Truth and Gospel

Thomas

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Few if anyone alive today tends to believe that Alexander of Macedon was in fact a son of Zeus. The point about Alexander is, we can be reasonably confident, based on sources about Alexander, that this is something he really said about himself in public. What we cannot be so certain of, on the other hand, is whether Jesus was actually born of a virgin.

Unlike Alexander, Jesus of Nazareth never made any such claim, in fact he never said much if anything about his childhood.

Paul, our earliest source, says "but when the fullness of time had come God sent forth his Son, coming to be from a woman, coming to be under the Law" (Galatians 4:4) which is not really very helpful. John’s Prologue talks about about the Logos becoming flesh, but nothing about a virginal conception or birth, no nativity. Only Matthew and Luke say anything about a virginal conception and birth – but they don’t have the same tale.

In Matthew, Jesus is conceived and born of a virgin in fulfilment of the oracle of his Septuagint reading of Isaiah 7:14. This is revealed to Joseph in a dream, Mary never says anything in Matthew (1:18-25), while in Luke, the virginal conception and birth is revealed by the Archangel Gabriel to Mary (1:26-38) and not to Joseph.

Both Matthew and Luke agree that Jesus’s virgin birth is connected to his Davidide ancestry. This explains why both gospels are anxious to have Jesus born in Bethlehem, but disagree about why Jesus is born there.

Luke's is the more convoluted story. His chronology is wrong, and scholars find the story problematic, if not absurd, for a number of reasons. Herod died in 4BCE, but Quirinius was not governor until 6CE, ten years later. Luke’s account of the census implies its empire-wide, but there's no record of such in 6CE (and we can be reasonably sure there would be a mention of one). No census required people to return to their ancestral hometowns – that would defeat the whole point of what the census was for. Luke needs Jesus to be born in Bethlehem, even though he knows he’s from Nazareth, and invents a narrative to explain it.

Matthew is more acceptable in saying that Jesus was born when Herod the Great was king, probably between 6-4 BCE. That would put Jesus at the age of around thirty at the start of Pilate’s prefecture. (Even Luke says Herod was king.)

John, composed after Mark, Matthew, and Luke, is unimpressed by the idea that Jesus either was, or needs to have been, from Bethlehem. John actually has Nathanael say "Can there be anything good out of Nazareth?" (1:46) and later challenges the idea of the importance of an earthly origin when Jesus says "I am come down out of heaven" in the Bread of Life discourse (John 6). In this long discourse Jesus affirms himself in the face of his detractors.

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So, two stories about the conception and birth, and they disagree on the details. Matthew’s story of the magi reads like a midrash to make Jesus like Moses, who similarly escapes a murderous king as an infant, goes down to Egypt and then comes back again. Matthew has the Holy Family in Bethlehem only to establish the association between Bethlehem and David; the family relocates to Nazareth after Herod dies.

If Luke tries too hard to get Jesus to Bethlehem, Matthew struggles too much to get Jesus to Nazareth.

It seems more likely, then, that Jesus was born and raised in Nazareth. But could he still be a Davidide?

Who could know? It would have been impossible in the first century CE to demonstrate a clear genealogy over the course of a thousand years that would connect Jesus and David directly. Matthew’s genealogy disagrees with Luke’s, and the lineages are so different as to seem irreconcilable.

One way to do this is to propose that Mary was a descendant of David, and the Lukan genealogy is hers. But both Matthew and Luke’s genealogies are each attributed to Joseph, and in both, Jesus’s virginal birth requires that his relationship to Joseph is effectively one of an adoptive or stepfather. A belief in Mary as a Davidide does not emerge until the second century, in the Protoevangelium of James. This text gives us a lot of how we think about the virginal conception and birth stories, as well as later Mariological traditions that became popular among Christians. It seems a tradition contrived to answer a difficulty felt in the text that Jesus, in his humanity, was not actually a Davidide by the standards of later readers, rather than a historical notation.

Paul, the earliest source, and John, the last, both have higher Christologies than the Synoptics, explicitly describing Jesus’s pre-existence as a divine/angelic/heavenly being alongside God as the explanation for his sonship. That He is the Son of God is a given. They don't need nativity stories, nor a Davidide heritage.

Stories of miraculous conceptions and births for demigods, heroes and divine humans were both widespread and normative in the writings of the Ancients. Matthew and Luke’s belief in the virgin birth makes sense in relation to the literature and landscape of the religious world. In the Hebrew Scriptures such stories are found. In Genesis, Isaac is miraculously conceived and born to Abraham and Sarah in their old age; there’s good reason, reading the Hebrew text, to suspect that in the original version of the story The Lord himself is the father of Isaac.

The angel tells the Matthean Joseph: "texetai huion, kai kaleseis to onoma autou Iēsoun" and the reference is not only to Isaiah 7:14, but also to the Septuagint text of Genesis 17:19: "idou Sarra hē gynē sou texetai sī huion, kai kaleseis to onoma autou Isaak."
The trope recurs in another miraculous birth, Samson’s, when the Angel of The Lord Yhwh tells Samson’s mother, Manoah’s wife, idou sī en gastri hexeis kai texēi huion (LXX Judges 13:3); the only thing missing from the formula at this point is the explicit instruction to name him Shimshon/Samson.

Matthew and Luke’s virgin birth stories disagree with one another on numerous details, but make the same points; that Jesus is Son of David, and Son of God, and that seems ideologically, literarily, and culturally driven rather than historically driven. In that they agree with Paul and John.

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On all of these grounds a historian, doing history, would be inclined to dismiss the virgin birth as a fiction, well before addressing the question of whether a miracle occurred to bring about Jesus’s birth.

But a historian, qua historian, can have nothing to do with miracles, whether possible or not, because they are bound by the limits of 'history' as a discipline. History is about establishing probability, plausibility, and possibility, in orbit around what can be determined from sources. And whether miracles are possible or not – which is a philosophical and theological question – is separate from whether they have actually occurred.

History can’t decide if miracles do or don’t happen, its jurisdiction ends there, it runs out of competence to adjudicate data.

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In saying the virgin birth is theology, not history, is not an evasion, nor is it saying whether or not it "really happened." Simply that we cannot treat history’s word as final in all instances. We cannot, however, confuse theological claims for historical ones, as though demonstrating something as theologically or philosophically true is the same as establishing its historical veracity, that is to misunderstand the relationship of these modes of discourse.

In evaluating the virgin birth, we should look beyond the question of whether or not it happened – because we can't answer that question either way.

What we can do is follow the story as it evolves in the Early Christian centuries – Matthew and Luke are harmonised, read alongside John’s Logos Christology, and with apocryphal versions like the Protoevangelium, the virgin birth comes to represent more than just itself, but also the mystery of the Incarnation, and on through the Nicene and Chalcedonian transformations of its dogma, the Christmas story becomes an icon of God’s unification of humanity with divinity by assumption, and therefore of the possibility of humanity becoming divine.

It says simply, mythologically, a truth too profound to be easily put into words.

And in the end, the point of Christmas, as Meister Eckhart saw, is less history and more the mystery of deification itself: if one is stuck on how Christ was born in the past, one can’t progress to how Christ is born now, in you and me, in the eternal dance of creation, and in the miraculous birth of the divine in the human soul.

I, for myself, believe that, and because I believe that, the Virgin Birth becomes a reality to and for me.
 
Regarding the record of miracles in the Gospels, I am inclined to the Johannine interpretation. They are 'signs' (he records seven); they carry little weight in themselves, their significance is what they say about Jesus. Personally, I don’t find the performance of miracles compelling – my faith doesn't depend on them, and Christian doctrine doesn't derive from them.

(The Resurrection is a different order of thing altogether.)

As a monistic nondualist, I believe in that which we call God as the First Cause and Prime Mover. As God is One. I do not regard the cosmos as existing in a bubble, in some sense apart from its creator, rather I regard it as a theophany. God can do miracles if God wants to, but that’s not saying that God actually does. On the other hand I regard contemporary physicalism as a form of fundamentalism.

By Jesus's day, most of the Jewish literature that features miracles and wonders – the direct intervention of God in human affairs – sets them in Israel’s distant past. Like their Greek and Roman counterparts, the ancient Jewish reader would likely have felt that this stuff happened ‘back then’, that God doesn’t do those kinds of things anymore. Now there is a hierarchy of being and beings, with God sitting in the heavens, and various powers and principalities at play here below.

Nor should we assume that the miracle stories in the Gospels were taken at face value by their ancient readers. That clearly was not the point of including them. The Gospels were written in a time when the genres had not solidified into distinct and definite categories they are today – then the reading was more fluid. Mythology was there to convey meaning, and the ancient reader would have read such accounts in that light.

As to the point of miracles – take two examples of the same thing in Mark, the healing of a blind man, in chapters 8 and 10. In the first (8:22-26), Jesus rather stumbles along and has to perform a theurgic or magical operation, not once but twice, to achieve the desired result. Two chapters later, he restores sight to Bartimaeus simply by saying so (10:46-52). Between these two, essentially the same miracle, a lot of has happened.

The catalyst is Jesus asking: "Whom do men say that I am?" (8:27) and Peter’s confession "Thou art the Christ" (Mark 8:29, Matthew 16:16, Luke 9:20). "And he began to teach them" (9:31) – and what follows is an extended sequence, a series of predictions of his passion, death and resurrection. Midway between the two miracles occurs the momentous event on Mount Tabor, his Transfiguration.

The miracle frames Mark's point, of shifting the mentality of the reader away from their assumptions about assumed messianic identity, towards a vision of who and what Jesus is.

Look at the first miracle:
"And taking the blind man's hands he led him away outside the village, and spitting in his eyes he laid hands upon him and inquired of him: "Do you see anything?" And looking up he said,"I see men, such that it is as I perceive trees walking about." Then he again laid hands upon his eyes, and he stared hard, and he was restored, and he saw everything clearly."

Now look at the second:
"Jesus said, "What do you will that I might do for you?" And the blind man said to him, "Rabboni, that I might see again." And Jesus said to him, "Go, your faith has healed you." And immediately he saw again."

The miracles are vessels of meaning about who Jesus is, rather than accounts of what he does – their role in the Gospels is theology, not history.

There is, without doubt, a solid historical tradition of Jesus as exorcist and healer, and this grounds the miracles attributed to him. Whether these miracles attributed to Jesus by the early tradition, expanded by the later authors, represent some real preternatural capacity of the historical Jesus – or whether they are no more than fictive devices, pointing to a truth of which a contemporary physicalist ideology is insensitive to and incapable of reading—is a decision of faith.
 
Regarding the record of miracles in the Gospels, I am inclined to the Johannine interpretation. They are 'signs' (he records seven); they carry little weight in themselves, their significance is what they say about Jesus. Personally, I don’t find the performance of miracles compelling – my faith doesn't depend on them, and Christian doctrine doesn't derive from them.

(The Resurrection is a different order of thing altogether.)

As a monistic nondualist, I believe in that which we call God as the First Cause and Prime Mover. As God is One. I do not regard the cosmos as existing in a bubble, in some sense apart from its creator, rather I regard it as a theophany. God can do miracles if God wants to, but that’s not saying that God actually does. On the other hand I regard contemporary physicalism as a form of fundamentalism.

By Jesus's day, most of the Jewish literature that features miracles and wonders – the direct intervention of God in human affairs – sets them in Israel’s distant past. Like their Greek and Roman counterparts, the ancient Jewish reader would likely have felt that this stuff happened ‘back then’, that God doesn’t do those kinds of things anymore. Now there is a hierarchy of being and beings, with God sitting in the heavens, and various powers and principalities at play here below.

Nor should we assume that the miracle stories in the Gospels were taken at face value by their ancient readers. That clearly was not the point of including them. The Gospels were written in a time when the genres had not solidified into distinct and definite categories they are today – then the reading was more fluid. Mythology was there to convey meaning, and the ancient reader would have read such accounts in that light.

As to the point of miracles – take two examples of the same thing in Mark, the healing of a blind man, in chapters 8 and 10. In the first (8:22-26), Jesus rather stumbles along and has to perform a theurgic or magical operation, not once but twice, to achieve the desired result. Two chapters later, he restores sight to Bartimaeus simply by saying so (10:46-52). Between these two, essentially the same miracle, a lot of has happened.

The catalyst is Jesus asking: "Whom do men say that I am?" (8:27) and Peter’s confession "Thou art the Christ" (Mark 8:29, Matthew 16:16, Luke 9:20). "And he began to teach them" (9:31) – and what follows is an extended sequence, a series of predictions of his passion, death and resurrection. Midway between the two miracles occurs the momentous event on Mount Tabor, his Transfiguration.

The miracle frames Mark's point, of shifting the mentality of the reader away from their assumptions about assumed messianic identity, towards a vision of who and what Jesus is.

Look at the first miracle:
"And taking the blind man's hands he led him away outside the village, and spitting in his eyes he laid hands upon him and inquired of him: "Do you see anything?" And looking up he said,"I see men, such that it is as I perceive trees walking about." Then he again laid hands upon his eyes, and he stared hard, and he was restored, and he saw everything clearly."

Now look at the second:
"Jesus said, "What do you will that I might do for you?" And the blind man said to him, "Rabboni, that I might see again." And Jesus said to him, "Go, your faith has healed you." And immediately he saw again."

The miracles are vessels of meaning about who Jesus is, rather than accounts of what he does – their role in the Gospels is theology, not history.

There is, without doubt, a solid historical tradition of Jesus as exorcist and healer, and this grounds the miracles attributed to him. Whether these miracles attributed to Jesus by the early tradition, expanded by the later authors, represent some real preternatural capacity of the historical Jesus – or whether they are no more than fictive devices, pointing to a truth of which a contemporary physicalist ideology is insensitive to and incapable of reading—is a decision of faith.
I'm like you, I think it's foolish to think that the miracles could not have happened, but that doesn't mean that they *did* happen.
 
Well.. not that you will believe it but my son prayed and a tornado stopped dead within a mile of our house? Saw it for myself. As far as the size of miracles.. really? My mom contracted hepititis from a bad blood transfusion she was on the death ward at an AFB hospital my dad was told she wouldnt live through the night.. her skin was yellow her eyes were yellow her organs were failing.. a miracle happened and she went home 3 days later with drs scratching their heads .. is that big enough?
 
.. is that big enough?
For me, the size of the miracle is unimportant ... it's the fact that so many happen, and so many little evidences abound in peoples' experiences, that a hard-and-fast belief in a mechanistic universe ceases to be entirely plausible ... and that's just miracles. Factor in other 'paranormal' events and at the very least 'an open mind' would not be considered unreasonable.
 
Unlike Alexander, Jesus of Nazareth never made any such claim, in fact he never said much if anything about his childhood.
Here is exactly where we are lacking....the total amount of words (red letter bibles) attributed to Jesus in the Bible and harmonizing the gospels is only like 32,000 words...in total... as the story goes he only preached for 3 years...but that is the same amount of words as Charlotte's Web!

The average person today will speak that much in two days, the average preacher burn that up in ten sermons...

We have ZERO clue what Jesus said about his youth...we only know what was purported to have been said and that is very little.
 
Here is exactly where we are lacking....
Is it ...

the total amount of words (red letter bibles) attributed to Jesus in the Bible and harmonizing the gospels is only like 32,000 words...in total... as the story goes he only preached for 3 years...but that is the same amount of words as Charlotte's Web!
How many red letter words of Charlotte in the book? See, false comparison.

Jesus' words are in the context of the New Testament, and that is some 179,000 words, give or take.

The Lotus Sutra is about 90,000 words.

The Tao Te Ching is about 5,000 characters – in translation somewhere between 4,000 - 48,000 words.

The Noble Quran is about 77,000 Arabic words, translations can easily double that.

Plato's Republic is between 130,000-220,000 in translation. Plotinus's The Enneads is about 172,000

The Declaration of Independence is somewhere over a thousand.

It's quality ... not quantity.

Context, bro! Context!
 
Here is exactly where we are lacking... We have ZERO clue what Jesus said about his youth...
Yes, I know that, everyone knows that ... that's basically what I'm saying ...

we only know what was purported to have been said and that is very little.
And what is purported to have been said?

Three accounts, nothing by Paul except that he was born, same by John. Matthew's and Luke's accounts contradict each other, and the only other is the Protoveangelium of James, which clearly worked over the Synoptics, with some frankly outrageous elements ...

So we have no idea of what Jesus was up to before he began his ministry ... and the point rather is, it's not relevant.

Thus, like Hart, I quite like the way Mark has, at the start, a herald (John the Baptist) and Jesus enters, then at the end has Jesus gone, and a herald.
 
I picked up a comment from our esteemed @iBrian, and thought it relevant here.

Tacitus recounts how Vespasian performed miracles in Alexandria before continuing on to Rome to officially become Emperor. :)

In 66CE Vespasian was sent to Judea by Nero to crush a Jewish revolt. In 68CE Nero died, and four contenders emerged in pursuit of the laurel. Two died early on, leaving Vitellius and Vespasian, then governor of Judea. Vespasian defeated and executed Vitellius in the December of that year.

Vespasian very cleverly kept an arm's length from the conflict, remaining in Egypt while his chosen lieutenants were burning Rome and massacring any opposition. Suetonius stated: "My research shows that no innocent party was ever punished during Vespasian’s reign except behind his back or while he was absent from Rome" (The Twelve Caesars, Divus Vespasian, section 15).

A claim to divinity by an emperor was nothing new. Romulus had set the template, and Julius (Caesar), Augustus and Claudius had all been posthumously recognised as elevated to the heavens, and their descendants touted their divine lineage for political gain.

Tacitus, Suetonius and Cassius Dio all mention two instances of miraculous healings that Vespasian allegedly performed. Said to occur in Alexandria 70CE, two men approached then-Emperor Vespasian. One was blind and the other had a crippled hand. They announced that the god Serapis had appeared to them and had proclaimed Vespasian possessed the power to heal their disabilities. Serapis also instructed how the cures should be effected. Vespasian was to spit in the blind man's eye, and step on the other's hand. The emperor was apparently bashful about attempting the healing, yet his court convinced him to try. Vespasian spat into the blind man’s eye, and, to everyone’s amazement, the man exclaimed that he could see again. The emperor then stepped upon the other man’s hand, which, after being stepped on, immediately began to work perfectly.

Suetonius, Cassius Dio and Tacitus allow some benefit of doubt. Tacitus offered a natural explanation – Vespasian’s spittle had cleared an obstruction in the blind man’s eye, and by stepping on the other's hand, the pressure corrected dislocated joints.

The story spread and apparently became the talk of the empire. Tacitus wrote: “The hand was instantly restored to use, and the day again shone for the blind man. Both facts are told by eye-witnesses even now when falsehood brings no reward” (The Histories, Book IV, section 81).

Having been Prefect of Judea, Vespasian asserted his claim to divinity was a fulfilment of biblical messianic prophecy. Theories linking Vespasian to Jewish oracles appeared in Suetonius: "An ancient superstition was current in the east that out of Judea would come the rulers of the world. This prediction, as it later proved, referred to the Roman emperors, but the Jews, who read it as referring to themselves, rebelled" (Divus Vespasian, section 4).

Tacitus stated: "This mysterious prophecy had in reality pointed to Vespasian and Titus (his son and successor in Judea, who saw through the destruction of Jerusalem), but the common people, as is the way of human ambition, interpreted these great destinies in their own favour, and could not be turned to the truth even by adversity" (The Histories, Book V, section 13).

Even Josephus: "But now what did the most elevate them in undertaking this war, was an ambiguous oracle, that was also found in their sacred writings; how "About that time one, from their country, should become governor of the habitable earth." The Jews took this prediction to belong to themselves in particular: and many of the wise men were thereby deceived in their determination. Now this oracle certainly denoted the government of Vespasian: who was appointed emperor in Judea. However, it is not possible for men to avoid fate: although they see it beforehand. But these men interpreted some of these signals according to their own pleasure; and some of them they utterly despised: until their madness was demonstrated, both by the taking of their city, and their own destruction." (Jewish War, Book VI, chapter 5).

Interesting then, that it may well be that by 70CE stories of Jesus' healings were abroad and picked up and utilised by the authorities as part of Vespasian's PR machine to affirm his status and thus underpin his claim to emperorship. Prior to Vespasian, no emperor claimed divine status in his own lifetime, but were recognised and elevated after their deaths, so no emperor was the source of miracles, per se.

(Marcus Aurelius was attributed two miracles – one in which rain eased the thirst of his soldiers in the midst of a battle, and another when lightning struck the enemy (171CE)...)

On balance, we have an emperor performing miracles, which is a one-off both for him and for emperors generally, while Jesus stands in a line of prophets and wonder-workers among the Jews.

That's not to say Vespasian did, that Jesus didn't, or that the evangelist heard of Vespasian's miracle and utilised it ... difficult to say because such miracles were ubiquitous in the Ancient World.

Ehrman has a discussion here, and he favours the 'Vespasian copied the Christians' solution.

The other factor is that Paul mentions the working of miracles as a sign of the power of the Holy Spirit, and he was writing a decade before Vespasian is supposed to have effected his own.

And again I draw reference to the 'spitting in the eye' – this was not uncommon in ancient 'magical' practices, but the point is Vespasian does it, whereas Jesus has left that necessity behind.
 
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Interesting then, that it may well be that by 70CE stories of Jesus' healings were abroad and picked up and utilised by the authorities as part of Vespasian's PR machine to affirm his status and thus underpin his claim to emperorship.
Interesting - I never saw that connection before. I took it as an example of miracles being regarded as more ordinary and commonplace in the ancient world. Or, at least, that great figures could demonstrate their greatness through such acts.

I have a feeling that miracles may have been attributed to Alexander of Macedon, but any reference escapes me, and his biographies are so spread through time they could easily reflect the cultural mindset of the writer, rather than acts considered the norm for Alexander's time.
 
The Tao Te Ching is about 5,000 characters – in translation somewhere between 4,000 - 48,000 words.
WHOA that's a huge spread of numbers? 4,000-48,000? Do you know why the difference in word numbers is so vast in translations? Is there a good reason some translators use 12x as many words to translate the 5000 characters as other translators do?
 
So we have no idea of what Jesus was up to before he began his ministry ... and the point rather is, it's not relevant.
I would imagine though that some people are incredibly curious about what Jesus may have been like as a person, and as a kid. There is theology in some contemporary denominations that refer to having a personal relationship with Jesus - Arminian-Wesleyan Holiness traditions I think - as part of sanctification... You can imagine people wanting to get to know everything about him.

It really does seem like knowing as much as you could about him before his ministry could be extremely helpful contextually, and certainly help with the sanctification theology which involves developing a personal relationship with Jesus.

Example: When I was a teenager, I sometimes went to a bible study at a nearby Wesleyan Methodist church. I really tried to understand their theology, and hoped to figure out how to agree with it, because it seemed so important to so many people in the world, and I was also trying to consider ideas that were different than what I learned at home. It seemed like it would help make sense of Jesus and his ideas, teachings, and opinions, and to accomplish this to find out as much as possible about what he was like, because everything seemed to rest on that. Thus, I wondered how to know more about Jesus' personality. (it wasn't until years later I learned anything about historical or cultural context, or translation, they didn't mention it)

Sometimes people talked about knowing Jesus. They seemed to feel very strongly about it, but they didn't explain. I could tell that asking more than a few questions about it was intrusive to something private. Like prying too much into anyone's relationship with someone else, made sense in a way. So, in solitary reflection, I then thought that getting to know Jesus might have something in common with what it is like to get to know regular people, how you slowly learn about their personal history. With living people you just listen as you talk back in forth, they tell you new things, etc but with someone from history you read biographies.

Is that why, somewhat later on, the Infancy Gospels were written? To satisfy such questions that people in churches may have had about Jesus as a person? Or is there more to the Infancy Gospels - are they actually after all based on tradition and knowledge that has some connection to the source (early life of Jesus)
 
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WHOA that's a huge spread of numbers? 4,000-48,000? Do you know why the difference in word numbers is so vast in translations? Is there a good reason some translators use 12x as many words to translate the 5000 characters as other translators do?
Don't know ...
 
I would imagine though that some people are incredibly curious about what Jesus may have been like as a person, and as a kid.
For sure.

It really does seem like knowing as much as you could about him before his ministry could be extremely helpful contextually, and certainly help with the sanctification theology which involves developing a personal relationship with Jesus.
I would have thought 'personal relation' was a fundamental of every denomination?

The God of the Bible is a Personal God.

Is that why, somewhat later on, the Infancy Gospels were written? To satisfy such questions that people in churches may have had about Jesus as a person?
Yes.

Or is there more to the Infancy Gospels - are they actually after all based on tradition and knowledge that has some connection to the source (early life of Jesus)
Not as far as we know.

This is why the Fathers dismissed the infancy gospels as apocryphal. Their first question always is, what's the lineage, the heritage, of the text? has anyone mentioned it?

The Infancy Gospel of Thomas is dated to mid-late 2nd century, although it's anonymous, and the 'Thomas' was added much later.

The Infancy Gospel of Matthew was written in the 9th century!

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Having said that, there's interest from scholars in these materials, as they're a window into the world.

The Holy Family in Matthew/Luke are presented as an ideal.

In the apocryphal Infancy accounts – (I've picked this up from a quick dive into commentaries, so nothing in depth or necessarily bankable here) – there's an element of disorder, even chaos, as this wonder-working child who turns clay birds into living creatures is also inclined to kill anyone who pisses him off. (Later, he puts it all right.) In between are made attempts at 'education', to get him back on 'righteous rails', as it were, but in each case Jesus educates the educator.

Mary and Joseph are tested. In Luke, when Mary and Joseph find Jesus in the temple, he says: "How is it that you sought me? did you not know, that I must be about my father's business?" (Luke 2:49). So how do you take that from a kid.
(A lecturer pointed out that the man is the master in his house, but Joseph is silent. It's Mary who asks "what the hell?" cos Joseph really doesn't know how to handle Jesus, whereas Mary does.

(John has her berate him at the wedding at Cana, Jesus tells his mum to mind her own business, she tells the servants to do what he tells them, and dare I say she gives her son a look in the eye that says 'Fix this!' before she walks off.)

There could be some hint here of the struggles of the believing Christian in a hostile world. The Christian life, although not under constant persecution, lives with it as a possibility, and there are outbreaks. We might also assume, therefore, that a kind of low-level hostility goes on, as well as a low-level acceptance.

These infancy narratives could be a metaphor addressing the struggles of the Christian in the face of adversity – that Joseph and Mary didn't have it easy, either. In fact their lot was harder than yours, so take heart, be strong, and stand by your faith ...

... of course, they could also be a way of earning a few coppers from a gullible public.
 
WHOA that's a huge spread of numbers? 4,000-48,000? Do you know why the difference in word numbers is so vast in translations? Is there a good reason some translators use 12x as many words to translate the 5000 characters as other translators do?
The ones with 48,000 words might include line-by-line commentary, multiple interpretations, annotations and footnotes, and appendices
 
For sure.


I would have thought 'personal relation' was a fundamental of every denomination?

The God of the Bible is a Personal God.


Yes.


Not as far as we know.

This is why the Fathers dismissed the infancy gospels as apocryphal. Their first question always is, what's the lineage, the heritage, of the text? has anyone mentioned it?

The Infancy Gospel of Thomas is dated to mid-late 2nd century, although it's anonymous, and the 'Thomas' was added much later.

The Infancy Gospel of Matthew was written in the 9th century!

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Having said that, there's interest from scholars in these materials, as they're a window into the world.

The Holy Family in Matthew/Luke are presented as an ideal.

In the apocryphal Infancy accounts – (I've picked this up from a quick dive into commentaries, so nothing in depth or necessarily bankable here) – there's an element of disorder, even chaos, as this wonder-working child who turns clay birds into living creatures is also inclined to kill anyone who pisses him off. (Later, he puts it all right.) In between are made attempts at 'education', to get him back on 'righteous rails', as it were, but in each case Jesus educates the educator.

Mary and Joseph are tested. In Luke, when Mary and Joseph find Jesus in the temple, he says: "How is it that you sought me? did you not know, that I must be about my father's business?" (Luke 2:49). So how do you take that from a kid.
(A lecturer pointed out that the man is the master in his house, but Joseph is silent. It's Mary who asks "what the hell?" cos Joseph really doesn't know how to handle Jesus, whereas Mary does.

(John has her berate him at the wedding at Cana, Jesus tells his mum to mind her own business, she tells the servants to do what he tells them, and dare I say she gives her son a look in the eye that says 'Fix this!' before she walks off.)

There could be some hint here of the struggles of the believing Christian in a hostile world. The Christian life, although not under constant persecution, lives with it as a possibility, and there are outbreaks. We might also assume, therefore, that a kind of low-level hostility goes on, as well as a low-level acceptance.

These infancy narratives could be a metaphor addressing the struggles of the Christian in the face of adversity – that Joseph and Mary didn't have it easy, either. In fact their lot was harder than yours, so take heart, be strong, and stand by your faith ...

... of course, they could also be a way of earning a few coppers from a gullible public.
I see deeper meaning in those two stories. The story of the wine was His first miracle and started off His ministry. This one tells me that she changed His mind.. that was not when He was supposed to start. This is not the first time God's mind has been changed in Scripture.

As far as the temple experience it shows a mother's worry for her child... maybe Joseph wasn't worried or it wasn't elegant to the message.
 
..this wonder-working child who turns clay birds into living creatures..
Mmm .. Muslims believe that Jesus performed many miracles (with G-d's permission/decree) as
a young man and also as a child.

45 (And remember) when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! G-d giveth thee glad tidings of a word from him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near (unto G-d).
46 He will speak unto mankind in his cradle and in his manhood, and he is of the righteous.
47 She said: My Lord! How can I have a child when no mortal hath touched me ? He said: So (it will be). G-d createth what He will. If He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is.
48 And He will teach him the Scripture and wisdom, and the Torah and the Gospel,

- - - - - - -
49 And will make him a messenger unto the Children of Israel, (saying): Lo! I come unto you with a sign from your Lord. Lo! I fashion for you out of clay the likeness of a bird, and I breathe into it and it is a bird, by G-d's leave. I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I raise the dead, by G-d's leave. And I announce unto you what ye eat and what ye store up in your houses. Lo! herein verily is a portent for you, if ye are to be believers.
50 And (I come) confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you. I come unto you with a sign from your Lord, so keep your duty to G-d and obey me.
51 Lo! G-d is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a straight path.
52 But when Jesus became conscious of their disbelief, he cried: Who will be my helpers in the cause of G-d ? The disciples said: We will be G-d's helpers. We believe in G-d, and bear thou witness that we have surrendered (unto Him).

-Qur'an Al-Imran: The Family Of Imran-
 
Mmm .. Muslims believe that Jesus performed many miracles (with G-d's permission/decree) as
a young man and also as a child.

45 (And remember) when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! G-d giveth thee glad tidings of a word from him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near (unto G-d).
46 He will speak unto mankind in his cradle and in his manhood, and he is of the righteous.
47 She said: My Lord! How can I have a child when no mortal hath touched me ? He said: So (it will be). G-d createth what He will. If He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is.
48 And He will teach him the Scripture and wisdom, and the Torah and the Gospel,

- - - - - - -
49 And will make him a messenger unto the Children of Israel, (saying): Lo! I come unto you with a sign from your Lord. Lo! I fashion for you out of clay the likeness of a bird, and I breathe into it and it is a bird, by G-d's leave. I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I raise the dead, by G-d's leave. And I announce unto you what ye eat and what ye store up in your houses. Lo! herein verily is a portent for you, if ye are to be believers.
50 And (I come) confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you. I come unto you with a sign from your Lord, so keep your duty to G-d and obey me.
51 Lo! G-d is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a straight path.
52 But when Jesus became conscious of their disbelief, he cried: Who will be my helpers in the cause of G-d ? The disciples said: We will be G-d's helpers. We believe in G-d, and bear thou witness that we have surrendered (unto Him).

-Qur'an Al-Imran: The Family Of Imran-
So that's where the bird story came from! Thanks!
 
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