I converted to Jehovah's Witnesses

[walter]

Do the JW's here concur? Is this statement a good summary of your beliefs about the afterlife and the resurrections?

I will put together some scriptures so we will get a Biblical viewpoint on these Bible subjects.

 

[walter]

Summary for those who sleep: Genesis 3:19 "until you return to the ground, since you were taken from it. For you are dust, and you will return to dust.” Daniel 12:2 "those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake" Psalms 37:29 "But the righteous shall inherit the earth, and dwell upon it for ever" Psalms 37:11 "But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace." John 12:48 The one who rejects Me and does not accept My teachings has one who judges him: the word which I spoke. That will judge him on the last day. John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Summary for those who shall not sleep, the little flock who goes to Heaven who shares in the first resurrection: Luke 12:32 "Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom" 1 Cor 15:51-53 "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed" Hebrews 3:1 "so, dear brothers and sisters who belong to God and are partners with those called to heaven" Luke 22:28-30 "And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." Rev 20:5-6 "Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over these; they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for [the] thousand years."

 

[walter]

Do the JW's here concur? Is this statement a good summary of your beliefs about the afterlife and the resurrections?

Shouldn't we look for as many scriptures as we can find on a Bible subject, to form a more complete understanding?

 

[RabbiO]

Shouldn't we look for as many scriptures as we can find on a Bible subject, to form a more complete understanding?

Don't you think a better idea would be to provide a succinct summary of JW beliefs and then, if asked, provide the citations to those scriptures that JWs believe provide the basis for those beliefs?

 

[walter]

Don't you think a better idea would be to provide a succinct summary of JW beliefs and then, if asked, provide the citations to those scriptures that JWs believe provide the basis for those beliefs?

Jehovah's Witnesses believe the Father gives a little flock a kingdom, these ones that are given a kingdom will be judging the 12 tribes of Israel, they shall not all sleep those called to heaven, they are raised in the first resurrection, these will be priests of God and Christ and they will reign with him for [the] thousand years.

Luke 12:32 "Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom"
Luke 22:28-30 "And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."
1 Cor 15:51-53 "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed" Hebrews 3:1 "so, dear brothers and sisters who belong to God and are partners with those called to heaven"
Rev 20:5-6 "Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over these; they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for [the] thousand years."

 

[moralorel]

I will put together some scriptures so we will get a Biblical viewpoint on these Bible subjects.

How about you just answer specific questions? First question. The 144,000. Are they truly resurrected spirit individuals or are they physical beings saved on earth from the tribulation?

 

[walter]

How about you just answer specific questions? First question. The 144,000. Are they truly resurrected spirit individuals or are they physical beings saved on earth from the tribulation?

- Inheritance in the heavens: 1 Peter 1:3-4, Hebrews 3:1, Philippians 3:14 
- 144,000 sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel. Revelation 7:4
- 144,000 who have been bought from the earth. Revelation 14:3
- Jesus said to his disciples they will judge the 12 tribes of Israel. Luke 22:28-30
- the one who shares in the first resurrection... they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for [the] thousand years." Rev 20:6

Summary: The Bible talks about two inheritances and two different resurrections - one on Earth and one in Heaven. The Bible talks about 144,000 sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel and also these 144,000 have been bought from the earth, and these ones will do judging and they will be priest of God and of Christ.

Sorry I could not answer your question any better. I don't know but if the 144,000 we're bought from the earth, doesn't that explain that this number comes from the humans that lived on the earth?

 

[walter]

- Inheritance in the heavens: 1 Peter 1:3-4, Hebrews 3:1, Philippians 3:14 
- 144,000 sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel. Revelation 7:4
- 144,000 who have been bought from the earth. Revelation 14:3
- Jesus said to his disciples they will judge the 12 tribes of Israel. Luke 22:28-30
- the one who shares in the first resurrection... they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for [the] thousand years." Rev 20:6

Summary: The Bible talks about two inheritances and two different resurrections - one on Earth and one in Heaven. The Bible talks about 144,000 sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel and also these 144,000 have been bought from the earth, and these ones will do judging and they will be priest of God and of Christ.

Sorry I could not answer your question any better. I don't know but if the 144,000 we're bought from the earth, doesn't that explain that this number comes from the humans that lived on the earth?

It seems like the ones that have a upward call have some things in common: -they have a Heavenly inheritance -they don't sleep in death -they are bought from the Earth -they do judging and are priests of God and Christ -the Bible speaks about a little flock that the father approves and gives them a kingdom -these ones share in the first resurrection. Also Jesus and the 144,000 Are referred to as first fruits Revelation 14:3-5 ---- all these scriptures seem to be relevant to each other, but it would take somebody a lot smarter than me to understand this subject.

 

[Clear]

Moralorel asked: “First question. The 144,000. Are they truly resurrected spirit individuals or are they physical beings saved on earth from the tribulation?”

Walter replied:

“- Inheritance in the heavens: 1 Peter 1:3-4, Hebrews 3:1, Philippians 3:14 
- 144,000 sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel. Revelation 7:4
- 144,000 who have been bought from the earth. Revelation 14:3
- Jesus said to his disciples they will judge the 12 tribes of Israel. Luke 22:28-30
- the one who shares in the first resurrection... they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for [the] thousand years." Rev 20:6

Summary: The Bible talks about two inheritances and two different resurrections - one on Earth and one in Heaven. The Bible talks about 144,000 sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel and also these 144,000 have been bought from the earth, and these ones will do judging and they will be priest of God and of Christ.”



Hi Walter: I don’t follow the logic of how your quotes answer the actual, specific, question Moralorel asked (Perhaps I don’t see the specific answers). Can you clarify just a bit?

You first offered us multiple scriptures without any comments on what they actually mean in the Jehovahs Witness interpretation and usage.

You offered 1Peter 1:3-4. However I don’t understand what these verses written to the diaspora and the "Hope for an inheritance” mean to the Jehovahs Witnesses. The quote (seemingly...) doesn’t tells us ANYTHING specific about resurrection as it relates to these 144,000. Is there a logical step that you have not described here?

You offered Hebrews 3:1 – But this verse simply describes a those who share in “the call of the high heaven” and tells them to “think on Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our profession.”

Again, this doesn’t tell us anything specific about the resurrection of the how this text to “holy brethren, who share in a high calling…” tells us whether the 144,000 Moralorel asked about are resurrected or not. Again I feel like there is a logical connection in your mind that is missing in the text to me (or in my current understanding of this specific text…). Can you clarify?

You also offered Phillipians 3:14 When Paul says he pressed toward “the prize of the high calling of God…”.
Again, It feels (to me) like there is some connection in your mind to Moralorel question that is missing in the quote given.
Is there some logical connection between this specific verse and the actual question Moralorel asked inside Jehovahs Witness interpretation?
Are you trying to support some other principle that has a connection in your religion to whether these individuals of the 144,000 are resurrected beings or not.

You offered Revelation 7:4 that tells us “the number of the sealed” was 144,000 from each tribe.
Yet again, it is ok to offer us what we already are aware of but this verse doesn’t tell us regarding if the sealed of Israel are among the resurrected or not.
Can you clarify what you think this quote tells us about that specific question in the Jehovahs Witness interpretation?

You also offered Revelations 14:3, but, again, we are told the 144,000 purchased from the earth are "able to learn the heavenly song."
The verse re-iterates what the number then doesn’t tell us if these individuals were among the resurrected or not.

Is there any way you can clarify how these verses answer the question asked?
Or, if one must view these verses to mean something to the Jehovahs Witnesses Interpretation of these verses, can you perhaps describe the logic?

You shared Rev 20:6 with us as well. Here we learn that those of the first resurrection will be “priests” and “reign” with God but this doesn't tell us whether these are resurrected beings or not.

Are you trying to use these verses as a basis to conclude the 144,000 from each tribe are resurrected beings from the first resurrection who are priests and reign?



Thank you Walter for trying to offer specific information regarding your beliefs. This is not an easy thing to do to offer beliefs for public inspection and I honor the courage to simply state firm and specific beliefs nowadays. Thanks again, for being willing to answer specific questions Walter.

 

[moralorel]

- Inheritance in the heavens: 1 Peter 1:3-4, Hebrews 3:1, Philippians 3:14 
- 144,000 sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel. Revelation 7:4
- 144,000 who have been bought from the earth. Revelation 14:3
- Jesus said to his disciples they will judge the 12 tribes of Israel. Luke 22:28-30
- the one who shares in the first resurrection... they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for [the] thousand years." Rev 20:6

Summary: The Bible talks about two inheritances and two different resurrections - one on Earth and one in Heaven. The Bible talks about 144,000 sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel and also these 144,000 have been bought from the earth, and these ones will do judging and they will be priest of God and of Christ.

Sorry I could not answer your question any better. I don't know but if the 144,000 we're bought from the earth, doesn't that explain that this number comes from the humans that lived on the earth?

The 144,000 are 12,000 people from each tribe (the tribe of Daniel is excluded and instead 24,000 come from Joseph's sons). They survive the tribulation. They are mentioned in Revelation chapters 7 and 14. Unlike most of the people on earth, they don't receive the mark of the beast on their head and hand. They have the mark of God on their forehead. This is probably related to the mark alluded to in Exodus 13:9 and 13:16.

I have assumed that the first resurrection would be at the last trumpet (1 Cor 15:52) which would coincide with "Shemini Atzere". That is my assumption. This would be a spiritual resurrection seeing as the Bible says that death has no power over these people (Revelation 20:4-6)

The 2nd resurrection would be everyone else who ever lived and it would be a physical resurrection. A 2nd death is mentioned in Rev 20:4-6 so these people are susceptible to death. Or at least that is what I see.

I posted a thorough explanation of what I observed in the Bible about this matter. But I don't recall where I posted it.

 

[walter]

The 144,000 are 12,000 people from each tribe (the tribe of Daniel is excluded and instead 24,000 come from Joseph's sons). They survive the tribulation. They are mentioned in Revelation chapters 7 and 14. Unlike most of the people on earth, they don't receive the mark of the beast on their head and hand. They have the mark of God on their forehead. This is probably related to the mark alluded to in Exodus 13:9 and 13:16.

I have assumed that the first resurrection would be at the last trumpet (1 Cor 15:52) which would coincide with "Shemini Atzere". That is my assumption. This would be a spiritual resurrection seeing as the Bible says that death has no power over these people (Revelation 20:4-6)

The 2nd resurrection would be everyone else who ever lived and it would be a physical resurrection. A 2nd death is mentioned in Rev 20:4-6 so these people are susceptible to death. Or at least that is what I see.

I posted a thorough explanation of what I observed in the Bible about this matter. But I don't recall where I posted it.

I think some of your words make a lot of sense.. Of course the first resurrection would be a spiritual one because they are going to go to heaven where Spirit Sons of God live. "Angels"

And the second Resurrection would be a physical one because they are going to live forever on a restored New Earth.

 

[walter]

Moralorel asked: “First question. The 144,000. Are they truly resurrected spirit individuals or are they physical beings saved on earth from the tribulation?”

Walter replied:

“- Inheritance in the heavens: 1 Peter 1:3-4, Hebrews 3:1, Philippians 3:14 
- 144,000 sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel. Revelation 7:4
- 144,000 who have been bought from the earth. Revelation 14:3
- Jesus said to his disciples they will judge the 12 tribes of Israel. Luke 22:28-30
- the one who shares in the first resurrection... they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for [the] thousand years." Rev 20:6

Summary: The Bible talks about two inheritances and two different resurrections - one on Earth and one in Heaven. The Bible talks about 144,000 sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel and also these 144,000 have been bought from the earth, and these ones will do judging and they will be priest of God and of Christ.”



Hi Walter: I don’t follow the logic of how your quotes answer the actual, specific, question Moralorel asked (Perhaps I don’t see the specific answers). Can you clarify just a bit?

You first offered us multiple scriptures without any comments on what they actually mean in the Jehovahs Witness interpretation and usage.

You offered 1Peter 1:3-4. However I don’t understand what these verses written to the diaspora and the "Hope for an inheritance” mean to the Jehovahs Witnesses. The quote (seemingly...) doesn’t tells us ANYTHING specific about resurrection as it relates to these 144,000. Is there a logical step that you have not described here?

You offered Hebrews 3:1 – But this verse simply describes a those who share in “the call of the high heaven” and tells them to “think on Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our profession.”

Again, this doesn’t tell us anything specific about the resurrection of the how this text to “holy brethren, who share in a high calling…” tells us whether the 144,000 Moralorel asked about are resurrected or not. Again I feel like there is a logical connection in your mind that is missing in the text to me (or in my current understanding of this specific text…). Can you clarify?

You also offered Phillipians 3:14 When Paul says he pressed toward “the prize of the high calling of God…”.
Again, It feels (to me) like there is some connection in your mind to Moralorel question that is missing in the quote given.
Is there some logical connection between this specific verse and the actual question Moralorel asked inside Jehovahs Witness interpretation?
Are you trying to support some other principle that has a connection in your religion to whether these individuals of the 144,000 are resurrected beings or not.

You offered Revelation 7:4 that tells us “the number of the sealed” was 144,000 from each tribe.
Yet again, it is ok to offer us what we already are aware of but this verse doesn’t tell us regarding if the sealed of Israel are among the resurrected or not.
Can you clarify what you think this quote tells us about that specific question in the Jehovahs Witness interpretation?

You also offered Revelations 14:3, but, again, we are told the 144,000 purchased from the earth are "able to learn the heavenly song."
The verse re-iterates what the number then doesn’t tell us if these individuals were among the resurrected or not.

Is there any way you can clarify how these verses answer the question asked?
Or, if one must view these verses to mean something to the Jehovahs Witnesses Interpretation of these verses, can you perhaps describe the logic?

You shared Rev 20:6 with us as well. Here we learn that those of the first resurrection will be “priests” and “reign” with God but this doesn't tell us whether these are resurrected beings or not.

Are you trying to use these verses as a basis to conclude the 144,000 from each tribe are resurrected beings from the first resurrection who are priests and reign?



Thank you Walter for trying to offer specific information regarding your beliefs. This is not an easy thing to do to offer beliefs for public inspection and I honor the courage to simply state firm and specific beliefs nowadays. Thanks again, for being willing to answer specific questions Walter.

All I know is the scriptures that I can find on the subject, I cannot answer his question because I cannot find scriptures that specifically answer his question.


Inheritance in the heavens: 1 Peter 1:3-4, Hebrews 3:1, Philippians 3:14 

And an inheritance on Earth Matthew 5:5, Psalm 37:11, Revelation 21:3, 2 Peter 3:13, Making all things new Revelation 21:5

 

[Clear]

Moralorel asked: “First question. The 144,000. Are they truly resurrected spirit individuals or are they physical beings saved on earth from the tribulation?”

Clear noted: “Hi Walter: I don’t follow the logic of how your quotes answer the actual, specific, question Moralorel asked (Perhaps I don’t see the specific answers). Can you clarify just a bit?

You first offered us multiple scriptures without any comments on what they actually mean in the Jehovahs Witness interpretation and usage.”

Walter noted: “...I cannot answer his question because I cannot find scriptures that specifically answer his question.”



Walter, I think it is reasonable not to have all of the answers to certain theological questions.

However, IF the Jehovahs Witnesses do not have answers and theology/beliefs for such basic questions, then what is the motivation to offer scriptures that are unrelated to or do not answer the question you are actually being asked?

I don't understand the logic of being asked a specific question and offering information that has nothing to do with the question.
Why not simply admit there are scriptural questions the Jehovahs Witnesses do not have an interpretation for, or an answer to?

IF is it possible, could you consider the following questions I have asked many, many, times in prior posts?
OR, conversely, if it is possible, can you confirm the Jehovahs Witnesses do not have the answer to these questions?

My questions are in the following quote I have asked multiple times to Alter2Ego without any answer:

PLEASE DO NOT FORGET I HAVE ASKED MULTIPLE TIMES FOR YOU TO ANSWER MY PRIOR QUESTIONS FROM POST 532

CLEAR ASKED:

1) Regarding the resurrected body in Jehovahs Witness Theology

Since, upon the death of a person, absolutely nothing remains of the dead person, I assume that, in Jehovahs Witness theology, resurrection of the person who had been annihilated consists of God creating a different body (i.e. one capable of a heavenly existence).
Is this correct or do I misunderstand?



2) Regarding the resurrected personality, intelligence and emotions placed into a resurrected body

Since the original personality, intelligence and emotions no longer exist, I assume that, in Jehovahs witness theology, that God places another set of personality, intelligence and emotions into the resurrected body.
Is this correct or do I misunderstand?

Do you have any belief in, or knowledge of, or interpret any scripture or other J.W. Source that can answer these two questions?

In any case Walter, good luck in gaining insights and knowledge during your own spiritual journey in this life.

 

[walter]

Moralorel asked: “First question. The 144,000. Are they truly resurrected spirit individuals or are they physical beings saved on earth from the tribulation?”

Clear noted: “Hi Walter: I don’t follow the logic of how your quotes answer the actual, specific, question Moralorel asked (Perhaps I don’t see the specific answers). Can you clarify just a bit?

You first offered us multiple scriptures without any comments on what they actually mean in the Jehovahs Witness interpretation and usage.”

Walter noted: “...I cannot answer his question because I cannot find scriptures that specifically answer his question.”



Walter, I think it is reasonable not to have all of the answers to certain theological questions.

However, IF the Jehovahs Witnesses do not have answers and theology/beliefs for such basic questions, then what is the motivation to offer scriptures that are unrelated to or do not answer the question you are actually being asked?

I don't understand the logic of being asked a specific question and offering information that has nothing to do with the question.
Why not simply admit there are scriptural questions the Jehovahs Witnesses do not have an interpretation for, or an answer to?

IF is it possible, could you consider the following questions I have asked many, many, times in prior posts?
OR, conversely, if it is possible, can you confirm the Jehovahs Witnesses do not have the answer to these questions?

My questions are in the following quote I have asked multiple times to Alter2Ego without any answer:

PLEASE DO NOT FORGET I HAVE ASKED MULTIPLE TIMES FOR YOU TO ANSWER MY PRIOR QUESTIONS FROM POST 532

CLEAR ASKED:

1) Regarding the resurrected body in Jehovahs Witness Theology

Since, upon the death of a person, absolutely nothing remains of the dead person, I assume that, in Jehovahs Witness theology, resurrection of the person who had been annihilated consists of God creating a different body (i.e. one capable of a heavenly existence).
Is this correct or do I misunderstand?



2) Regarding the resurrected personality, intelligence and emotions placed into a resurrected body

Since the original personality, intelligence and emotions no longer exist, I assume that, in Jehovahs witness theology, that God places another set of personality, intelligence and emotions into the resurrected body.
Is this correct or do I misunderstand?

Do you have any belief in, or knowledge of, or interpret any scripture or other J.W. Source that can answer these two questions?

In any case Walter, good luck in gaining insights and knowledge during your own spiritual journey in this life.

Thank you but the only resource I have is Bible context. I have already posted the scriptures that explain:
- The Bible speaks about one inheritance: the meek shall inherit the Earth.
- The Bible speaks about another inheritance: an inheritance which is in Heaven.

- The Bible explains there are two resurrections, one to heaven.
- And the second resurrection Jesus explains these ones will be raised up and judged on the last day. John 6:40, 12:48
- [ "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed" ] 1 Cor 15:51-53

Is the details that the Bible does not specifically explain really that important?

 

[walter]

I am sure you have good reasons to believe what you believe, I also have good reasons to believe what I believe and I extend to you kindness and respect. I hope for the day in the future when all people will be at peace with each other.

 

[Clear]

1) REGARDING THE INABILITY OF JEHOVAHS WITNESS THEOLOGY TO ANSWER SPECIFIC, BASIC, QUESTIONS.

Clear said: “Walter, I think it is reasonable not to have all of the answers to certain theological questions.

However, IF the Jehovahs Witnesses do not have answers and theology/beliefs for such basic questions, then what is the motivation to offer scriptures that are unrelated to or do not answer the question you are actually being asked?

Walter responded: “Thank you but the only resource I have is Bible context.”


I am not sure what the claim to use “Bible context” means to you other than, in the same manner as other Christians tend to do, you clothe your interpretations in biblical text, but not the historical, biblical, context of early Judeo-Christian worldviews under which ancient Judeo-Christian texts were written.

I agree that your belief system only seem to have only the resource of a modern, English, western, bible which is interpreted through the 1700-1900s lens of a newly created Jehovahs Witness religious movement.

However, this context and interpretive lens is NOT the same “biblical” context as possessed by the Ancient Judeo-Christianity which was able to use the more ancient AND, more original lens of early Judeo-Christian beliefs with their ancient, but more original Koine Greek and eastern bible with their ancient, but more original doctrines and belief system.

The relatively modern creation of Jehovahs witness theology seems (to me) to be much more anemic and less logical and less intuitive than the Christian religion that characterized the earliest Judeo-Christian religion as described in their ancient literature.



2) ARE CERTAIN BASIC ANCIENT CHRISTIAN PRINCIPLES REALLY THAT IMPORTANT?

Clear posted: “I don't understand the logic of being asked a specific question and offering information that has nothing to do with the question.
Why not simply admit there are scriptural questions the Jehovahs Witnesses do not have an interpretation for, or an answer to?”
Walter responded: “Is the details that the Bible does not specifically explain really that important?”

Understanding that certain basic principles have importance is, itself, important.

Most individuals will, at some point, tend to ask themselves very basic, but theologically important questions that form their values that underlie their actions, and their character and motives and goals as they negotiate mortality.

For example, Christian religionists, and others tend to ask themselves at some point some of the following questions:

1) What is the nature of mankind?
Is there a God?
If so, what is his nature?
What was God doing and thinking before creating mankind that motivated him to create mankind?
If God created mankind, why create moral imperfection in mankind that results in so much sin and oppression and suffering?
What is the reason to create sin and suffering and then provide a Christ – why not simply forgive mankind if they learn not to do evil?

2) What is the purpose of mankind during mortality?
If there is a purpose for mankind, what is that purpose?
Are we here to simply believe in and accept the sacrifice of a Messiah and are thus guaranteed some sort of heaven for doing so or are there other purposes and things to accomplish during mortality?
If there are other purposes, what are they and how are they to be accomplished?

3) Is there a life after mortality?
If there is, what is its nature?
Are there rewards and punishments after this life?
How does God decide what sort of eternal life (i.e. reward vs punishment) a person should be assigned to?
IF God created mans Character with evil tendencies, how is it just to punish mankind for tendencies God himself placed into mankind?


Such basic questions are important since such basic doctrines form the basic underlying framework upon which other and more detailed doctrines are attached and strengthened and made rational.

I agree that certain basic doctrines are not important (e.g. Which way do the “pearly gates” swing – inward or outward?), but many basic doctrines have great importance.


I am not trying to fault Jehovahs Witness theology for not having answers to important, basic, questions (especially since it is a relatively young religion without having had a millennia to evolve and “work out its kinks".

However, I do not see any advantage to espousing a new religion over the ancient Judeo-Christian religion that did have answers to these basic questions.

Ancient Judeo-Christianity offers answers that seem (to me) to be much more rational, more intuitive, and which contains answers to basic question which more firmly support the broader and more detailed theology it possessed.



I honestly think you are quite courageous for starting a thread that you knew was going to face basic questions.
Walter, I wish you well in searching for and forming a theological basis that will provide correct answer to such important, but basic questions.
Good spiritual journey to you Walter.

 

[moralorel]

I think some of your words make a lot of sense.. Of course the first resurrection would be a spiritual one because they are going to go to heaven where Spirit Sons of God live. "Angels"

And the second Resurrection would be a physical one because they are going to live forever on a restored New Earth.

Where does it say they will go to heaven? Or that they will be "angels"?

And do ALL of those in the 2nd resurrection live forever? Will they ONLY be physical with no hope of ever being spiritual?

 

[walter]

Walter, I wish you well in searching for and forming a theological basis that will provide correct answer to such important, but basic questions.

Thank you for all your advice and information.

I feel the Bible alone sufficiently answers the questions I feel are important:
1. I have brothers and sisters in the world that are united into 1,108 languages - should I engage in war against any one of them or even enemy nations? In the time of Moses God gave Moses specific instructions to engage in war against enemy nations, Jesus gave specific instructions on how we should treat our neighbors our brothers and sisters and even our enemies. I feel Jesus and the apostles have given sufficient instructions to not engage in war anymore.
2. Does the Bible address sufficiently that we should respect other people's beliefs? Yes.
3. Should we engage in a worldwide Ministry? Yes.
4. Should we give kindness and respect to all? Yes.
5. When a brother or sister becomes baptized and makes a decision to dedicate their life to God, should we exercise scriptural counsel to these ones to determine if they are repentant and still have a respect for the scriptures? I feel the Bible gives sufficient Scriptural Instructions on this subject.
6. Does the Bible teach salvation is a free gift? Yes.
7. Do we get salvation from our actions or are obedience of the scriptures? No. It is by God's Grace and Jesus sacrifice, not from anything we have done or will do.
8. Why do we obey Jesus words and the other instructions in the Bible?
Because Jesus words instruct us to observe his commands Matthew 12:50, 28:20; John 14:23, 15:14 And put into practice the other words in the Bible Luke 8:21, Romans 15:4
9. What does Jesus say about the majority and the few finding life? Matthew 7:13-14; Luke 13:24, John 3:36 says some "will not see life"
Note: Many think that right after we die we continue to live in heaven or hell, So why would Jesus say: Only few find the road that leads to life?

Thank you for your kind words and patience.

 

[walter]

1) REGARDING THE INABILITY OF JEHOVAHS WITNESS THEOLOGY TO ANSWER SPECIFIC, BASIC, QUESTIONS.

Clear said: “Walter, I think it is reasonable not to have all of the answers to certain theological questions.

However, IF the Jehovahs Witnesses do not have answers and theology/beliefs for such basic questions, then what is the motivation to offer scriptures that are unrelated to or do not answer the question you are actually being asked?

Walter responded: “Thank you but the only resource I have is Bible context.”


I am not sure what the claim to use “Bible context” means to you other than, in the same manner as other Christians tend to do, you clothe your interpretations in biblical text, but not the historical, biblical, context of early Judeo-Christian worldviews under which ancient Judeo-Christian texts were written.

I agree that your belief system only seem to have only the resource of a modern, English, western, bible which is interpreted through the 1700-1900s lens of a newly created Jehovahs Witness religious movement.

However, this context and interpretive lens is NOT the same “biblical” context as possessed by the Ancient Judeo-Christianity which was able to use the more ancient AND, more original lens of early Judeo-Christian beliefs with their ancient, but more original Koine Greek and eastern bible with their ancient, but more original doctrines and belief system.

The relatively modern creation of Jehovahs witness theology seems (to me) to be much more anemic and less logical and less intuitive than the Christian religion that characterized the earliest Judeo-Christian religion as described in their ancient literature.



2) ARE CERTAIN BASIC ANCIENT CHRISTIAN PRINCIPLES REALLY THAT IMPORTANT?

Clear posted: “I don't understand the logic of being asked a specific question and offering information that has nothing to do with the question.
Why not simply admit there are scriptural questions the Jehovahs Witnesses do not have an interpretation for, or an answer to?”
Walter responded: “Is the details that the Bible does not specifically explain really that important?”

Understanding that certain basic principles have importance is, itself, important.

Most individuals will, at some point, tend to ask themselves very basic, but theologically important questions that form their values that underlie their actions, and their character and motives and goals as they negotiate mortality.

For example, Christian religionists, and others tend to ask themselves at some point some of the following questions:

1) What is the nature of mankind?
Is there a God?
If so, what is his nature?
What was God doing and thinking before creating mankind that motivated him to create mankind?
If God created mankind, why create moral imperfection in mankind that results in so much sin and oppression and suffering?
What is the reason to create sin and suffering and then provide a Christ – why not simply forgive mankind if they learn not to do evil?

2) What is the purpose of mankind during mortality?
If there is a purpose for mankind, what is that purpose?
Are we here to simply believe in and accept the sacrifice of a Messiah and are thus guaranteed some sort of heaven for doing so or are there other purposes and things to accomplish during mortality?
If there are other purposes, what are they and how are they to be accomplished?

3) Is there a life after mortality?
If there is, what is its nature?
Are there rewards and punishments after this life?
How does God decide what sort of eternal life (i.e. reward vs punishment) a person should be assigned to?
IF God created mans Character with evil tendencies, how is it just to punish mankind for tendencies God himself placed into mankind?


Such basic questions are important since such basic doctrines form the basic underlying framework upon which other and more detailed doctrines are attached and strengthened and made rational.

I agree that certain basic doctrines are not important (e.g. Which way do the “pearly gates” swing – inward or outward?), but many basic doctrines have great importance.


I am not trying to fault Jehovahs Witness theology for not having answers to important, basic, questions (especially since it is a relatively young religion without having had a millennia to evolve and “work out its kinks".

However, I do not see any advantage to espousing a new religion over the ancient Judeo-Christian religion that did have answers to these basic questions.

Ancient Judeo-Christianity offers answers that seem (to me) to be much more rational, more intuitive, and which contains answers to basic question which more firmly support the broader and more detailed theology it possessed.



I honestly think you are quite courageous for starting a thread that you knew was going to face basic questions.
Walter, I wish you well in searching for and forming a theological basis that will provide correct answer to such important, but basic questions.
Good spiritual journey to you Walter.

I think everyone has different questions and answers that are important to them, for me my questions and answers come from what I can find in the Bible.. And I feel the scriptures the Jehovah's Witnesses referred to are sufficient to answer these important questions that I have.

I have had many conversations with different people that believe a certain way with a lot less scriptural backing, but I still respect their words and beliefs.. even though the scriptures they cite as proof do not support their belief in my opinion, I have seen that what makes sense to one person does not make sense to the other person including myself. I just pray and consider all the scriptures to determine a understanding about what I consider important questions and answers.

Thank you for your interest in what the Bible talks about, many people do not even consider the Bible as a reliable source.

 

[walter]

Where does it say they will go to heaven? Or that they will be "angels"?

- Inheritance in the heavens: 1 Peter 1:3-4, Hebrews 3:1, Philippians 3:14 
- Mark 12:25 When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. NIV
Note: There is no scripture that says they will become angels, but I would assume they would have some sort of Spiritual or Heavenly body, since their Inheritance is in heaven. 1 Cor 15:42-44

And do ALL of those in the 2nd resurrection live forever? Will they ONLY be physical with no hope of ever being spiritual?

I will do some research and see what scriptures that I can find that would provide any answers to your questions, if possible.