Sapere aude

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

I don't find anything special about these so-called 'messengers' either . . . if there was a real god and as almighty as portrayed in scriptures, then every single individual would know without a shadow of doubt of this god's existence. This god can create the Universe but this same god cannot make itself undeniably known to everyone?

We have been told that God could with one word make everyone a believer and instill into them all knowledge of past and future, yet that is not the purpose of this creation. It is logical, when we view the perfection of creation, that our creator does have a purpose for humanity, which requires us to search that out.

What that is all about is Faith 101 and why God sends the Messengers.

Regards Tony

 

[talib-al-kalim]

We have been told that God could with one word make everyone a believer and instill into them all knowledge of past and future, yet that is not the purpose of this creation. It is logical, when we view the perfection of creation, that our creator does have a purpose for humanity, which requires us to search that out.

What that is all about is Faith 101 and why God sends the Messengers.

Regards Tony

I think that there are limitations even to God because we are limited. I observed that no revelation went beyond the possibility to direct the thought of a prophet. They said what they didn't know, but they never said what they could not have thought of.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The Left Hand Path is a philosophy not a theistic faith

Hindu left-hand path is strongly theistic faith.

Kali, Bhairava

 

[Aupmanyav]

They said what they didn't know, but they never said what they could not have thought of.

That is a wrong thing to do. They should not have done that.
That means that they could have said what they thought and not what Allah wanted them to say.

 

[Aupmanyav]

We have been told that God could with one word make everyone a believer and instill into them all knowledge of past and future, yet that is not the purpose of this creation. It is logical, when we view the perfection of creation, that our creator does have a purpose for humanity, which requires us to search that out.

What that is all about is Faith 101 and why God sends the Messengers.

You do not have evidence for any God, nor that it selected the persons whom you term as 'Messengers of God', 'Manifestations', 'Mahdis'.
Purpose, you have searched and have still not found it.
Just faith does not suffice for all people.

 

[Thomas]

For the sake of balance ...

I find nothing rational or logical about theistic faith.

This statement is demonstrably both unreasonable and irrational.

That God exists, can only be known and reasoned through the Messengers.

Actually this is not quite right.

The existence of God can be known through reason and observation. In Traditional Christianity, there are two books that speak of God, the first is the Book of Nature, and the second the Book of Revelation.

St Thomas Aquinas, for example, demonstrated the Five Ways as proofs of God – although it should be noted he was not arguing for the God of Holy Scripture, the God of Revelation, but rather for the existence of God evidenced by observation, reason and logic.

That the Five Ways are still discussed in the universities speaks for itself.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Actually this is not quite right.

The existence of God can be known through reason and observation..

I agree with that.
..but as to the nature of G-d and His guidance, we need revelation i.e. His messengers

 

[talib-al-kalim]

That is a wrong thing to do. They should not have done that.
That means that they could have said what they thought and not what Allah wanted them to say.

I'm not in them. I don't know what the prophets experienced or how they experienced it. All I can see is that it makes sense, for those they spoke to, and often to me and our present society

 

['Amir Alzzalam]

I think so, but please, do we need be so combative?


Then yes, I am using the word in terms of its primary definition, faith in principle is 'a complete trust or confidence in someone/something.'

You are using a particular example of such – it can mean a strong belief in God, the doctrines of a religion.
It can equally mean a strong belief in, say, Buddhism, and non-theistic doctrines.
And it can equally mean a strong belief in a philosophy, and its doctrines.

(Aside: Your words "based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof" could well be another discussion entirely. Do we apprehend, and seek proof? Surely we don't seek proof for what we do not apprehend? And is it not that what we do apprehend, without the need for proof as such – day follows night, gravity works downwards, etc. – leads us to inquire into deeper, less obvious reasons and meanings, for which we do require proof ... which came first inquiry?)

If I combine both our approaches, I suppose I'm asking do you not have a belief in the LHP, its principles, doctrines and methods of determination?


Well people have faith in all manner of things: Gods, philosophy, science, humanity, politics and yes, not all of them are necessarily reasonable, rational or logical – people are weird and wonderful creatures!

It seems to me that neither the RHP nor the LHP can 'prove' itself to the satisfaction of a skeptic. It's ultimate claims rest on faith, not proof, although it can be argued.


Well that's a matter of opinion, it hardly weighs upon the central question.


You've used the term 'God' although you reject theism. If I may quote from your post 88:


Surely if comprehending a 'God' then the LHP is a theism?


In philosophical terms, this seems equivalent to autotheism, egotheism or autolatry – the deification of the self?

Is this not akin to the relation of atman to Brahman in Hinduism?

It is close to the Jain idea of the Tirthankara – a (self-)saviour by the extinction of all prior karma and transcending samsara – the endless cycles of birth and death?

wiki: "According to Jains, tirthankaras ... have conquered the saṃsāra, the cycle of death and rebirth, on their own... After understanding the true nature of the self or soul, the Tīrthaṅkara attains kevala jnana (omniscience)."

When I use the word 'faith' I mean it in the way that I have faith the sun will rise tomorrow morning, as it has for a long time, I also have faith that the tenets of the Western Left Hand Path work as they are demonstrable and consistent.

The LHP is a philosophy that doesn't require objective proof.

When broken down into its core foundation. The Western Left Hand Path is an antinomian process of externalizing your True Self. The way it works is that we have this ability to experience our True Self, our Full Potential Being, this can be referred to as our GodSelf. It is the perfected you and is your Psyche/Soul/Greater Self. What is referred to as Apotheosis on the Western Left Hand Path does not entail 'becoming' a god per se, it entails realizing one's Greater Self, and bringing this Self into your everyday life in order to become more than Human.

We don't have Divine texts, Messianic heroes, dogma, or an exclusive claim to truth, we are not outdated, harmful to the individual, harmful to society, an impediment to the progress of science or humanity, a source of immoral acts, or customs, or a political tool for social control.

 

['Amir Alzzalam]

We have been told that God could with one word make everyone a believer and instill into them all knowledge of past and future, yet that is not the purpose of this creation. It is logical, when we view the perfection of creation, that our creator does have a purpose for humanity, which requires us to search that out.

What that is all about is Faith 101 and why God sends the Messengers.

Regards Tony

What has your 'god' created exactly?

 

['Amir Alzzalam]

Hindu left-hand path is strongly theistic faith.

View attachment 4189 View attachment 4190 Kali, Bhairava

For argument's sake, I use the term Left Hand Path, but what I am really referring to is the Western Left Hand Path . . . just to be clear.

 

[talib-al-kalim]

That is just a chosen frame of reference.

God's proof is the Messengers. That God exists, can only be known and reasoned through the Messengers. They are the mouth of God, they are the example God gives us.

So if we partake of a just, logical and reasoned search of their Person, their lives and the Claim that is given in the Book, we can get to Know about God.

Regards Tony

Actually this is not quite right.

The existence of God can be known through reason and observation. In Traditional Christianity, there are two books that speak of God, the first is the Book of Nature, and the second the Book of Revelation.

St Thomas Aquinas, for example, demonstrated the Five Ways as proofs of God – although it should be noted he was not arguing for the God of Holy Scripture, the God of Revelation, but rather for the existence of God evidenced by observation, reason and logic.

That the Five Ways are still discussed in the universities speaks for itself.

There is no actual "proof" for God. God cannot be proven in our reasoning, as (still in our reasoning), God exceeds our reasoning. The proofs of the existence of God of Thomas Aquinas all start from assumptions, which would need a proof as well. The proofs that God doesn't exist fail for the same reason.
Tony is right in that we follow the prophets, and our faith in God is based on the prophets (and our differences are about whom we accept as a prophet).
What we may confirm is that what we know from the prophets and our belief in God and our prayers to God make sense in our lives.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Actually this is not quite right.

Yes and no and I would have to explain the details of my current frame of reference Thomas. I do acknowledge what you are offering, but offer a return observation. If using the Five Ways with logic and reason is a sure way to find God, if all the Messengers are from God, as offered by Baha'u'llah, then if we have not embraced them one and all, then we still have not found a large part of the knowledge of God that has been made available to us. Then acceptance of the Messengers is only the start, as they are the light of God to humanity and the door to the knowledgeof God.

My frame of reference is that the Word is the cause of creation, it is the Holy Spirit that the Messengers eminent from. The Messengers one and all being the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End, the Alpha and Omega. I see all the Names and Attributes of the Messengers are pre-existing, and I see these Names and Attributes that permeate all creation, are emanating in all the worlds of God.

Thus logically, Every thought or concept that we can come up with, comes in one way or another, from that Spirit, coming to our rational mind by the Word.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

There is no actual "proof" for God. God cannot be proven in our reasoning, as (still in our reasoning), God exceeds our reasoning. The proofs of the existence of God of Thomas Aquinas all start from assumptions, which would need a proof as well. The proofs that God doesn't exist fail for the same reason.
Tony is right in that we follow the prophets, and our faith in God is based on the prophets (and our differences are about whom we accept as a prophet).
What we may confirm is that what we know from the prophets and our belief in God and our prayers to God make sense in our lives.

My frame.of reference, and from what Baha'u'llah offered, the proof of God is the Messengers.

Their person, their life and the Word is the proof. It is all relevant to our chosen frames of references.

The issue we face is, that it is a rare few that see God through the Messengers, the pure source, so I see our conception of God could be mostly erroneous, if it is not based on the source.

All of creation can show us there is a God, in one way or another, but once in about every 1000 years, God gives us the Source of the light that walks amongst us. A rare few pure souls see the light of God in the years they walk the earth.

What do we do? We have persecuted them, defiled them and even put them to death, never to date has humanity as a whole embraced that light.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

What has your 'god' created exactly?

God knitted the letters B & E together and here we are having a chat.

Regards Tony

 

['Amir Alzzalam]

God knitted the letters B & E together and here we are having a chat.

Regards Tony

. . . and your proof is . . . ?

 

[Aupmanyav]

St Thomas Aquinas, for example, demonstrated the Five Ways as proofs of God – although it should be noted he was not arguing for the God of Holy Scripture, the God of Revelation, but rather for the existence of God evidenced by observation, reason and logic.

That the Five Ways are still discussed in the universities speaks for itself.

Would you like to mention and discuss St. Thomas Aquinas 'Five Ways' here?

 

[Aupmanyav]

I'm not in them. I don't know what the prophets experienced or how they experienced it. All I can see is that it makes sense, for those they spoke to, and often to me and our present society.

[2:7] Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing and there is a covering over their eyes, and there is a great punishment for them.
[2:10] There is a disease in their hearts, so Allah added to their disease and they shall have a painful chastisement because they lied.
[2:39] And (as to) those who disbelieve in and reject My communications, they are the inmates of the fire, in it they shall abide
[2:88] And they say: Our hearts are covered. Nay, Allah has cursed them on account of their unbelief; so little it is that they believe.
[2:161] Surely those who disbelieve and die while they are disbelievers, these it is on whom is the curse of Allah and the angels and men all;
[2:162] Abiding in it; their chastisement shall not be lightened nor shall they be given respite.
[2:170] And when it is said to them, Follow what Allah has revealed, they say: Nay! We follow what we found our fathers upon. What! And though their fathers had no sense at all, nor did they follow the right way.
(Allah or Muhammad? Misappropriation)

Read the whole at https://www.al-islam.org/alphabetical-index-holy-quran/disbelievers

 

[Aupmanyav]

For argument's sake, I use the term Left Hand Path, but what I am really referring to is the Western Left Hand Path . . . just to be clear.

Thanks, I just wanted to clarify.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Their person, their life and the Word is the proof. It is all relevant to our chosen frames of references.

All of creation can show us there is a God, in one way or another, but once in about every 1000 years, God gives us the Source of the light that walks amongst us. A rare few pure souls see the light of God in the years they walk the earth.

We have persecuted them, defiled them and even put them to death, never to date has humanity as a whole embraced that light.

Leaving out personal (which we do not really know), what in their life and word has benefited the humanity?
That is the problem. Even accepting creation, nothing in that shows the existence of any God one way or the other.
1,000 years is quite wrong. Buddha (even if we take him to be a messenger of God, how funny! Buddha a messenger of God!) came about 500 years before Jesus, and Muhammad came 600 years after Jesus. No one can stop God sending a messenger at a time of his choosing. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad came within the life time of Bahaollah.
Then why does God sends them? Does he not know that messengers bring no benefit to humanity, only harm?