A non-Christian understanding of the Christian Bible

[badger]

There is only one boss ...


It's really difficult because in the current climate reasoned discussion opens the door to flame wars.

I would offer that Jesus habitually sided with the underdog; the poor, the oppressed, the downcast, the downtrodden, the dispossessed. He was generally against wealth and definitely against the avaricious acquisition thereof, and he had absolutely no time for the boastful and the hypocrite. Compare that outlook to that of some contemporary political figures, and I'll leave the rest to you ...

Thank you for your answer.

Yes, I've been discussing arguing politics until a couple of weeks ago, and I've stopped discussions about party politics outside of my own country (UK) since then. I consider that forums continuing some kinds of conversation will be putting themselves in danger.

OK......so in good faith I will continue to discuss old testament history and the story of Jesus openly and without any connections to this day and age.

 

[Yahweh kid]

Yahweh kid, thank you for your post. I was very interested to read your post and it is pleasant indeed to hear that you have peace through your beliefs.

I have no intention of ever directly challenging any person's beliefs if they are the cause of friendship and peace to all, I meet with Christians (and others) twice a week and we have great conversations and enjoyment together.

I think the way is to take interest in every bodies' and any bodies' good lives and beliefs and of course that has to include every and any doctrines and religions.

You'll notice that I debate 'strongly' with members like Thomas but I only do that because I think that it gives us both an interest, I certainly don't think that we are pitted against each other fiercely. Over many years it has challenged me and can adjust or even change my points of view.

You all have a lot of knowledge, way more than I do. My focus is not on this life, but rather the after life...... that is why I look into the religions, faiths, beliefs, etc. I do not believe there are more than one Truth when it comes to spirituality.......deception makes it very difficult to find.

I love these words from Jesus...

Mark 12:30-31
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
​

If we can live by these commandments, we will have peace in this world...

Be blessed

 

[Longfellow]

This is an update on my ways of thinking about Jesus and the Bible. They all revolve around the idea that the best life we can live is in service and obedience to the God of Jesus, learning together to live the way that He says to live. A person doesn’t need to understand it in those terms to benefit from it, but in online discussions I’m only discussing it in biblical terms. One example of it might be small group workshops using spiritual growth materials designed to develop qualities and capacities for service in helping to make the community life in a neighborhood or village healthier, happier and more loving for every person in it.

I think that people growing spiritually together that way is at least part of what “kingdom of God” or “kingdom of heaven” means in the New Testament. I think that’s what Jesus wants for people most of all. Everything that He says and does is for that purpose. The reason that He is called “Son of God.” is because that’s what He is in a Jewish context, the king that God said that He would raise up from the line of David. It’s for Jews to know that serving and obeying Him, Jesus, is serving and obeying God.

In order to enter His kingdom, we need to be freed from slavery to our impulses and desires for immediate self-gratification. The way that Jesus died, and His resurrection, serve that purpose in some ways that I don’t fully understand and maybe never will.

We don’t need to know who or what the Holy Spirit is, or how they are related to God, to enter the kingdom and to have the life that Jesus wants for us. What we need to know is only about the *power* of the Holy Spirit, to know that things can happen that are beyond human powers, and to open ourselves to that power in our lives.

We don’t need to have any belief that Jesus is or is not God, to enter His kingdom and have the life that He wants for us. What we need to know is only that all of the authority, power, knowledge and wisdom of God is in Him, so that doing His will is doing God’s will.

That’s my understanding of the gospel of Jesus in the Bible. When a person sees God in Jesus and is moved by that to want to serve and obey God and learn together with others to live the way He says to live, then they are living the best life they can. One way for people to be attracted to that and maybe drawn into it might be to see it happening to other people, and maybe especially to see them washing each other’s feet, figuratively speaking. I’ve had a glimpse of how that might happen, and that’s what I would want to learn to practice and promote if I continued to post in online discussions.

 

[Longfellow]

You all have a lot of knowledge, way more than I do. My focus is not on this life, but rather the after life...... that is why I look into the religions, faiths, beliefs, etc. I do not believe there are more than one Truth when it comes to spirituality.......deception makes it very difficult to find.

I love these words from Jesus...

Mark 12:30-31
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
​

If we can live by these commandments, we will have peace in this world...

Be blessed

Jesus gives us a commandment which He calls a *new* commandment. What do you think is mew about it?

 

[Alif Balaam Yashin]

This is an update on my ways of thinking about Jesus and the Bible. They all revolve around the idea that the best life we can live is in service and obedience to the God of Jesus, learning together to live the way that He says to live. A person doesn’t need to understand it in those terms to benefit from it, but in online discussions I’m only discussing it in biblical terms. One example of it might be small group workshops using spiritual growth materials designed to develop qualities and capacities for service in helping to make the community life in a neighborhood or village healthier, happier and more loving for every person in it.

I think that people growing spiritually together that way is at least part of what “kingdom of God” or “kingdom of heaven” means in the New Testament. I think that’s what Jesus wants for people most of all. Everything that He says and does is for that purpose. The reason that He is called “Son of God.” is because that’s what He is in a Jewish context, the king that God said that He would raise up from the line of David. It’s for Jews to know that serving and obeying Him, Jesus, is serving and obeying God.

In order to enter His kingdom, we need to be freed from slavery to our impulses and desires for immediate self-gratification. The way that Jesus died, and His resurrection, serve that purpose in some ways that I don’t fully understand and maybe never will.

We don’t need to know who or what the Holy Spirit is, or how they are related to God, to enter the kingdom and to have the life that Jesus wants for us. What we need to know is only about the *power* of the Holy Spirit, to know that things can happen that are beyond human powers, and to open ourselves to that power in our lives.

We don’t need to have any belief that Jesus is or is not God, to enter His kingdom and have the life that He wants for us. What we need to know is only that all of the authority, power, knowledge and wisdom of God is in Him, so that doing His will is doing God’s will.

That’s my understanding of the gospel of Jesus in the Bible. When a person sees God in Jesus and is moved by that to want to serve and obey God and learn together with others to live the way He says to live, then they are living the best life they can. One way for people to be attracted to that and maybe drawn into it might be to see it happening to other people, and maybe especially to see them washing each other’s feet, figuratively speaking. I’ve had a glimpse of how that might happen, and that’s what I would want to learn to practice and promote if I continued to post in online discussions.

Here's my problem with this statement:

We have nothing brought to us by the Abrahamic god, and nothing that Yeshua himself ever wrote. What we do have is a labyrinth of interpretations, generations of men speculating, moralizing, and philosophizing about how they believe life should be lived, not through divine revelation but through the lens of culture, politics, and personal bias. Each sect, each translation, each council reshaped the myth to suit its time, its rulers, its social needs. What began as tribal mythology became institutional dogma, sanctified opinion masquerading as eternal truth.

These so-called revelations are less messages from heaven and more mirrors reflecting the ambitions of men, men who sought to define morality, control behavior, and dictate purpose. The scriptures are, therefore, not divine dictations but evolving commentaries, edited and reinterpreted to reinforce authority and conformity. What we inherited is not a universal truth but a mosaic of human attempts to cage the infinite within the limits of their own understanding.

 

[Yahweh kid]

Jesus gives us a commandment which He calls a *new* commandment. What do you think is mew about it?

It covers all the other commandments.....

 

[EricPH]

One example of it might be small group workshops using spiritual growth materials designed to develop qualities and capacities for service in helping to make the community life in a neighborhood or village healthier, happier and more loving for every person in it.

I believe this is at the very heart of Christianity.

That’s my understanding of the gospel of Jesus in the Bible. When a person sees God in Jesus and is moved by that to want to serve and obey God and learn together with others to live the way He says to live, then they are living the best life they can.

You will never look into the eyes of anyone who does not matter to God, start by looking in the mirror.. If everyone matters to God, then everyone should matter to me.

The greater challenge is to see God in every person we meet, to treat them as if they are Jesus. Starting with the poor, the oppressed, refugees, widows and orphans.

 

[Longfellow]

refugees, widows and orphans.

You look like someone who actually reads the Bible, or you’re getting ideas from someone who does.

 

[Longfellow]

Here's my problem with this statement:

We have nothing brought to us by the Abrahamic god, and nothing that Yeshua himself ever wrote. What we do have is a labyrinth of interpretations, generations of men speculating, moralizing, and philosophizing about how they believe life should be lived, not through divine revelation but through the lens of culture, politics, and personal bias. Each sect, each translation, each council reshaped the myth to suit its time, its rulers, its social needs. What began as tribal mythology became institutional dogma, sanctified opinion masquerading as eternal truth.

These so-called revelations are less messages from heaven and more mirrors reflecting the ambitions of men, men who sought to define morality, control behavior, and dictate purpose. The scriptures are, therefore, not divine dictations but evolving commentaries, edited and reinterpreted to reinforce authority and conformity. What we inherited is not a universal truth but a mosaic of human attempts to cage the infinite within the limits of their own understanding.

Thank you. Sorry for the delay. I won’t try to argue with any of that. I just want to try to explain some things about my way of thinking. I think that the gospels, no matter how much they were written and edited to serve various agendas, and no matter how poorly they have been translated, still contain mostly some lessons that were taught by a spiritual teacher who taught in and between Galilee and Jerusalem near the end of the Second Temple period. He taught with analogies and metaphors. “God” in the Bible is a collection of analogies and metaphors, comparing us and the world around to creations by a person. The way of life that he taught can only be understood by people trying to practice it together in their community life. It needs to be understood in its context, which today requires many, many hours of study and practice, and freeing our minds from all popular thinking not only among Christians but just as much from popular thinking against Christianity and the Bible. The best possibility that I see for that to happen is in small group workshops using spiritual growth materials for Christians. Those would still be promoting misinformation and misunderstandings about the teachings, but I don’t think that would keep anyone from learning from Jesus in the gospels to live the best life they can.

 

[Alif Balaam Yashin]

Thank you. Sorry for the delay. I won’t try to argue with any of that. I just want to try to explain some things about my way of thinking. I think that the gospels, no matter how much they were written and edited to serve various agendas, and no matter how poorly they have been translated, still contain mostly some lessons that were taught by a spiritual teacher who taught in and between Galilee and Jerusalem near the end of the Second Temple period. He taught with analogies and metaphors. “God” in the Bible is a collection of analogies and metaphors, comparing us and the world around to creations by a person. The way of life that he taught can only be understood by people trying to practice it together in their community life. It needs to be understood in its context, which today requires many, many hours of study and practice, and freeing our minds from all popular thinking not only among Christians but just as much from popular thinking against Christianity and the Bible. The best possibility that I see for that to happen is in small group workshops using spiritual growth materials for Christians. Those would still be promoting misinformation and misunderstandings about the teachings, but I don’t think that would keep anyone from learning from Jesus in the gospels to live the best life they can.

Have you read the Jefferson Bible? It might be of interest to you. It does away with the dogma attached and focuses solely on the 'teachings' of Yeshua, almost in a secular format. I'm not convinced Yeshua actually existed, but these extrapolations are worth checking out as they pertain to a loving way for all to exist together.

 

[EricPH]

The way of life that he taught can only be understood by people trying to practice it together in their community life.

I think you have summed up the Bible well. We do things together to try and make our community a kinder and more caring place to live. Starting with the poor, the oppressed, refugees, widows and orphans.

It needs to be understood in its context, which today requires many, many hours of study and practice, and freeing our minds from all popular thinking not only among Christians but just as much from popular thinking against Christianity and the Bible

At the heart of Bible teaching, is the need to do something. My thoughts are to understand the Bible in almost a childlike way, rather than through the eyes of a scholar. If there is a child in your class who is hungry, and you have enough food, then the kind thing to do is share your food. It does not need a scholar to pick out twenty Biblical passages, and write a ten thousand word dissertation on feeding the poor. At the end of the dissertation, you would probably forget to take your lunch with you and share it!

 

[Longfellow]

Have you read the Jefferson Bible? It might be of interest to you. It does away with the dogma attached and focuses solely on the 'teachings' of Yeshua, almost in a secular format. I'm not convinced Yeshua actually existed, but these extrapolations are worth checking out as they pertain to a loving way for all to exist together.

I haven’t read that Bible, but I’ve read about it. I think it’s a mistake to exclude what the stories say about who Jesus is and what he does as part of his teachings. I think that those are an indispensable part of the context for understanding and applying his teachings

 

[Longfellow]

I think you have summed up the Bible well. We do things together to try and make our community a kinder and more caring place to live. Starting with the poor, the oppressed, refugees, widows and orphans.

At the heart of Bible teaching, is the need to do something. My thoughts are to understand the Bible in almost a childlike way, rather than through the eyes of a scholar. If there is a child in your class who is hungry, and you have enough food, then the kind thing to do is share your food. It does not need a scholar to pick out twenty Biblical passages, and write a ten thousand word dissertation on feeding the poor. At the end of the dissertation, you would probably forget to take your lunch with you and share it!

Reducing oppression and the damage from it is part of it, but in my way of thinking it’s much more than that. The whole point and purpose of it is to bring out the best possibilities in people, in society, and in the world around us, for everyone to enjoy.

(later) Or rather, the whole point and purpose is knowing and loving God, but that way of living is part of that.

 

[Thomas]

I think you have summed up the Bible well. We do things together to try and make our community a kinder and more caring place to live. Starting with the poor, the oppressed, refugees, widows and orphans.

Good for you. That was the mission from its foundation.

At the heart of Bible teaching, is the need to do something.

Indeed.

My thoughts are to understand the Bible in almost a childlike way, rather than through the eyes of a scholar.

That's a bit unfair on both children and scholars! And there are some very grown-up lessons to be learned.

But I get your point – the basics are simple.

... It does not need a scholar to pick out twenty Biblical passages, and write a ten thousand word dissertation on feeding the poor. At the end of the dissertation, you would probably forget to take your lunch with you and share it!

OK, I get it, but it does not mean scholars, being scholars, do not 'live the life'. Pope Benedict XVI said "We need more saints and fewer theologians."

I am quite convinced I've met a couple of scholar-saints in my time.

The one who comes to mind here is Fr George Woodall. A degree in History, he went on to study Moral Theology at the Gregorian University in Rome. Then a Doctorate in Canon Law in Strasbourg, which meant he had to learn French to do so, and not conversational French, but legal French for the whole course, whom very few undertake, teaches very complex moral subjects.

A fellow student went to visit him at his parish in Nottingham in the British Midlands. An impoverished parish in one of those post-industrial towns where the industry, the main employers, have gone, and the local economy has collapsed.

The report we got back was of Fr George doing his 'parish rounds' among the despised and the dispossessed, sex workers and their pimps, bottom-of-the-chain drug runners, homeless, alcoholics ... and all the while, people crossing the street just to shake his hand and say hello, because he cared.

 

[EricPH]

The report we got back was of Fr George doing his 'parish rounds' among the despised and the dispossessed, sex workers and their pimps, bottom-of-the-chain drug runners, homeless, alcoholics ... and all the while, people crossing the street just to shake his hand and say hello, because he cared.

Did Fr George need a degree and an understanding of French law, to do what he was doing in Nottingham? My thoughts would be, he just needs a childlike understanding of care and kindness.

My first reply on this thread happened just after listening to a two hour zoom lecture on hope. The rich history of our ancestors, how hope was used and translated from various cultures, all fascinating stuff. The bottom line is, there has to be a childlike practical way to use hope, this might come from future zoom lectures.

 

[Thomas]

Did Fr George need a degree and an understanding of French law, to do what he was doing in Nottingham? My thoughts would be, he just needs a childlike understanding of care and kindness.

I don't dispute that. His degrees, etc., did not make him compassionate and empathetic, he was always that ... but he has skills, and he has a mind, and he put those to work for Christ.

Life is not all about outreach.

I'm not having a go here, I absolutely agree with everything you're saying, and 'ivory tower Christianity' is no good to man nor beast, as the saying goes, and nor to God, either.

I touched on the idea of 'storyworld' in a discussion with @TheLightWithin, and this is relevant here.

... The rich history of our ancestors, how hope was used and translated from various cultures, all fascinating stuff. The bottom line is, there has to be a childlike practical way to use hope ...

I would have thought that 'rich history' was kept alive by scholars?

My son-in-law works with pre-school and early-years children. As part of that, he tells stories. He brings along hats, scarves, and all sorts of silly props. He gets all the children involved, rotating them in and out of the story. Sometimes he tackles issues, sometimes it's a story for its own sake.

It's simple, it's childlike, but there's a lot of learning and wisdom and experience and insight and intelligence that goes into it.

+++

Kids ask the simplest questions: One asked him, "In a fight between Iron Man and Jesus, who would win?" he explained Jesus was all about love. "Yeah," the kids said, "But, if they got in a fight ... "

 

[TheLightWithin]

Kids ask the simplest questions: One asked him, "In a fight between Iron Man and Jesus, who would win?" he explained Jesus was all about love. "Yeah," the kids said, "But, if they got in a fight ... "

"...Jesus would overturn the table and drive him out"

 

[2ndpillar]

I'm not a Christian, but I grew up in a Christian family, I went through confirmation class in a Christian church, I recognize and accept Jesus as my Lord, and I have an intense interest in what the Christian Bible says about Him and His kingdom.

In my understanding of the Christian Bible, part of what it means by "the kingdom" is a way of life that Jesus brought into the world, people learning together as a community to live the way that He says to live. When I say "Jesus," I mean the one in the gospel stories, imagining that person in the gospel stories as a person who was teaching in and between Galilee near the end of the Second Temple period, and not any kind of "historical Jesus," or "Christ spirit." I'm thinking that many people in Capernaum were learning to live that way under His care and guidance, and that kind of learning spread from there into society in all directions. One way that it spread was in communities with leaders approved by the Apostles, and that evolved into Christianity. The way that people enter that kingdom is by seeing God in Jesus and being moved by that to want to serve and obey Him and learn together to live the way He says to live. In my understanding, what they believe and don't believe, and whether or not they are "Christians" by any definition, has nothing to do with it. They could be followers of any religion, or none.


(later) I'm not sure that I know what it means to be saved. I'm thinking that maybe it means being saved from slavery to the sinful side of our nature.

The "kingdom of heaven" narrative is best described in Matthew 13, whereas the narrative is described as being given in parables, whereas the "wicked" (Daniel 12), those without ears to hear, will not understand (Isaiah 6 & Mt 13). It is with regards to two messages, the message of the evil one, the tare seed, the message of lawlessness, best espoused by the false prophet Paul, with regard to his message of the cross, whereas he describes the law being nailed to a cross, whereas the believers in this false message are "saved". versus the message of the son of man, the message of righteousness, whereas the righteous are gathered after the wicked/tares, are thrown into the furnace of fire (Har-Magedon) (Mt 13:30). Being "saved" (Joel 2), are those who "survive" the "day of the LORD", which is in the future. Per Jeremiah 31:30, everyone dies. The only caveat is that according to (Rev 20:4), some will be resurrected from the grave during the millennium.
The "Christians", the "many" of Mt 7, are the followers of the false prophet Paul and his brother the "worthless shepherd" Peter, both two of the "shepherds" of Zech 11, who were taken to "pasture" the "flock"/church, doomed for slaughter.

 

[EricPH]

Kids ask the simplest questions: One asked him, "In a fight between Iron Man and Jesus, who would win?" he explained Jesus was all about love. "Yeah," the kids said, "But, if they got in a fight ... "

If Iron Man was a morally good person, he would have no reason to fight Jesus. If there was a battle here on Earth, Iron man would probably win. But Jesus is not of this world, his kingdom is heaven. If Iron Man wanted the fight in heaven, he would lose.

I would have thought that 'rich history' was kept alive by scholars?

Scholars can write a ten thousand word dissertation, but do they have to act on those words. The world is flooded with knowledge and opinions.

I was out volunteering with the Street Pastors about 3am this morning. We walked in the middle of an angry drunken brawl, searching for a peaceful outcome. No amount of knowledge could help in such a situation, but having a childlike trust in God is a profound help.

 

[RabbiO]

I was out volunteering with the Street Pastors about 3am this morning. We walked in the middle of an angry drunken brawl, searching for a peaceful outcome. No amount of knowledge could help in such a situation......

Perhaps you have a different understanding of what it means to have knowledge or use knowledge, but I would respectfully disagree with your contention.