If you meet Eckhart on the road ...

[TheLightWithin]

OP: If you meet Eckhart on the road ...
I would not know who he is. But my belief is completely different. I will not have any problem in shaking hands with him, but would not engage in any discussion.

Christian mystic. You could look it up... interesting stuff.
Why decline some discussion after shaking hands? Might be interesting stuff!

 

[Aupmanyav]

Christian mystic. You could look it up... interesting stuff.
Why decline some discussion after shaking hands? Might be interesting stuff!

I know, I know. Not interesting for me. We have lots of mysticism in Hinduism,. but it never appealed to me.
Christian and mystic! Muslim and mystic. No, that is not even mysticism, it is a fake.

 

[TheLightWithin]

I know, I know. Not interesting for me. We have lots of mysticism in Hinduism,. but it never appealed to me.
Christian and mystic! Muslim and mystic. No, that is not even mysticism, it is a fake.

What do you mean by that?

 

[Aupmanyav]

What do you mean by that?

Whether Eckhart or Sufi, that is only a subterfuge; still Christian or Muslim. Hindu mysticism is not tied to religion.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Some paths start with humans and end with humans. Buddhism and some paths of Hinduism.
They do not need a recourse to imaginary things - 'divine'.

It's only your belief that the history of Abrahamic religion is concocted or deluded.

 

[Aupmanyav]

It's only your belief that the history of Abrahamic religion is concocted or deluded.

If not so, provide evidence.

 

[muhammad_isa]

If not so, provide evidence..

There's not enough space on the server .. if you want evidence, then have a look at
this and that for starters..

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. if you want evidence, then have a look at this and that for starters..

I have done more reading than this and that.

 

[talib-al-kalim]

would be interesting in discussing how and where that influence is seen, as 'Christian mysticism' is well rooted in Jewish mystical speculation and the insights of Platonic Philosophy, in the writings of St Paul and St John particularly. No doubt there was dialogue, but there are other significant players in his formative influences.

Don't forget John, the prophet and Jesus.

There is a view that traces the pre-Islamic roots of Sufism to the Desert Fathers & Mothers in Egypt in the early Christian centuries

Indeed, Islamic ascetic traditional root in monastic Christian traditions of the East (today Iraq, Syria, Iran, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia). There must also have been Jewish ascetic groups. Ibn Hanbal collected many traditions attributed to Jesus and to Moses. Apart from quotes from known scripture there are many that can only be quotes from ascetic Christians and Jews. All those ahadith have a reference to the first Muslim scholar. The Christians are all from the above mentioned areas (I haven't analysed the Jewish chains so far) right after conquest of the respective area, thus people who converted.

– a common etymology of the term Sufi is from the word "Ṣūf" means 'wool', because the ascetics often wore coarse woolen clothes, as did the Desert Monastics, but I think I prefer the idea the word derives from the word for 'wisdom', but I have no Arabic, so ...

Sufi is actually a foreign designation.

Inayat Khan (1882-1927), one of those responsible for the transmission of Sufism in the West, saw a universality in his "message of spiritual liberty", saying: "Every age of the world has seen awakened souls, and as it is impossible to limit wisdom to any one period or place, so it is impossible to date the origin of Sufism."

That's correct. Sufism has developed out of the ascetic tradition. The difference is that they are less ascetic than the elder ascetics and they accept/develop/apply methods and teachings that are not based on the Quran and the hadith.

 

[Thomas]

Sufi is actually a foreign designation.

I think I'd heard something along those lines ... I can't recall where.

That's correct. Sufism has developed out of the ascetic tradition. The difference is that they are less ascetic than the elder ascetics and they accept/develop/apply methods and teachings that are not based on the Quran and the hadith.

The ascetic tradition is, I think we both agree, universal and as ubiquitous.

When you say 'out of the ascetic tradition' d'you mean a tradition prior to those groups designated as 'Sufi', or that the practitioners of that asceticism were called Sufi when characterised by Islamic elements? By which I mean, do you see it as essentially the same tradition?

And when you say 'less ascetic than the elder ascetics' d'you mean Western Sufis, or Sufis vis-a-vis the 'elder ascetics'?

 

[talib-al-kalim]

When you say 'out of the ascetic tradition' d'you mean a tradition prior to those groups designated as 'Sufi', or that the practitioners of that asceticism were called Sufi when characterised by Islamic elements? By which I mean, do you see it as essentially the same tradition?

I think that the Sufi schools arose out of serious more or less ascetic scholars. Until about 1000 CE, there was no strict difference between different access to belief; scholars may have had a strict, literal and mystic access at the same time. The break between more "legalist" and more *mystic" scholars came later, around 1000 CE, where the mystic/ascetic scholars met in separate groups and were called Sufi when other Islamic scholars.

And when you say 'less ascetic than the elder ascetics' d'you mean Western Sufis, or Sufis vis-a-vis the 'elder ascetics'?

I mean Islamic Sufi after 1200 CE vs. before 1000 CE.