Do we have a spirit and, if so, what role does it play in our relationship with God?

[Aupmanyav]

"Do we have a spitit, and if so, what rule does it play in our relationship with God?"

Two suppositions here" Spirit (soul) and God.
I just wake up from sleep, nothing enters me.

"The believer is alive in both worlds."
Welcome back, Tony. One can believe to be alive in a thousand worlds. Belief has no limits, and may not relate to facts.

".. and “assignment” on earth which comes with the package .."
That there is an assignment is a belief and not a proven fact.

"Busy not thyself with this world .."
If not with this world, then which one? What is the evidence for the other world?

 

[otherbrother]

And if not growing wiser, burden himself and other be-ings on.
What did he bring along?

Thanks for joining the discussion. I really liked this comment you made. We take being for granted, assuming it is merely an end product, as opposed to seeing it as a means to fulfill a greater purpose. But even when we try to fulfill a greater purpose we often get too passionate, then too busy and operate only out of action instead of out of the integrity of being (beingness?)

 

[Dhammañāṇa Bhikkhu]

and operate only

Operate, act, for the sake of becoming or not-becoming. Act toward integrity and refined integrity forms the way out of the circle of birth, aging, sickness and death. Focus only on the quality of actions does the way, instead of this or that objectification.

 

[otherbrother]

"Do we have a spitit, and if so, what rule does it play in our relationship with God?"

Two suppositions here" Spirit (soul) and God.
I just wake up from sleep, nothing enters me.

"The believer is alive in both worlds."
Welcome back, Tony. One can believe to be alive in a thousand worlds. Belief has no limits, and may not relate to facts.

".. and “assignment” on earth which comes with the package .."
That there is an assignment is a belief and not a proven fact.

"Busy not thyself with this world .."
If not with this world, then which one? What is the evidence for the other world?

Thanks for joining the discussion. I really liked the comment you made about bringing wisdom into the world. We take being for granted, assuming it is merely an end product, as opposed to seeing it as a means to fulfill a greater purpose, such as growing wisdom for self and others. But even when we try to fulfill a greater purpose we often get too passionate, too “hungry,” allowing it to make us too busy and to try too hard. We end up operating too much out of action instead of out of the integrity and groundedness of being (beingness?).
Intentional being is like deciding to drive one’s being like a car, but this can only be done effectively if one’s being is fully appreciated (as a gift or object of reverence or by other spiritual means) first and throughout whatever purposeful action is attempted. This requires consciousness of being. Consciousness must be the driver, NOT ACTION, because action (“doing”) that exceeds consciousness of being ends up fragmenting one’s being.
This skill of driving being as a vehicle for spiritual growth or other worthwhile purposes is analogous to maintaining a good aerobic base when running, not neglecting to develop and maintain the base and then not exceeding it by running too anaerobically. The lactic acid that builds up when you become anaerobic is analogous to the fragmentation that “doing” can do to well-being. But if one remains receptive of and conscious of one’s being and protecting it as he or she is living, then any purposeful actions enhance rather than fragment one’s being.
If you value growth you must take care of your wellbeing. Otherwise the growth would not be sustainable. And non sustainable growth is not really “growth.” It can even be like a cancer that consumes one’s very being.
I love how you introduced the concept of purpose into this discussion. Are we giving back to life in any meaningful way? That’s something we should often ask ourselves. As long as we protect our wellbeing from overly harsh criticism. We can’t be too hard on ourselves. If we maintain being as a base for doing, we won’t be too hard on ourselves. Intentional being is kind and forgiving of itself. And any person who masters or even approximates this skill or habit tends to be kind and forgiving to others also.
If a person tries too hard to love others but doesn’t maintain his or her own wellbeing, then the love will become like an action that fragments one’s on being and possibly the being of the loved-one. I associate the emotion “peace” with what I am calling “being” (as in Ram Dass’s Be Here Now). I agree with another participant (in other previous threads) that peace is more important than love, because it is a foundation for love.

 

[otherbrother]

That there is an assignment is a belief and not a proven fact.

Very true, but it works for me by getting me to look for purpose. I actually borrowed that belief from New Age beliefs someone shared with me. That one’s spirit accepted an assignment as a prerequisite for incarceration.

 

[otherbrother]

Operate, act, for the sake of becoming or not-becoming. Act toward integrity and refined integrity forms the way out of the circle of birth, aging, sickness and death. Focus only on the quality of actions does the way, instead of this or that objectification.

We seem on the same wavelength here. Loved your advice to “focus only on the quality of actions.” This fits well with my notion that we must develop a consciousness about being if we are to fully be. The “driver” of being must be consciousness. Not action.
So if I follow your advice, I do allow consciousness to guide my actions and to help them align with my wellbeing (and “becoming”) and possibly with the wellbeing and becoming of others.

 

[otherbrother]

Two suppositions here" Spirit (soul) and God.
I just wake up from sleep, nothing enters me.

Yes, suppositions. And another supposition I have is that spirit is rooted in the so-called “other side” that probably is a more interactive and “entangled” (and I believe DEEPER) part of overall reality. I believe “soul” is rooted on this physical “side” but is a gateway or dock for an individual spirit. Other “spirits” may be more collective, like the “Holy Spirit.” The individual spirit would be a gateway or interface between a collective spirit and an individual’s bodily-attached soul. And perhaps the collective spirit can bypass the individual spirit at times? As you say, all suppositions. I choose the beliefs that seem to work best for my wellbeing, growth, and wellbeing of others. We are all working with suppositions I suppose! Choose wisely.

 

[Dhammañāṇa Bhikkhu]

We seem on the same wavelength here. Loved your advice to “focus only on the quality of actions.” This fits well with my notion that we must develop a consciousness about being if we are to fully be. The “driver” of being must be consciousness. Not action.
So if I follow your advice, I do allow consciousness to guide my actions and to help them align with my wellbeing (and “becoming”) and possibly with the wellbeing and becoming of others.

There are six kinds of being aware, conscious, good householder: eye-consciousness, ear-, tongue, nose, body, intellect. Arising, becoming, on deeds, result of actions, and aren't for sure, no refuge. Again, by "simply" focus on the qualities of intention as root of actions, in right way (skillful, harmless: renouncing, harmless, non-conflicting), there related fruits, experience, "being" comes along by it's cause (previous and present deed). And there is even a pattern of deeds leading to an and of deeds (burden, food).

Of course skillful means neither harming others nor oneself.

There are the ten skillful actions: Cunda Kammaraputta Sutta: To Cunda the Silversmith leading to heavens and even beyond.

 

[otherbrother]

There is a lot on this topic in the Baha'i Writings, if you are interested I am happy to share more. I offer the following.

The question asked in your post, "Could we get to know our individual spirit as a means of better connecting with God"? is to me the fundamental purpose of our existence, as knowing one's own true self, is our given task.

This link

Commentary on "He who knoweth his self hath known his Lord."​

This is a "Commentary on `He who hath known his self hath known his Lord'" (from Julian Cole website) which was written by Bahá'u'lláh in Edirne, and was addressed to Mirza Hadi Qazvini. It treats briefly a number of key questions in Islamic mysticism, including the meaning of detachment; the meaning of the Saying about knowing one's self; the meaning of Return; and the meaning of another Saying, "The believer is alive in both worlds."

There is so much on the topic of our soul, that there is many things we can share.

Dreaming is one of the bounties given of God to show us we are more than flesh, it is in fact another world of God, that is wrapped up in this world! Flying dreams are a great spiritual bounty.

Worlds of God

All the best and Regards Tony.

From the writing in the Worlds of God link:
“It would be true if thou wert to contend that this same world is, as decreed by the All-Glorious and Almighty God, within thy proper self and is wrapped up within thee. It would equally be true to maintain that thy spirit, having transcended the limitations of sleep and having stripped itself of all earthly attachment, hath, by the act of God, been made to traverse a realm which lieth hidden in the innermost reality of this world.”

I like “within thy proper self and is wrapped up within the.”
and “having stripped itself of all earthly attachment”
and “been made to traverse a realm
which lieth hidden in the innermost reality of this world.”

I agree that our spirit is by probably going very deep while it is perceived as rising up out of our bodies as we sleep/dream. Perhaps sense of rising up is a projection of going deep? The so-called “astral plane is probably deep within us in a highly convergent, entangled, part of overall reality. And the deeper we go, the more it resembles Mind Itself. Or more accurately our minds are the closest match to that which is there, God. The word “exists” means to stand out. Technically speaking, God does not stand out, does not exist. Rather, God rests in, “insists (?)”

 

[otherbrother]

What does good householder mean by "spirit"? If asking whether is "be-ing", pleasing, unpleasing, is a matter of a creator, or accidently, or determined... no. What ever good householder meets, pleasure, pain, is a matter of his past and present choices.

And of course, what ever gained amount the senses, will decay again.


How does it come that good householder, as desire for be-ing (which means eating, consuming) could bring something good for others? He used to desire to become and be again, consume on. And if not growing wiser, burden himself and other be-ings on.
What did he bring along? So seeing debts and the burden of them, it's good to use gained to work for getting ride of desire of be-ing (and it's natural opposite desire of not being).

Desire of being seems different than just being. The latter involves acceptance more than desire. A person desires to have something. Just being is more like a verb. Not desiring to have it like a noun-like thing. Simply willing to be. Being as a verb.

 

[otherbrother]

There are six kinds of being aware, conscious, good householder: eye-consciousness, ear-, tongue, nose, body, intellect. Arising, becoming, on deeds, result of actions, and aren't for sure, no refuge. Again, by "simply" focus on the qualities of intention as root of actions, in right way (skillful, harmless: renouncing, harmless, non-conflicting), there related fruits, experience, "being" comes along by it's cause (previous and present deed). And there is even a pattern of deeds leading to an and of deeds (burden, food).

Of course skillful means neither harming others nor oneself.

There are the ten skillful actions: Cunda Kammaraputta Sutta: To Cunda the Silversmith leading to heavens and even beyond.

I like “skillful means”. I see being, allowing yourself to be, as a base for subsequent actions, as a skillful means to right action. If you accept your being you are free to “give with a glad heart” (Jesus). I do agree that we must accept the possibility (and eventual actuality) of not being as well.

 

[otherbrother]

I like “skillful means”. I see being, allowing yourself to be, as a base for subsequent actions, as a skillful means to right action. If you accept your being you are free to “give with a glad heart” (Jesus). I do agree that we must accept the possibility (and eventual actuality) of not being as well.

It’s okay to be. It’s okay not to be. But since I am, I’ll go ahead and use my being as a means to make the world a better place.

 

[TheLightWithin]

I think that puts me more in agreement with the Independent God believers, even though I think spiritual potential and potential for integration and wholeness is baked into physical reality, Creation.

The Independent God believers?

 

[otherbrother]

Desire of being seems different than just being. The latter involves acceptance more than desire. A person desires to have something. Just being is more like a verb. Not desiring to have it like a noun-like thing. Simply willing to be. Being as a verb.

I got these descriptions of being as an experiential mode from Open AI on the internet. I’m not aware of the original sources of these concepts, but I think they convey, more-or-less what I mean by being as a verb rather than a noun.

Being:

Inner experience: Being is about being present, aware of your thoughts and feelings, and cultivating a sense of self-compassion. It's about connecting with your inner world and understanding your values.

Mindfulness: Practices like meditation and mindfulness can help individuals develop a greater awareness of their being and how it influences their actions.

Self-acceptance: Being involves accepting yourself, flaws and all, and working towards self-improvement without striving for perfection.

 

[otherbrother]

I got these descriptions of being as an experiential mode from Open AI on the internet. I’m not aware of the original sources of these concepts, but I think they convey, more-or-less what I mean by being as a verb rather than a noun.

Being:

Inner experience: Being is about being present, aware of your thoughts and feelings, and cultivating a sense of self-compassion. It's about connecting with your inner world and understanding your values.

Mindfulness: Practices like meditation and mindfulness can help individuals develop a greater awareness of their being and how it influences their actions.

Self-acceptance: Being involves accepting yourself, flaws and all, and working towards self-improvement without striving for perfection.

Being, as I am using the word here, involves what Arthur Diekmann in Robert Ornstein’s anthology The Nature of Human Consciousness (title? by memory) called the “receptive mode”, in contrast to the “action mode.”
I did a little mind experiment once in which I tried to maintain a meditative buzz while walking. Even the simple act of slowly walking diminished the buzz, but I saw evidence that we might be able to learn how to better maintain the buzz (Alpha rhythms?) while moving/acting. It happens sometimes while distance running, often when so tired that the monkey mind stuff is tossed overboard as though my body was a sinking ship needing to lighten its load. In this case the load was mental functioning not relevant to the task at hand. In one past marathon training run I lost all sense of time (one of Emanuel Kant’s two “aprioris,” mental biases). This abandoned function had a payoff in addition to saving mind energy. Without time, any dread of how much longer I would be suffering was taken away. It was one way to let go and let God. What other mental processes that help us navigate regular physical reality are limiting our awareness of deeper, more spiritual, realities?
Would be nice to offload ego defenses at times. Possibly even the illusion of being separate from one another. Could we learn to intentionally throw those functions overboard without requiring physical exhaustion?
Can we will endorphins and similar natural joy juices while sitting comfortably in a chair. Meditation probably does release some of those natural joy juices. Hence, the buzz I had prior to walking during my little mind experiment.

 

[Dhammañāṇa Bhikkhu]

Desire of being seems different than just being. The latter involves acceptance more than desire. A person desires to have something. Just being is more like a verb. Not desiring to have it like a noun-like thing. Simply willing to be. Being as a verb.

So does it. Being is a deed, eating. It's just on span of actions in a wheel, driven by craving (desire) and not knowing (how things work, come about) as root cause.
What ever comes conditioned into being, is subject to decay.

What ever state, being, is the cause of suffering, aging, sickness, death.

And of cause, being (eating) isn't skilful, unless having done the task, abound craving and ignorance, since when the is still craving, once running out of merits, food, the wheel of becoming goes on another time.

How can consume, being, be skilful as long it requires others giving, suffering. Only if one dwells in the realms beyond sensuality (Jhana, the Brahma-viharas) one's consume, being, is faultless. Yet, as told, as long as not done the task, even this consume is faultless, as nourishing off own merits, it's not for sure, and eaten off, one starts again very, very low.

 

[Thomas]

... Even the simple act of slowly walking diminished the buzz ... It happens sometimes while distance running ... In one past marathon training run I lost all sense of time ...

I have experienced the same, riding my motorcycle ... Riding at night on a well-lit motorway, almost empty of other traffice, approached my turning and the desire was simply to keep going, just ride on ... I think it's along the lines of 'being in the moment'.

A zen sage was asked about the state of no-mind, and he pointed to a man, sitting on the step of his shanty dwelling, weaving a basket. His hands knew exactly what to do, 'he' did not have to interfere. He was not day-dreaming, he was engaged with his work ... The sage commented that the weaver was closer to no-mind than some of the most adept Zen practitioners.

What other mental processes that help us navigate regular physical reality are limiting our awareness of deeper, more spiritual, realities?

Attachment to the world of things ... 'Monkey Mind' ...

Would be nice to offload ego defenses at times. Possibly even the illusion of being separate from one another. Could we learn to intentionally throw those functions overboard without requiring physical exhaustion?

Yes. The practice of detachment, from the world and from ourselves. The attachment to self is probably the biggest impediment to the experience of Self.

Can we will endorphins and similar natural joy juices while sitting comfortably in a chair. Meditation probably does release some of those natural joy juices. Hence, the buzz I had prior to walking during my little mind experiment.

But a note of caution here, is that not attachment? The seeking of reward? The comparing of this state to that?

Eckhart said:
"The man who abides in the will of God wills nothing else than what God is, and what He wills. If he were ill he would not wish to be well. If he really abides in God's will, all pain is to him a joy, all complication, simple: yea, even the pains of hell would be a joy to him. He is free and gone out from himself, and from all that he receives, he must be free. If my eye is to discern colour, it must itself be free from all colour. The eye with which I see God is the same with which God sees me. My eye and God's eye is one eye, and one sight, and one knowledge, and one love."
(Sermon IV, True Hearing, emphasis mine)

He goes on to say:
"The man who abides in God's love must be dead to himself and all created things... Such a man must renounce himself and all the world... And supposing a man had renounced himself for twenty years, if he took himself back for a moment, that man's renunciation would be as nothing. The man who has truly renounced himself and does not once cast a glance on what he has renounced, and thus remains immovable and unalterable, that man alone has really renounced self...

This second qualifies the prior, in the sense that 'all pain to him is joy' not because he delights in pain, nor in the obsequious idea that God sends pain as a test ... I think Eckhart is using hyperbole here to make a point. All pain is joy, all joy is joy, all is joy, because it simply is what it is, and such a man makes no more of it nor any less.

Eckhart says, 'dead to himself and all created things' then he is no use to man nor God. God did not put us here to demonstrate feats of 'detachment' by sitting on tip of poles or being buried in the ground or dwelling in caves. If one experiences true solitude, as a qualitative thing, not a quantitative thing, one can experience the desert in the middle of the city. Likewise, if one has to remove oneself from the hustle and bustle to experience detachment, one has not really attained detachment.

This is not a critique of monastic orders, the priory or the hermitage ... such calling is a vocation for the sake of the world, a living witness, even if in utter seclusion.

Eckhart says, 'Such a man must renounce himself and all the world' because only then is one free to serve God, as the Shema demands.

Such a path is a perilous path. Eckhart says, "And supposing a man had renounced himself for twenty years, if he took himself back for a moment, that man's renunciation would be as nothing." (Snakes and Ladders)

 

[Aupmanyav]

Very true, but it works for me by getting me to look for purpose.

We make our own purpose. The assignment is from the society or the government.