Faiths Without Proof: A Left-Hand Path Inquiry

[Alif Balaam Yashin]

I am paying attention. Historical facts please!

Historical facts, in what way? Mythos? Archeology? Philosophy? What exactly are you asking me to provide?

 

[Alif Balaam Yashin]

Any path, if it is authentically a path, must encompass the whole person.

You've shifted the meaning of the word PATH to avoid my point. Both the Right Hand Path and the Left Hand Path do engage the whole person, but they do so toward opposite ends. Big difference. So yes, each path encompasses the whole person, but they orient that person in opposite directions

You might presume 'annihilation', but you would be wrong.

In what way?

Ah.

Then tell me, please, having isolated oneself within one's own subjectivity, how does one refine anything, in relation to any objective measure?

Or, put another way, once self-isolated, what preventions, checks and balances can one draw on to prevent one's psyche simply deluding itself with ideas of grandeur?

A lesson (supposedly) from King Cnut (Canute) (994-1035)
In an attempt to educate the court about the limits of human power and the ultimate authority of Reality, he had his throne taken down to the sea shore, and as the tide came in, he ordered it to retreat. Despite this royal command, however, the rising tide eventually, we're told, gave the king a drenching.

Another is the 'Emperor's New Clothes'.
The tale concerns an 'emperor' (self) who has an obsession with 'fancy new clothes' (the psyche's self-image), and spends lavishly on them at the expense of 'state matters' (the Real).

One day, two 'conmen' (intellect and the will), visit the emperor and offer to supply him with a magnificent suit clothes that are invisible to those who are either incompetent or stupid... what follows is a procession of self-delusion until a child sees through the adult folly and declares the emperor naked.

Your Isolation of authority = absence of discipline or verification is false. The Left-Hand Path does not reject refinement, constraint, or testing. It rejects external moral authority, not standards.

How do you see, indeed how can you know, that the Real and the True then harmonises itself with the relative and the Illusory, when the subjective is, by definition, ephemeral, transient and insubstantial?

What you are implying is that Truth exists independently of the subject, and subjectivity is epistemically inferior.
You’re assuming that the Real and the True exist apart from subjectivity, and that the subjective is merely illusory.

 

[wil]

If there is specifically something you would like me to explain,

Nah, I think i have seen enough

 

[Thomas]

What you are implying is that Truth exists independently of the subject, and subjectivity is epistemically inferior.
You’re assuming that the Real and the True exist apart from subjectivity, and that the subjective is merely illusory.

No, I'm saying the Real exists apart from the subjective apprehension of it.
I'm also saying the 'true' is a determination in relation to the Real.

And I'm asking how, when it's beyond dispute that the self can become subject to self-deception and illusory fabrications of the psyche, you can preserve against that when "isolating consciousness within one's Subjective Universe(s) and, in a state of self-imposed psychic solitude, refining the Soul/Psyche to increasingly perfect levels."

This suggests to me a dis-association with the Objective Universe and thus risks 'losing touch with reality'.

So when you say "The Universal Reality or Objective Universe is then made to Harmonize itself with the Will of the Individual Psyche", how can you defend that against the view that really one's just living in a projection of self-aggrandisement?

 

[moralorel]

Historical facts, in what way? Mythos? Archeology? Philosophy? What exactly are you asking me to provide?

You said the following :"The Western Left-Hand Path, at its core, is about self-mastery, exploring the shadow aspects of the psyche, and taking personal responsibility for one’s ethical and spiritual development. We deal with historical facts, psychology, and the antinomian process of externalizing our Greater Self. We don't have unproven divine texts, Messianic heroes, dogma..."

So I'm just asking what these "historical facts" are. You're the one who brought them up.

 

[Alif Balaam Yashin]

No, I'm saying the Real exists apart from the subjective apprehension of it.

I would say, The Objective Universe is given meaning through our Subjective Universe(s), but yes, objective reality exists despite us . . . maybe

I'm also saying the 'true' is a determination in relation to the Real.

Is there really anything that is True to us?

And I'm asking how, when it's beyond dispute that the self can become subject to self-deception and illusory fabrications of the psyche, you can preserve against that when "isolating consciousness within one's Subjective Universe(s) and, in a state of self-imposed psychic solitude, refining the Soul/Psyche to increasingly perfect levels."

This suggests to me a dis-association with the Objective Universe and thus risks 'losing touch with reality'.

The Left-Hand Path does not claim that the psyche is immune to illusion. It claims something far more radical.
Illusion is inevitable. Therefore, mastery, not avoidance, is the goal. Self-deception is not an error to be eliminated by external authority; it is a force to be confronted, mastered, and weaponized through self-knowledge.

The psyche fabricates symbols, the mind assigns meaning, and the self can fracture, confabulate, or deceive itself. This is not a flaw, it is the raw material of Majiq!

The Right-Hand Path seeks safety for the soul.
The Left-Hand Path seeks to strengthen the Self.

The Left-Hand Path accepts the proximity of madness and says: "Walk the edge without falling”.
That is the path of the Adversary, the Magus, the Karcist, not the priest or the believer.
Anyone who claims immunity from illusion is already lost to it.

So when you say "The Universal Reality or Objective Universe is then made to Harmonize itself with the Will of the Individual Psyche", how can you defend that against the view that really one's just living in a projection of self-aggrandisement?

The accusation of “self-aggrandizing projection” assumes that the universe is neutral, passive, and prior to Will.
The Left-Hand Path rejects that premise outright. Consciousness is not a byproduct of reality, it is a participating force within it. It means training yourself so that the way you see things, the choices you make, the risks you take, and the actions you follow through on all point in the same direction, so your life starts reflecting what you want, not what you were trained, pressured, or expected to want

 

[Thomas]

I would say, The Objective Universe is given meaning through our Subjective Universe(s), but yes, objective reality exists despite us . . . maybe

Well clearly it does, as it existed before you. Subjectivity is the individual's apprehension of the Real, the first fact of which is one's own existence or being.

Is there really anything that is True to us?

Generally yes, otherwise we'd collapse under a psychic crisis moments after waking up. Is the floor real, or will I climb out of bed and fall into infinite space ... that kind of thing ... so there's that which we can all agree is true.

The Left-Hand Path does not claim that the psyche is immune to illusion.

OK.

It claims something far more radical.

Which is?

Illusion is inevitable.

Yes, but not inescapable.

Therefore, mastery, not avoidance, is the goal. Self-deception is not an error to be eliminated by external authority; it is a force to be confronted, mastered, and weaponized through self-knowledge.

If one is subject to self-deception, then the idea of 'confronting, mastering and weaponizing through self-knowledge' is contradicted by the fact that the 'self knowledge' is all part of the deception. You're just compounding the illusion.

Why such language of conflict-violence?

The Left-Hand Path accepts the proximity of madness and says: "Walk the edge without falling”.
That is the path of the Adversary, the Magus, the Karcist, not the priest or the believer.

And you have no way of knowing if that path is itself illusory.

Anyone who claims immunity from illusion is already lost to it.

EXACTLY.

So how do you prevent that if you've isolated the self within its own subjectivity/fishbowl?

The accusation of “self-aggrandizing projection” assumes that the universe is neutral, passive, and prior to Will.

I'm not assuming anything. I'm talking about a flaw in the psyche.

The Left-Hand Path rejects that premise outright.

And claims the psyche is infallible? You can't be serious.

Consciousness is not a byproduct of reality, it is a participating force within it.

I absolutely agree. Therefore 'consciousness' is more than you.

The RHP is the path to union between individual (transient) and universal (eternal) consciousness.

You seem to be suggesting the LHP is the isolation of the individual transient consciousness within its own subjective 'universe/fantasia' and thus becoming emperor of its own little world.

It means training yourself so that the way you see things, the choices you make, the risks you take, and the actions you follow through on all point in the same direction, so your life starts reflecting what you want, not what you were trained, pressured, or expected to want

To me, thus is key.

For one, you simply can't determine how effective, or ineffective, that 'training' is.

There seems to be an inherent assumption that any sense of union of the self and the All is itself some order of preconditioned delusion, which, of course, its's not ... it's just part of your (subjective) narrative.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

How does one meaningfully debate between unverifiable belief-systems when they stand on unproven metaphysical foundations? If each system rests not on evidence but on faith, revelation, or tradition, then the usual tools of argument, reason, logic, and empirical proof, are already compromised.

How can we have a meaningful discussion when one offers God given faiths are unverifiable? All God given faiths rest on the proof of the Messenger, the first to expound the power latent in the given Message.

They are the exponents of "Self Mastery", everything we can be is from their example and the given Message.

All other paths borrow the best from them, and call it their own, which I would offer, is naught but the ego of a worldly self talking. It's dishonest, as it is not acknowledging the true source of virtue and morals.

Regards Tony

 

[Alif Balaam Yashin]

How can we have a meaningful discussion when one offers God given faiths are unverifiable?

Not sure I understand this, please elaborate.

All God given faiths rest on the proof of the Messenger, the first to expound the power latent in the given Message.

"God given faiths" , , , you've lost me already

 

[Alif Balaam Yashin]

Well clearly it does, as it existed before you. Subjectivity is the individual's apprehension of the Real, the first fact of which is one's own existence or being.


Generally yes, otherwise we'd collapse under a psychic crisis moments after waking up. Is the floor real, or will I climb out of bed and fall into infinite space ... that kind of thing ... so there's that which we can all agree is true.


OK.


Which is?


Yes, but not inescapable.


If one is subject to self-deception, then the idea of 'confronting, mastering and weaponizing through self-knowledge' is contradicted by the fact that the 'self knowledge' is all part of the deception. You're just compounding the illusion.

Why such language of conflict-violence?


And you have no way of knowing if that path is itself illusory.


EXACTLY.

So how do you prevent that if you've isolated the self within its own subjectivity/fishbowl?


I'm not assuming anything. I'm talking about a flaw in the psyche.


And claims the psyche is infallible? You can't be serious.


I absolutely agree. Therefore 'consciousness' is more than you.

The RHP is the path to union between individual (transient) and universal (eternal) consciousness.

You seem to be suggesting the LHP is the isolation of the individual transient consciousness within its own subjective 'universe/fantasia' and thus becoming emperor of its own little world.


To me, thus is key.

For one, you simply can't determine how effective, or ineffective, that 'training' is.

There seems to be an inherent assumption that any sense of union of the self and the All is itself some order of preconditioned delusion, which, of course, its's not ... it's just part of your (subjective) narrative.

I'll get to your excellent retorts tomorrow, it's my birthday today, and I have a few guests over.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Not sure I understand this, please elaborate.

"God given faiths" , , , you've lost me already

I will leave it at that, your last reply says there no benefit in further replies.

Regards Tony

 

[Thomas]

Happy birthday for yesterday!

 

[Dhammañāṇa Bhikkhu]

How does one meaningfully debate between unverifiable belief-systems when they stand on unproven metaphysical foundations? If each system rests not on evidence but on faith, revelation, or tradition, then the usual tools of argument, reason, logic, and empirical proof, are already compromised.

So does good householders ideas just base on faith, believe, arguments, experience, investigation as far as memory and attention allows, right? Not really knowing what's the outcome of every single action he does. Just based on some memory and consideration, hear-saying, experiences in actually different situation and different conditions.

So what if one would offer simply, yet hard reject-able a "Safe bet" in regard of view? As one's view determine one's resloves, ... deeds, living, farewell... right or wrong release.

All further, by gaining purity by it, comes by seeing for oneself, without any reason for doubt, on this right track. And the best thing is: one has always a start anew, comeback, warranty! So no reason not just going after the safe bet: Apannaka Sutta: A Safe Bet

 

[Alif Balaam Yashin]

Well clearly it does, as it existed before you. Subjectivity is the individual's apprehension of the Real, the first fact of which is one's own existence or being.


Generally yes, otherwise we'd collapse under a psychic crisis moments after waking up. Is the floor real, or will I climb out of bed and fall into infinite space ... that kind of thing ... so there's that which we can all agree is true.


OK.


Which is?


Yes, but not inescapable.


If one is subject to self-deception, then the idea of 'confronting, mastering and weaponizing through self-knowledge' is contradicted by the fact that the 'self knowledge' is all part of the deception. You're just compounding the illusion.

Why such language of conflict-violence?


And you have no way of knowing if that path is itself illusory.


EXACTLY.

So how do you prevent that if you've isolated the self within its own subjectivity/fishbowl?


I'm not assuming anything. I'm talking about a flaw in the psyche.


And claims the psyche is infallible? You can't be serious.


I absolutely agree. Therefore 'consciousness' is more than you.

The RHP is the path to union between individual (transient) and universal (eternal) consciousness.

You seem to be suggesting the LHP is the isolation of the individual transient consciousness within its own subjective 'universe/fantasia' and thus becoming emperor of its own little world.


To me, thus is key.

For one, you simply can't determine how effective, or ineffective, that 'training' is.

There seems to be an inherent assumption that any sense of union of the self and the All is itself some order of preconditioned delusion, which, of course, its's not ... it's just part of your (subjective) narrative.

Great points, it's going to take me some time to address/unpack everything you stated.