Some concerning trends in our world regarding religious freedom

This is scary, closing 50,000 church buildings and taking their property. Where will the money go, will they donate all the money to the poor and oppressed. Or will the money end up in the pockets of Trump, Musk and their henchmen?
Right now this is just talk on the part of that joel webbon, who is apparently the minister of a church and has his own social media platform.
The point I'm making is to take a look at how some people would like to harm the religious freedom of others if they could, and they would use government to do it if they could. He couldn't be more blatant about it.

The point I'm making is under the general principle "the price of freedom is eternal vigilance" In this case focusing on religious freedom as that is what makes is pertinent and why iBrian said it was okay to give the post a try. Regarding any freedom, in this case religious freedom: There are people who will threaten it if they can, take it away if they can, and due to the shift in the Overton Window, there are people like mr webbon who feel emboldened to say these things, not fearing being shamed for saying such horrible things, and the possibility exists that mr webbon or someone like him or worse can increase their following if they mouth off and attract disgruntled contrarians. That's why pushback from people like Rev Ed and hopefully more people, is so important. It is the opposing ideas of religious freedom for all, and equality for citizens no matter what their religion or creed that I don't want people to forget. (read more of what mr webbon has to say on this and related topics and you see how fiercely he opposes those most crucial principles)
 
I thought just the U.S was a place where anyone could found a church and preach no matter what.
Mostly they can, but churches are businesses and can get into legal trouble like other entities.
What mr webbon wants is for the government to go after people for doctrinal reasons.
 
Did your father ever tell you about the time when California seized the Worldwide Church of God?
You mean my grandfather. He talked about Garner Ted a lot. I was a kid at the time.
You can read the book written by the financial advisor guy, from his POV, for free, if you want.

mr webbon would himself want the government to threaten the Armstrong churches* due to their heterodox theological and doctrinal positions (what they themselves referred to as 'the plain truth')

mr webbon seems to be advocating for a total external takeover of churches he doesn't agree with doctrinally, for the government to proactively engage in said takeover. And his buddies say how kind it would be to just throw people onto the street rather than to jail them. For their beliefs. This would be so much more than purely intra-church rivalries coming to a head and getting the courts involved. (which is what happened in the Armstrong case and seems to be what happened in the cases you alluded to)

*The Armstrong churches don't really exist today, what was left of them went mainstream evangelical (I think adopting Nicene creed and Christmas and everything!) and there are several spinoff churches that adhere to the Armstrong heterodox doctrinal positions.
 
Last edited:
Though this has a political angle to it, at it's heart it's about religious freedom - who can have it, who cherishes it for all, and who doesn't.
I did check in with iBrian about it and we decided to see how it goes.
I think we're doing pretty well.
at it's heart it's about religious freedom
ahem, my own grammatical error
SHOULD BE
at its heart it's about religious freedom.
 
You Christians take heed, read the Gospel and do not follow the false prophets. I prefer a confessing atheist who is honest and respectful to a hypocrite who claims to be chosen by god (intentional lower case, because it's nothing to do with Him) but only searches to be glorified in this world.

You can close all churches and follow Jesus in what he said. Or leave them all open and follow Jesus as good as you can.
You can also close 50 churches and follow the devil with his illusions.
Indeed, indeed. I'm convinced mr webbon and his ilk are up to no good. :confused:
 
You mean my grandfather. He talked about Garner Ted a lot. I was a kid at the time.
You can read the book written by the financial advisor guy, from his POV, for free, if you want.

mr webbon would himself want the government to threaten the Armstrong churches* due to their heterodox theological and doctrinal positions (what they themselves referred to as 'the plain truth')

mr webbon seems to be advocating for a total external takeover of churches he doesn't agree with doctrinally, for the government to proactively engage in said takeover. And his buddies say how kind it would be to just throw people onto the street rather than to jail them. For their beliefs. This would be so much more than purely intra-church rivalries coming to a head and getting the courts involved. (which is what happened in the Armstrong case and seems to be what happened in the cases you alluded to)

*The Armstrong churches don't really exist today, what was left of them went mainstream evangelical (I think adopting Nicene creed and Christmas and everything!) and there are several spinoff churches that adhere to the Armstrong heterodox doctrinal positions.
My apologies. Yes, your grandfather.

There were multiple takeovers. It's so sad.

But many of the churches do still exist today. Most still keep the name "Church of God". Some of the old leaders are still alive too. They still follow similar doctrines. But the original church is just another mainstream evangelical church today. They even changed their name to distance themselves from Mr. Armstrong.
 
I thought just the U.S was a place where anyone could found a church and preach no matter what.
In Switzerland, in most Cantons (like federal states, but much smaller than an U.S state), there are three churches that have a special status (taxed with the cantonal tax, with a prescribed democratic structure and non -confessional social tasks). All other congregations have the legal form of an association, where it is prescribed that the members elect the board every year, and it is obligatory to have a constitution that regulates the competences, the procedure to enter the association and to exclude someone from the association (a right to leave by free will is granted as well) which can only be changed with a qualified majority of the members. Anyone has to obey the legislation and can be sentenced, but even a person who is in jail can be and stay member of the board; he or she could theoretically even be elected member of the parliament or the government, CEO or whatever. But, off course, such person is likely not (re-)elected except the majority of the voters thinks that the penalty was injustice or accepts regret and atonement.
Churches are supposed to be separate from the state. But somehow these odd cases slip through the cracks.

Did not know that about Switzerland. Good to know.
 
But many of the churches do still exist today. Most still keep the name "Church of God". Some of the old leaders are still alive too.
Spin-offs, really, though I suppose many may be the old congregations or the next generation thereof. But they didn't stick together as a single remnant. There are several, the United Church of God, the Restored Church of God, Living Church of God, Church of God International, Church of God 7Day, Remnant of the Worldwide Church of God, I think there are others.

This is from Grace International, the supposed successor, having thoroughly changed everything

This 15 minute video goes into the Worldwide Church of God and some of its ideas.
It doesn't go much into the organizational structure of its spinoffs, only alludes to them.
Blast to the past for me, though I wasn't raised in it as fully as Matt Baker of Useful Charts.
 
Last edited:
Right now this is just talk on the part of that joel webbon, who is apparently the minister of a church and has his own social media platform.
The point I'm making is to take a look at how some people would like to harm the religious freedom of others if they could, and they would use government to do it if they could. He couldn't be more blatant about it.
I think FaithfulServant got it on the nose when she pointed out there have always been extremists (on all sides), and gave the Westboro Baptist Church as a particular example.
 
There in lies rhe rub...

Someone, some group with the need to control.

Not inspire, not lead, not understand...

Control.

In order to enslave, take advantage of, make money off of...control...
Yep! And then when this controlling leadership succeeds in gaining political control as well, it is a scary thing.
 
there have always been extremists (on all sides),
I certainly think mr webbon's views are extreme, and would be happy to believe he was widely considered extreme when he was considered at all.

Even so, there's not always a neat definable line or set of mutually exclusive categories that wall off extremists. Extreme views can be held by very ordinary people. Extreme views and less extreme views can exist side by side in the same organizations. Different people have different ideas on what they consider extreme as well.

It's also not uncommon for people to lump people in certain categories together and miss distinctions -- I think I saw something said on the Ed Trevor video I posted in my OP - either in the comment section or somewhere like FB where I may have first seen this video - someone saying something like "Oh, there go the fundies again!" or words to that effect.

It's like moderate or progressive viewers lumping mr webbon, fundamentalists generally, and possibly a wider array of evangelicals, all into the same category.

What are my conclusions from all those observations? At least in the context of this thread?
Well, for one thing it may not always be easy to draw neat lines around extremists -
But still, the importance of not overlooking such bold hostility to the rights and status of others based on their religion.
 
It is important to remember too - it is possible to not hold a view, but still be okay with it or at least unoffended by it.
There are quite a lot of views common on the progressive side theologically or otherwise that I don't necessarily hold myself but am not troubled by. That would be at the heart of this concern - Are there people who may be less extreme than mr webbon, but somehow untroubled by his views? I'm sure there are... it becomes problematic if there are a great many people who, while not sharing his views exactly, are blasé about them.
 
It has happened. Did your father ever tell you about the time when California seized the Worldwide Church of God? Some progressive followers who were kicked out of the church made up some lies about the church's financial practices. The state came into the church headquarters and started seizing documents. They admitted that they didn't have any evidence that the church had violated any laws. So they came there with a warrant to search the church for evidence. The state appointed someone as the head of the church for the duration of the investigation. They found nothing. But they charged the church $200,000 in fees for the search. True story.

In my state a Lutheran church had a doctrinal issue. A small group of progressive followers felt that Jesus Christ should no longer be considered an actual person, rather he should be considered to be a symbol. They sued the church. The state got involved and stripped the church of its leadership. They placed these new progressive members in charge of the church. Another true story.

Somehow it does happen.
What you describe is a recognized pattern. Established religion ("church") doesn't like new religion ("cult') and seeks out apostates from the "cult." They have a mutually beneficial relationship (there is such a thing as the apostate career). The apostate contributes an insider narrative of the real goings-on inside the "cult," which the "church" uses to give credibility and enlist the resources of a government to act against the "cult." Sociologists have many examples. The big name is the the sociologist David G. Bromley:
David G. Bromley - Wikipedia

The OP looks different: an extreme cult (sociologically defined, not theologically) is wanting to enlist government.
 
Worldly power taking over faith or religious leaders taking worldly power hardly ever gets well.

My religion is biased in this, as Muhammad (p.b.u.h) actually did the latter, as there were no stately institutions in East Arabia in his time. From where, there have always been goveners who instrumentalised religion for their worldly power, and at the same time struggling against religious people who may take over the power.
And those religious people who succeeded in taking over the power all failed tremendously.
....

You can give yourself a break so far as the Prophet Muhammad goes. He did not take worldly power, he respected it and set a good example of the separation of religious and worldly authority. But history is written by the victors. The Sirah and most of the Hadith, the accounts that give us the historical picture of what the Prophet Muhammad was doing, were written in the time of the Caliphs. They present Muhammad as if he was the Caliph of Medina. But between the lines, and in the Qur'an, we can see a different picture. The Banu Qurayza massacre is an example: Muhammad did not make the decision, he followed custom, he obeyed the decision.
In the Qur'an, Muhammad is the Messenger of God and leader of the religious community, but is not given any civil authority:

I [Muhammad] am not over you as a warder…(6:104)
We have not set you [Muhammad] over them as a warder, and you are not over them as a guardian. (6:107)
We have sent you to the people as a messenger … whoever obeys the messenger has obeyed God, and as for those who turn away, we have not sent you as a warder over them. (4:79-80)
We know what they say: you do not have the power of enforcement over them. Cause them to remember, through the Quran … (50:45)
(and many more similar verses)

Anyone with an Arabic concordance can multiply these examples, by following the Arabic terms for the words messenger, warner, preacher, witness, summoner, one who calls to remembrance and one who brings good news, and also the terms for the roles Muhammad does not have: warder, guardian, ruler and similar. Without pretending to be exhaustive, see the verses 2:119, 11:2, 13:40, 14:52, 28:46, 29:50, 32:3, 34:46, 35:23, 37 and 42, 38:65 and 70, 41:4, 42:6, 44:12, 46:9, 51:50-1; 67:8-9 and 26.

When we put these verses together, it becomes clear that the very meaning of Muhammad’s most common title, rasuul or messenger, is “the one who warns, preaches summons and bears witness, but who does not have the function of warder, guardian or ruler, nor any power to compel.” And when we see how numerous such verses are, it begins to appear as if the distinction between prophetic and temporal authority is one of the central themes of the Quran.

Similar declarations about demarcated religious authority are made concerning the Quran or Furqan, which is a warning (25:1), about all the prophets collectively (6:48, 34:34,44, 35:24, 18:56, 29:18, 36:17) who are all sent only to preach (16:35), and also about individual prophets such as Noah (71:1-2), Moses (17:105, 5:21, 5:28), Hud (46:21), Lot (54:33-36), and Jesus (5:49). The Prophet Shu’aib says ‘I am not set over you as a warder’ (11:86).

Muhammad is called “one of the warners of old” (53:56), placing him in the same line as all of these figures, whose warnings have been rejected, along with the prophets who brought them.

I have more on this on my blog at :
Church and State in Islam
and look also for "Muhammad at Medina" and "church and state in scripture."

The short version is: the scriptures of all the Abrahamic religions endorse the "render to Caesar" principle. Islam is not an exception. "This is the ancient Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future." Superficial things change, but the essential truths are only re-translated in the language of the time.
 
Do "religious" people here have themselves interests above the world, beyond sensuality? So it's just running the way desired. Conflicts are always for sure if higher is used for serving low.
By the way "religious freedom" is a total absurdum, since re-legion means (re)bond. One who seeks for freedom where there isn't get's trapped like a hungry fish.
 
What you describe is a recognized pattern. Established religion ("church") doesn't like new religion ("cult') and seeks out apostates from the "cult." They have a mutually beneficial relationship (there is such a thing as the apostate career). The apostate contributes an insider narrative of the real goings-on inside the "cult," which the "church" uses to give credibility and enlist the resources of a government to act against the "cult." Sociologists have many examples. The big name is the the sociologist David G. Bromley:
David G. Bromley - Wikipedia

The OP looks different: an extreme cult (sociologically defined, not theologically) is wanting to enlist government.
That isn't what happened here, but ok.

These were people who became part of a church but missed a church they used to be part of. Instead of doing the logical thing and leaving this church and returning to their old one, they decided to try to change this church into their old one. I've seen it happen a few times, but these are the two times I know of where the government got involved.
 
The OP looks different: an extreme cult (sociologically defined, not theologically) is wanting to enlist government.
Well, perhaps theologically too.
I think they are the ones who want a Christian monarch.
That would be political and theological.
Do you have a link to anything that describes the definitions - the differences between the sociological vs theological definition of cult? And who developed those definitions?

I know there are those who refer to ANY degree of heterodoxy as "a cult"
Now the Armstrong churches had heterodox teachings, and the charismatic leader, and made financial demands of its members.

(I remember my grandmother worrying about the amount of money my grandfather sent to them. I have no idea how much it was)

And claimed the world was ending soon.

The part I have any nostalgia for and/or agreement with is the heterodox teaching.
 
Back
Top