning and understanding

I think it may happen more often from the surrender to divine intervention when my own human wisdom reaches its end, when I am desperate and through my tears eventually have to say: "Please take over because I can't do this alone."

'God' meets me where I am, imo.

But first I have to ask, because God's angels do not interfere with my human free will without my invitation

Just my own thoughts

 

[Naturalist]

I suppose it comes down to whether you NEED life to be entirely rational, or whether you can accept that life isn't always going to meet your requirements for rationality. Human beings aren't entirely rational. Now you may feel that is an issue. But it's also, largely speaking, a factual observation.

I feel, as long as the irrationalities don't pose a threat to the existence and welfare of others, it's something I don't feel is a cause of concern. But that's just me, and I appreciate that a great many people feel they need more evidenced confirmation of things.

I agree, humans are not entirely rational, but they can improve if they try. Irrationality plays out in many ways, and with 8 billion people on the planet, I'm concerned. Take voting...people's irrationality can affect you, even if you don't know them. Child care...innocent kids are harmed by irrational parents. Many more examples.

 

[Naturalist]

I find it interesting that irrational and valueless are connected in your opening sentence. I wonder if irrationality is valueless? We suggest that people have an 'irrational' fear of heights/spiders/whatever, when what we might be observing is a particularly elevated survival instinct.

With regard to belief in the numinous, that tends to arise in a search for meaning and understanding, and while it is not unreasonable to consider a scientific approach to meaning and understanding, that approach doesn't always produce results.....there's lots in scientific study where the outcome is 'we just don't know'. For some, the numinous is an unsatisfactory answer to 'we just don't know', which is fair enough. To others, it is, which is also fair enough.

I'm fine with "we just don't know", but that is often used to inject the god-of-the-gaps fallacy, which is irrational.

 

[Naturalist]

I think it may happen more often from the surrender to divine intervention when my own human wisdom reaches its end, when I am desperate and through my tears eventually have to say: "Please take over because I can't do this alone."

'God' meets me where I am, imo.

But first I have to ask, because God's angels do not interfere with my human free will without my invitation

Just my own thoughts

Human free will is just an emotion, that you feel. It doesn't actually exist.

 

[RJM]

Human free will is just an emotion, that you feel. It doesn't actually exist.

I have the choice whether or not to respond to your post. Of course human free will exists. I make choices all the time