otherbrother
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A useful neologism might be “IDEAism,” without the “L”. The idea attracts positive reality. Mind over matter.
Religion as Self Fulfilling Prophecy
- Thread starter otherbrother
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Aupmanyav
Be your own guru.
Strife. Palestine/Israel, India/Pakistan.
Why would I recommend trash to you, but if you insist ..
You can find some here: bayans Pakistan at DuckDuckGo
In Zen, one-handed clap is possible. I experienced something like that some two decades ago. I do not remember it now.
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I thought you meant this for real so... I asked
ok
But without context I'm not sure what I'm looking at or what it will help me understand
talib-al-kalim
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I think a "love for all" is too much. If this love doesn't result in an adequate engagement, it is shallow. If you really take it serious, you will result in a burn-out. We are limited. It's better to concentrate on those who are near. We can try to be respectful and friendly to all, give support to organisations if we can afford it, but love needs to be selective to stay true.
The other thing is not to fall into hatred, or, if so, stand up and discard it. That's possible, insha'Allah, if we accept the Holy Spirit in us and let Her work, fulfilling itself in us and fulfilling ourselves in Her.
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I have sometimes heard of the Holy Spirit being referred to as Her, in the more esoteric traditions.
Sophia.
talib-al-kalim
Well-Known Member
It's the Semitic gender. But we know that God is not male and His Spirit is not female.
I don't know why I never introduced this before ... The Imaginal Realm ... I first came across this reading Henri Corbin, but a substack post by Dr Michael Martin talks at length on the topic ... below are extracts from the third and final part of his essay on the Imagination
The Imaginal Realm, the Otherworld, and Theurgy
"My claim: the imaginal world is just as substantial as any world, including those we think we inhabit. Another name for the imaginal realm, or at least an aspect of it, is the Otherworld.
The great French scholar and philosopher of religion Henri Corbin explains the characteristics of the imaginal realm:
"Between the universe that can be apprehended by pure intellectual perception and the universe perceptible to the senses, there is an intermediate world, the world of idea-images, of archetypal figures, or subtle substances, of ‘immaterial’ matter. This world is as real and objective, as consistent and subsistent as the intelligible and sensibly worlds; it is an intermediate universe ‘where the spiritual takes body and the body becomes spiritual,’ a world consisting of real matter and real extension, though by comparison to sensible, corruptible matter these are subtle and immaterial. The organ of the universe is the active imagination; it is the place of theophanic visions, the scene on which visionary events and symbolic histories appear in their true reality."
"... Robert Fludd scientifically diagrammed this same realm and its relationship to human perception (diagram above). For Fludd, it is precisely in such a between realm that the soul appears: Hic anima est.
Though I don’t think they are identical, the imaginal world in which visionary events and symbolic histories appear in their true reality is analogous to the metaxu in which Sophia appears as (and at) the threshold between the Creation and Divinity. Both represent an absolute reality of the structures of the cosmos and of consciousness, though both are almost entirely ignored by contemporary science, philosophy, and theology. Only at the fringes of theology does Sophia find welcome, and only in rare subcultures of the arts does serious consideration of the imaginal obtain purchase.
A continuation of the above ...
"On an individual level, a sound way to develop the Imagination is through the cultivation of the arts, or of craft, anything from writing poetry or music, to woodworking, to gardening, to blacksmithing. While not failsafe (many people involved in such works nevertheless can find themselves spellbound), these activities do lead one into a contemplative state of beholding, akin to prayer, which certainly strengthens the Imagination. When this happens, the arts can become theurgy. As Nikolai Berdyaev writes,
“Art is religious in the depths of the very artistic creative act. Within its own limits, the artist’s creation is theurgic action. Theurgy is free creation, liberated from norms of this world which might be imposed upon it. But in the depths of theurgic action there is revealed the religious-ontological, the religious meaning of being. Theurgy cannot be either an imposed norm or a low for art. Theurgy is the final bourne of the artist’s inward desire, its action in the world. The man who confuses theurgy with religious tendencies in art does not know what theurgy is. Theurgy is the final liberty of art, the inwardly-attained limit of the artist’s creativeness. Theurgy is an action superior to magic, for it is action together with God; it is the continuation of creation with God. The theurge, working together with God, creates the cosmos; creates beauty as being. Theurgy is a challenge to religious creativity. In theurgy Christian transcendence is transformed into immanence and by means of theurgy perfection is attained.”
As Berdyaev notes, “It is not art alone, which leads to theurgy, but art is one of the principal ways to it.” And it is this because it a strengthening and implementation of the Imagination.
Of course, liturgical practices, such as those found in the traditional Roman Catholic Mass and the Byzantine Liturgy are great repositories of theurgy, what Valentin Tomberg calls “sacred magic,” and those liturgies, with their chanting, hymns, prayers, artworks, incense, vestments, and the Eucharist itself provide the Imagination with a rich environment in which to flourish (not to mention grace). Nevertheless, the governance structures Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and all varieties of Protestantism have to one degree or another been co-opted by the magic of the technocrats, either voluntarily or unconsciously; and while the sacred magic of the liturgies is still intact, the edifices of these great institutions have lost much in the way of legitimacy. I don’t see them standing up to the technocratic magicians with anything close to an equal level of force. At worst, they are co-conspirators; at best, they are waiting for Jesus to do something about it. I don’t think that a helpful strategy.
If we were to appropriate the tools of the technocratic magicians, we could flood culture with images and languages of the good—in all of the fine and practical arts, in public liturgical celebration, in festival, and even in mourning. To be sure, all these have been tried and all are realities in the here and now—but, since the internet and social media are the prime vehicles to reach a wide audience, the technocratic magicians limit the reach of the Good, the True, and the Beautiful through the clever deployment of algorithms if not outright censorship. But even were those hindrances not in place, the Good would be degraded in kipple simply by the medium itself. There will be no baptizing of the internet or social media. How could there be? Neither one has a substantial reality. Indeed, they represent a synthetic Otherworld, an electronic liminal realm. These are our Satanic Mills (ref. William Blake's Jerusalem).
What Blake upholds here (in the poem) is what Berdyaev calls “active eschatology” which is “the justification of the creative power of man.” That is, it is now time to act, not be acted upon and not wait for the eschaton to come to us. Instead, we need to immanentize not the eschaton but the Imagination (which amounts to the same thing). This terrifies the technocratic magicians, which is why they expend so much energy on keeping us entranced by the spells of their propaganda and the superstructure of their false reality. Take up your weapons, whatever weapons you have been given through the gift of the Imagination, and build Jerusalem."
"On an individual level, a sound way to develop the Imagination is through the cultivation of the arts, or of craft, anything from writing poetry or music, to woodworking, to gardening, to blacksmithing. While not failsafe (many people involved in such works nevertheless can find themselves spellbound), these activities do lead one into a contemplative state of beholding, akin to prayer, which certainly strengthens the Imagination. When this happens, the arts can become theurgy. As Nikolai Berdyaev writes,
“Art is religious in the depths of the very artistic creative act. Within its own limits, the artist’s creation is theurgic action. Theurgy is free creation, liberated from norms of this world which might be imposed upon it. But in the depths of theurgic action there is revealed the religious-ontological, the religious meaning of being. Theurgy cannot be either an imposed norm or a low for art. Theurgy is the final bourne of the artist’s inward desire, its action in the world. The man who confuses theurgy with religious tendencies in art does not know what theurgy is. Theurgy is the final liberty of art, the inwardly-attained limit of the artist’s creativeness. Theurgy is an action superior to magic, for it is action together with God; it is the continuation of creation with God. The theurge, working together with God, creates the cosmos; creates beauty as being. Theurgy is a challenge to religious creativity. In theurgy Christian transcendence is transformed into immanence and by means of theurgy perfection is attained.”
As Berdyaev notes, “It is not art alone, which leads to theurgy, but art is one of the principal ways to it.” And it is this because it a strengthening and implementation of the Imagination.
Of course, liturgical practices, such as those found in the traditional Roman Catholic Mass and the Byzantine Liturgy are great repositories of theurgy, what Valentin Tomberg calls “sacred magic,” and those liturgies, with their chanting, hymns, prayers, artworks, incense, vestments, and the Eucharist itself provide the Imagination with a rich environment in which to flourish (not to mention grace). Nevertheless, the governance structures Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and all varieties of Protestantism have to one degree or another been co-opted by the magic of the technocrats, either voluntarily or unconsciously; and while the sacred magic of the liturgies is still intact, the edifices of these great institutions have lost much in the way of legitimacy. I don’t see them standing up to the technocratic magicians with anything close to an equal level of force. At worst, they are co-conspirators; at best, they are waiting for Jesus to do something about it. I don’t think that a helpful strategy.
If we were to appropriate the tools of the technocratic magicians, we could flood culture with images and languages of the good—in all of the fine and practical arts, in public liturgical celebration, in festival, and even in mourning. To be sure, all these have been tried and all are realities in the here and now—but, since the internet and social media are the prime vehicles to reach a wide audience, the technocratic magicians limit the reach of the Good, the True, and the Beautiful through the clever deployment of algorithms if not outright censorship. But even were those hindrances not in place, the Good would be degraded in kipple simply by the medium itself. There will be no baptizing of the internet or social media. How could there be? Neither one has a substantial reality. Indeed, they represent a synthetic Otherworld, an electronic liminal realm. These are our Satanic Mills (ref. William Blake's Jerusalem).
What Blake upholds here (in the poem) is what Berdyaev calls “active eschatology” which is “the justification of the creative power of man.” That is, it is now time to act, not be acted upon and not wait for the eschaton to come to us. Instead, we need to immanentize not the eschaton but the Imagination (which amounts to the same thing). This terrifies the technocratic magicians, which is why they expend so much energy on keeping us entranced by the spells of their propaganda and the superstructure of their false reality. Take up your weapons, whatever weapons you have been given through the gift of the Imagination, and build Jerusalem."
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I have read that in a few places.
Does not formal Christian orthodox doctrine insist all 3 persons of the trinity are male?
Or is that just a Got Questions? type of contrivance and/or incomplete answer?
Wait - Got questions was a little more nuanced than I thought they might be on that
Is the Holy Spirit a “He,” “She,” or “It,” male, female, or neuter? | GotQuestions.org
Is the Holy Spirit a “He,” “She,” or “It,” male, female, or neuter? Does the Holy Spirit have a gender?
www.gotquestions.org
I've just seen it dogmatically elsewhere that all 3 of the trinity are male.
As I have seen it from time to time about Ruach, Shekinah, or Sophia, being female
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I'm glad you are bringing it up. It may be helpful to talk about the difference between imaginary and imaginal.
It's very easy to think of spiritual / religious / supernatural ideas as being imaginary, given the fact that our main experience of them is with the use of our imagination. It naturally leads some people to question the validity of anything they hear on spiritual topics.
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Is this what was meant - I think on a different thread? about ritualism being akin to "Left Hand Path" - and I asked whether that meant that even Right Hand Path orthodoxies had LHP material in them --?
Also, what is a technocratic magician? What is an example?
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These ideas are fascinating. I wish everybody talked about them more (in contexts where one talks about religion, which is not everywhere always)
Proselytizers NEVER mention these things. They want you to change your religious commitments on the spot because they approached you, but they NEVER mention deep and intriguing things like this to back themselves up...
???
Proselytizers NEVER mention these things. They want you to change your religious commitments on the spot because they approached you, but they NEVER mention deep and intriguing things like this to back themselves up...
???
Can you access The Druid Stares Back substack?
Scripture speaks in male terms ... but the Church has always been aware of the femininity of Sophia.
I would suggest the reason for the male designation is pastoral.
Introduce one person as feminine, and you immediately set up husband/wife or brother/sister or father - brother - sister ... so an overt anthropomorphism ... whereas the all-male designation goes some way to avoiding that, and then when we designate the soul as always feminine in relation to God, that opens the way to ideas of the creative act on a broader, more profound dynamic, such as the birth of the Word in the soul ...
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