Tree of Knowledge

[Dima]

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil has always been the biggest mystery (to me at least) from the Genesis creation story. It seems pretty obvious that nothing that's created in the image/likeness of God could but be destined for the knowledge of good and evil - eventually. Sure, you may have nakedness at first, when there is yet no work of man, but as soon as there's movement forward, there's the inevitable acquiring of knowledge that cannot but include good and evil. In fact, there can hardly be knowledge without also knowing good and evil because even at the most fundamental level, any work can either be done right or wrong. The hand of man, even the hand of God Himself, is not lacking in paradise so called, when He planted a garden in Eden and gave it unto Adam to keep it - garden meaning garden and not jungle, and keeping can only be done by instruments. Humans are not animals therefore animalia is irrelevant. Animals are made clothed with nature; humans are made naked so that they may clothed themselves with works of a higher purpose taken from nature, thus knowledge/mind/spirit. If all that God made is good, than does that not necessarily include the possibility, at the very least, for humanity to have through the very means of acquiring the knowledge of good and evil, avoid the fall by choosing the good?

Now obviously I'm aware of all the divers answers that may arise on an Interfaith Forum, hence why I posted this in Abrahamic Religions, primarily to ask of those who desire to read and understand the creation account in a way that makes sense to itself. Sure, allegorical is understandable, but what then do the allegories mean? To you personally: Can you imagine God having desired for us to actually remain in a state of perpetual ignorance with regard to knowing good and evil? Surely "very good" cannot mean making the world in a way that is impossible to support choosing good to you, can it?

 

[muhammad_isa]

..Can you imagine God having desired for us to actually remain in a state of perpetual ignorance with regard to knowing good and evil? Surely "very good" cannot mean making the world in a way that is impossible to support choosing good to you, can it?

I believe that G-d knew that Adam and Eve (mankind) would sin in "the garden".
He knows what He creates .. He knows that mankind is weak and will sin.
We all sin, regardless of religious persuasion .. but some more than others .. some don't even
acknowledge the concept of sin.

..so the simple answer is "no", G-d did NOT desire mankind to live in "the garden" forever, not
without trial, in any case .. He gave us free-will, and wants us to learn .. sometimes
by "the hard way" of making mistakes.

I believe that G-d forgave Adam and Eve as they repented, yet sin has consequence .. we might suffer in this life for a time. The greater punishment is in a life hereafter for those who refuse to repent..
..like satan.

 

[Qbit]

Can you imagine God having desired for us to actually remain in a state of perpetual ignorance with regard to knowing good and evil?

Would you rather have knowledge, or would you rather have wisdom?

The Tree of Life offered wisdom, not just knowledge.

Proverbs 3:13 - Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.
Proverbs 3:18 - She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her.

They had the choice of either tree. Your question makes no sense.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Would you rather have knowledge, or would you rather have wisdom?

Both.. but yes, I agree that G-d wants us to grow spiritually and gain wisdom.

 

[Dima]

I believe that G-d knew that Adam and Eve (mankind) would sin in "the garden".
He knows what He creates .. He knows that mankind is weak and will sin.
We all sin, regardless of religious persuasion .. but some more than others .. some don't even
acknowledge the concept of sin.

..so the simple answer is "no", G-d did NOT desire mankind to live in "the garden" forever, not
without trial, in any case .. He gave us free-will, and wants us to learn .. sometimes
by "the hard way" of making mistakes.

I believe that G-d forgave Adam and Eve as they repented, yet sin has consequence .. we might suffer in this life for a time. The greater punishment is in a life hereafter for those who refuse to repent..
..like satan.

I definitely uphold in the concept of sin. The difficulty I’m facing in the creation story is the fact that while describing the beginning of humanity as innocent through ignorance (makes sense), it appears to make the very idea of leaving that state ignorance as sin and the only sin - understandably so as sin is not typically imputed to those who are ignorant.

The other concern is the common ambiguity between God’s knowledge and His “making/creating”. Did He create the world in a way that it was possible for man to mature in the work of good without having to fall to attain good?

 

[Dima]

Would you rather have knowledge, or would you rather have wisdom?

View attachment 6012

The Tree of Life offered wisdom, not just knowledge.



They had the choice of either tree. Your question makes no sense.

I would rather have wisdom, and I agree with you that the tree of live symbolizes wisdom as wisdom stands in the most immediate relation to working life.

My question makes sense in that wisdom necessarily includes knowledge (and understanding) and thus the tree of life would make the tree of knowledge obsolete since it would go beyond it. What would be the meaning then of the tree of knowledge that’s included in the tree of life?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Did He create the world in a way that it was possible for man to mature in the work of good without having to fall to attain good?

I see that it is satan that "fell" .. he was once pious, but fell through pride and arrogance.
he refuses to repent .. and has vowed to send mankind astray in his envy.

Adam and Eve were guilty of sin .. they repented, so "the fall" was not a personal one.
..but I realise the literal narrative in the Bible implies that mankind must
suffer due to A & E's sin .. I think it's misleading .. the concept of "original sin" is
not one I agree with.
I believe that babies are born innocent, and that it is parents and/or environment that
might corrupt them.

G-d knew all along that A & E would sin .. our lives on this earth is finite .. we are made of clay/soil,
and the body is relatively fragile.

 

[Qbit]

What would be the meaning then of the tree of knowledge that’s included in the tree of life?

There is nothing wrong with knowledge per se. The man and woman already had plenty of knowledge to begin with. God has no problem with people gaining knowledge in general. That being said, the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is about a specific kind of knowledge (hence the name) that could only be obtained by partaking of the Forbidden Fruit. The 'good and evil' that one learns is through sin and death. A high price has to be paid for it. It's basically the difference between someone being taught the easy way or the hard way.

Some people can be told not to do something that is detrimental to themselves or to another person and they will listen and obey. On the other hand, there are those that won't listen. They will learn the hard way after much suffering. That would be all of us here on this earth.

The man and woman in Eden chose to learn things the hard way because they were tempted by lust. They would experience suffering and death in the process. They could have chosen the Tree of Life and had the Law written in their 'tables of the heart', i.e., their Genomes, without all the suffering, death, sin, disobedience, etc.

Just to be clear, the two types of 'fruit' offered by each tree were not 'information downloads' like something from the movie Johnny Mnemonic or whatever. The two types of fruit were different types of bodies or 'clothes' to choose from. They were basically symbolic of zygotes. One tree offered a body of corruption and death, while the other tree offered a body of glory and immortality.

2 Corinthians 5:1-4 - For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

We all partook of the Forbidden Fruit in our mom's belly to get here. We chose to clothe ourselves with the earthly tabernacle bodies we have now. In other words, the moment of conception of our parents to conceive us is when we made the 'covenant with death'. That is original sin. We fell from Heaven to get here. We were the Morning Stars that sang together. We became falling stars. We have always existed in some form or another and we always will.

The man and woman were originally 'naked' because they were first created without a physical body. They had no 'shame' because they did not have reproductive organs. The Forbidden Fruit changed their DNA to give them the reproductive organs we have now. Again, original sin is in all of us. The Tree of Life does not offer reproductive organs with all the sinful baggage that it entails. It is not 'included' as you somewhat suggested. Note that God did not 'kill an animal' and dress them like the Flintstones. It was this...

Job 10:11 - Thou hast clothed me with skin and flesh, and hast fenced me with bones and sinews.

They went from an ethereal, heavenly, spiritual environment to the fallen physical world we live in now. They were 'born again' literally. All of us were.

 

[Dima]

G-d knew all along that A & E would sin .. our lives on this earth is finite .. we are made of clay/soil,
and the body is relatively fragile.

This line of thinking sounds like directing the fault at God: in refusing to state plainly that the world was fashioned for them not to sin but they choose to sin in light of this and by pointing to us being made of soil as a reason for our fragility and mortality - since it was God who made him of it. If a body of clay is incapable of eternal life, than would they have shed off their body if they ate of the tree of life? I figure you'll probably say He knew they wouldn't eat of it. But since you don't deny their will, you must still account for what would have happened if they had not sinned so as to justify the fact that the tree of knowledge was as real as the tree of life.

Neither do I believe that people are born guilty, rather, they're effectively made guilty by the error, sin, and rebellion that they're born into, where cases of effects on the body are an extreme testimony to this. Sure, they also have their will to exercise, but the depth of error effectively guarantees the fall - hence the fall.

 

[Dima]

There is nothing wrong with knowledge per se. The man and woman already had plenty of knowledge to begin with. God has no problem with people gaining knowledge in general. That being said, the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is about a specific kind of knowledge (hence the name) that could only be obtained by partaking of the Forbidden Fruit. The 'good and evil' that one learns is through sin and death. A high price has to be paid for it. It's basically the difference between someone being taught the easy way or the hard way.

Some people can be told not to do something that is detrimental to themselves or to another person and they will listen and obey. On the other hand, there are those that won't listen. They will learn the hard way after much suffering. That would be all of us here on this earth.

The man and woman in Eden chose to learn things the hard way because they were tempted by lust. They would experience suffering and death in the process. They could have chosen the Tree of Life and had the Law written in their 'tables of the heart', i.e., their Genomes, without all the suffering, death, sin, disobedience, etc.

Just to be clear, the two types of 'fruit' offered by each tree were not 'information downloads' like something from the movie Johnny Mnemonic or whatever. The two types of fruit were different types of bodies or 'clothes' to choose from. They were basically symbolic of zygotes. One tree offered a body of corruption and death, while the other tree offered a body of glory and immortality.



We all partook of the Forbidden Fruit in our mom's belly to get here. We chose to clothe ourselves with the earthly tabernacle bodies we have now. In other words, the moment of conception of our parents to conceive us is when we made the 'covenant with death'. That is original sin. We fell from Heaven to get here. We were the Morning Stars that sang together. We became falling stars. We have always existed in some form or another and we always will.

The man and woman were originally 'naked' because they were first created without a physical body. They had no 'shame' because they did not have reproductive organs. The Forbidden Fruit changed their DNA to give them the reproductive organs we have now. Again, original sin is in all of us. The Tree of Life does not offer reproductive organs with all the sinful baggage that it entails. It is not 'included' as you somewhat suggested. Note that God did not 'kill an animal' and dress them like the Flintstones. It was this...



They went from an ethereal, heavenly, spiritual environment to the fallen physical world we live in now. They were 'born again' literally. All of us were.

This type reasoning is what I was alluding to when I said "who desire to read and understand the creation account in a way that makes sense to itself", where what you say doesn't, most visible where after they fell, God says that man has become like us, to know good and evil - thus concluding that knowledge means knowledge, not the choosing of one or the other. Now look, I understand how the harsh reality of the material world bears down on us all, especially when viewed from the perspective of us being clay bodies. I won't claim to know what was in the beginning, but still, I consider your reasoning erroneous, mainly stemming from your acceptance of a literal preexistence and viewing the material world, at least the body, as not part of God's work. I will need more time to lay out mine views on how I understand these things; God willing I'll be back sooner than later.

 

[muhammad_isa]

If a body of clay is incapable of eternal life, than would they have shed off their body if they ate of the tree of life?

Literal interpretations of Genesis are likely to send astray. It is based on an
ancient scroll of unknown origin.

Do you think only man could "live forever" on this earth?
What about all the other creatures .. did they not die?

..or perhaps you think a severed arm would have grown back etc.
One should not confuse this life, for an eternal life of the soul.

..you must still account for what would have happened if they had not sinned..

Impossible .. mankind are not angels (that don't sin). They have free-will and are of
independent mind.
I believe in the narrative, that was the only sin possible .. it was only a matter of time,
before the influence of satan would "get to them".

 

[Qbit]

...where after they fell, God says that man has become like us, to know good and evil - thus concluding that knowledge means knowledge, not the choosing of one or the other.

Your conclusion was reached rather quickly, wouldn't you say?

Eating of the tree was in Genesis 3:6:

Genesis 3:6 - And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

God's 'become as one of us' statement was in Genesis 3:22.:

Genesis 3:22 - And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

A lot happened between those two verses. Interestingly, the KJV translates it as 'the man' and 'his hand' and 'he drove out the man'. What about the woman? There are many unanswered questions such as:

• Who is 'us'?
• Who is God talking to, himself? The Trinity?
• How did the man and woman 'become' as one of the us?
• Exactly how did all of them come to know good and evil?
• Was it an 'information download', or was it a physical experience?

The Creation Account is extremely compressed. There is a ton of information that has to be unpacked like a large ZIP file. The only way to accomplish the unpacking is to use the rest of the Bible as the decoder. Some just use just the OT. I use both OT and NT.

I know the answers to the questions. The 'us' was not the Trinity. The truth is way more profound.

Since I am busy at the moment, I will lay some foundational groundwork that will help us get started, beginning with Genesis 2:17:

Genesis 2:17 - But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Just about everyone on the planet interprets the above verse incorrectly. They either change the word 'day' into 'thousand years' or they change 'surely die' into 'spiritual death' or 'separation from God' or some other non-scriptural concept. How can anyone have a discussion on Genesis if folks are changing words around? It is impossible.

If you and everyone else simply took the verse literally, without 'cheating' and making it say something it doesn't, then I wouldn't have to address statements like "I consider your reasoning erroneous". You are the one making the errors here.

Simply put, the man and woman *actually died on that very day* after partaking of the Forbidden Fruit. It was literal and not a 'fake news' so called 'spiritual death' (whatever that means) that happened 'within a thousand years'. They slept the sleep of real death within a twenty-four-hour period. As I explained earlier, they learned the hard way. Moreover, they went to Hell, obviously. Again, this was not a DMT trip with Joe Rogan or whatever. This was a real physical learning experience.

OK, so now they are in Hell. They now *know* the difference between good and evil. Get it? The good and evil acquisition of knowledge happens in the afterlife. I didn't want to have to explain this much early on but here we are. The good go to Heaven. The evil go to Hell. Lesson learned.

So, what happens next? Resurrection of Damnation of course. Here it is:

Genesis 3:7 - And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

Their eyes were closed because they were dead ('sleeping'). After waking, they knew they had no physical body at that point and so they tried to make a 'covering' for themselves. The dead are not raised with a physical body. That comes later. God had to 'clothe' them with the corrupt body that the man and woman chose for themselves. God simply complied with the covenant.

I consider your reasoning erroneous, mainly stemming from your acceptance of a literal preexistence and viewing the material world, at least the body, as not part of God's work.

I guess I will just go ahead and give the answer as to who the 'us' were:

• God
• Satan
• Mother Earth (aka, Mystery Babylon)

The Forbidden Fruit was the ovary of Mother Earth who is later referenced as Mystery Babylon. Who fertilized said ovum? Satan did. Yes, the so called 'seed of the Serpent' is what we call 'sperm'. All males have it. Again, the Forbidden Fruit was the zygote we all were conceived into.

We are made in the image of all three. Who can receive this truth? I can because I am not an egotistical narcissist. Only someone who is humble can admit we are all born into original sin and we need Salvation.

I will need more time to lay out mine views on how I understand these things; God willing I'll be back sooner than later.

The Bible teaches we must be born again, literally. We again have the same two choices from two trees. The Bible teaches reincarnation, not 'infinite torments'. Those that 'dwell on the earth' are the ones not ready for the Tree of Life yet. Simple.

The ovary growing on the Tree of Life are from Wisdom, i.e., from Sarah. The sperm is Abraham's Seed. The two combine to make a zygote in the womb of New Jerusalem:

Galatians 3:16 - Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Jesus is symbolic of DNA, the 'word made flesh', i.e. seed. Abraham's seed, i.e., Abraham's sperm, the Lamb, emanates from the loins of the Father to fertilize the ovum:

Revelation 22:1 - And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

The redeemed partake of the fertilized eggs to make a covenant with Life. They are reconceived and born again. All literal.

Like I said, I use both OT and NT, along with human physiology, to decipher the 'code'. It's all there for those with eyes to see it.