Torah, Tabbies, and Tunes

The stereo types i believe while have a grain of truth are mostly jealousy.
I am not sure. I'm still collecting data. But my intuition, which wants to jump ahead, agrees with you.

Have you noticed that there are some people in this world, when they come across genuine goodness, feel the need to tear it down? Why would they do that? They are morally mediocre people who rationalize their immorality by saying, "Hey, everybody does it." A truly good person exposes their lie. They cannot allow the evidence to remain--it must be destroyed.

If you had come to me before I became a Jew and asked me what it was I admired most about them, I would have said, "Their ability to thrive in the midst of adversity." I have this awful, ugly feeling that the very thing I so admire is exactly what makes others hate, because it means someone else has a better way of doing things. The very thing that made me desire to emulate and learn, elicits anger in others. They have to tear it down because it exposes the lies they tell themselves.

I really, really hope I'm wrong about that.
 
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Jews range from ultra Orthodox to atheist.
I dont understand the logic of an atheist jew.

Now I refer to myself as a nontheistic unitic... I like many of the teachings and words purported to be of Jesus, but definitely cannot call myself a Christian because I dont believe in a being creator or trinity with Jesus as the son of G!d.

But what is an atheistic jew? I realize since you arent one you and others may not be able to explain it.

Ai says...

They generally believe in and practice the following:
Cultural Connection: They celebrate Jewish holidays, preserve traditions, and value Jewish history, literature, and humor.
Secular Humanism: They reject the concept of a literal, divine deity, viewing the Torah as historical mythology and folklore rather than divine law.
Tikkun Olam: They focus heavily on the Jewish ethical tradition of "repairing the world" through social justice, community action, and human accountability.

For me that does not make sense...if i follow that it would allow me it seems to claim atheistic christian...but that dont seem right. I like and partake in many of the traditions, (but also some of zen, Judaism, Islam...)
 
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For me that does not make sense...if i follow that it would allow me it seems to claim atheistic christian...but that dont seem right. I like and partake in many of the traditions, (but also some of zen, Judaism, Islam...)
It's cultural, and not necessarily religious in the sense of piety.
 
I dont understand the logic of an atheist jew.

Now I refer to myself as a nontheistic unitic... I like many of the teachings and words purported to be of Jesus, but definitely cannot call myself a Christian because I dont believe in a being creator or trinity with Jesus as the son of G!d.

But what is an atheistic jew? I realize since you arent one you and others may not be able to explain it.

Ai says...

They generally believe in and practice the following:
Cultural Connection: They celebrate Jewish holidays, preserve traditions, and value Jewish history, literature, and humor.
Secular Humanism: They reject the concept of a literal, divine deity, viewing the Torah as historical mythology and folklore rather than divine law.
Tikkun Olam: They focus heavily on the Jewish ethical tradition of "repairing the world" through social justice, community action, and human accountability.

For me that does not make sense...if i follow that it would allow me it seems to claim atheistic christian...but that dont seem right. I like and partake in many of the traditions, (but also some of zen, Judaism, Islam...)
No worries, wil. :) This is the most common difficulty I run across. Probably two or three times a week, I'm clarifying what a Jew is.

The problem is that "Am Yisrael," usually translated as the People of Israel, pre-existed ALL of our modern boxes. Nation. Religion. Race. None of those ideas existed when the People of Israel first formed, which is why they don't fit. People? What's that supposed to mean?

wil, the only way you are going to understand the concept of an atheist Jew is to create a new box. The truth is that "am" has no English equivalent. However, the closest word I have ever found is tribe.

I'll give that a moment to sink in. It has become problematic because leftists have demonized the notion of tribe, blaming all of the earth's woes on tribalism. It's a modern version of cultural imperialism. What right do they have to tell a tribal people "You are bad for being a tribe"? None.

So, let's say it out loud now so that it will become a reality for you. TRIBE. Jews are a joinable tribal group with a shared history, homeland, language, and culture.

IOW Jews are NOT in the same box with Christians, Muslims, and Buddhists. We are in the same box as Kurds, Zulu, and Apache.

So now let's apply that knowledge to your atheist question. Another tribe I deeply admire are the Dineh (Navajo). The Dineh have their own religion, their own unique spirituality full of incredible stories and sand paintings and healing sings. But not everyone in their tribe embraces it. There are Dineh who have become Christians, Dineh who are atheists. Dineh who don't believe a single word but still enjoy showing up to all the tribal events, and often embrace particular tribal values. You get the idea. And I think we both agree--they are still Dineh, right?

You now have all the tools you need to understand atheist Jews. Our Tribe HAS a religion: Judaism. But just like with the Dineh, not all members of our tribe practice it. Give it some time to sink in :)
 
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TRIBE. Jews are a joinable tribal group with a shared history, homeland, language, and culture.

IOW Jews are NOT in the same box with Christians, Muslims, and Buddhists. We are in the same box as Kurds, Zulu, and Apache.
Interesting explanation...but can you "become" apache or become dineh?

How do you "join" a shared history, honeland?
 
Interesting explanation...but can you "become" apache or become dineh?

How do you "join" a shared history, honeland?
YES. You CAN become a member of various Native American tribes, and that is an important point! All tribes, on rare occasions, do adopt outsiders in. Some are more open to it than others. Jews are VERY open, much more open than average. But yes, sometimes outsiders are adopted in as Apaches--historically these were typically orphans, children whose parents could no longer care for them, or war captives. Additionally, there have been unusual cases among the Apache where adults have been gradually assimilated in. As with many Native tribes, belonging was traditionally based more on kinship, community relationships, and shared obligations than on race alone. An outsider who lived with an Apache band for years, learned the language, participated in daily life, married into the community, and earned trust could become accepted as one of the people.

Whether orphan or captive or simply an outsider drawing more and more near, they are given an assigned place within a kinship structure. (Assignment to a clan is a particularly significant step for such assimilation into the Dineh.)

In the Jewish People, this occurs when we take our Hebrew names. They will always be X ben Avraham (son of Abraham) or Y bat Sarah (daughter of Sarah), symbolically establishing DESCENT.

And THAT is exactly the kind of thing the modern, western miind can't wrap it's mind around. We want to force-fit the Apache into our "race" box. We want to see them solely in terms of biological descent. But the truth is simply more complex than that. Like I said, in order to understand "atheist Jews" you are going to need to create a new box. Remember that even in western culture, kinship includes non-biological relationships such as marriage and adoption.

Most of us are actually already familiar with a wonderful story of this. If you have ever watched the movie "Dances With Wolves" there is a scene where Kicking Bird says to him, "The white man who came here is no more. All I see before me is a Lakota named Dances With Wolves." It is THE movie of an outsider being adopted in as a full tribal member. It does a fantastic job of showing just how a long journey of that sort realistically takes place, which is why I always mention it. (I'm sure RabbiO is sick of hearing my spiel. LOL)

In your Bible is a story of Ruth. It is the ultimate story of someone adopted in. Ruth begins her life as a Moabite, and ends her life as an Israelite. Christians tend to focus in on the part where she says, "Your God shall be my God," but that is not the ONLY thing she says. She ALSO says, "Your People shall be my People."

Your mission, Mr. Phelps, should you choose to accept it, is to begin understanding Jewish converts as a kind of Dances With Wolves with a yarmulke.

And remember how slow and gradual that transformation from John Dunbar to Dances With Wolves actually was. People usually speak of conversion to Judaism taking 1-3 years. Formally that is the case. But that's an oversimplification that I'd like to fix right here and now. There is a whole history that happens before a convert ever walks into the Rabbi's office and says, "I want to become a Jew." If you have the interest and the patience, we can talk about that a bit. But I'm not sure if it's something you even care about, so let me know.
 
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I am not sure. I'm still collecting data. But my intuition, which wants to jump ahead, agrees with you.
Have you noticed that there are some people in this world, when they come across genuine goodness, feel the need to tear it down? Why would they do that?
Yes this seems to be commonplace. Every time I tried to appeal to decent men, they seldom respond, instead I'm greeted by mean-spirited critics and people who want to start up an argument. It's like a desert and echo chamber. No wonder why more and more decent people are going outside into nature, while the Internet/social media

IRL, I noticed some people go out of their way to tell me everything I do is wrong, I'm doing it the wrong way, etc. They see someone having a good time and tried to control their behavior. I do not understand it. Others are drawn to happiness, and are more than happy to sit down and join me in what I'm doing. I like to play a musical instrument in public places, I don't see what's so wrong about that. People play loud music and nobody calls them out for it.

They are morally mediocre people who rationalize their immorality by saying, "Hey, everybody does it." A truly good person exposes their lie. They cannot allow the evidence to remain--it must be destroyed..
In other words, they are non-personalities who have never lived their own lives, never thought for themselves. They don't desire to bear the burden of responsibility so they desperately long for someone to tell them what to do, how to live, etc. because it excuses them.

I once talked with a Jewish pagan, he explained to me why people lie: he said people starts lying because they feel inadequate about themselves so they lie to themselves to feel better. Then they start to believe their own lies. Then they stop believing other people because deep down they know they're lying and to justify it they have to believe that "Everyone does it." I am surprised to hear the same exact talking points being expressed here!
One of his memorable quotes that stuck with me was: "The real tragedy of the liar is not that he deceives, but that he can not believe." They no longer believe that a person is capable of acting in the interests of the whole, they suspect that he always has ulterior motives for virtuous action.

If you had come to me before I became a Jew and asked me what it was I admired most about them, I would have said, "Their ability to thrive in the midst of adversity."
So much emphasis has been laid on their apparent vices, that people can't believe that Jews can distinguish themselves in artistic fields, produce original thought, can shape an epoch, etc. There was a famous palm-reader named Cheiro, who observed, "The Jew is an adapter more than an inventor, he may not be found at the creation of industries, but there is no one who knows better how to bring about combinations, groups and gigantic trusts." Even a reprehensible person like Stalin appreciated many qualities in the Jewish people: "capacity for hard work, group solidarity, and political activeness."

I have this awful, ugly feeling that the very thing I so admire is exactly what makes others hate, because it means someone else has a better way of doing things. The very thing that made me desire to emulate and learn, elicits anger in others.
It also means they have to learn to adapt (their habits) to the new society, which is precisely what they don't wish to do.

Vladimir Solovyov wrote, "If I do not know how to say the word, let someone else say it, but no one speaks. If my path does not lead to the goal, let them indicate another, a better one, but no one indicates anything. There’s only denunciation of catholic sins, enmity against papism."
 
also means they have to learn to adapt (their habits) to the new society, which is precisely what they don't wish to do.
I see the very opposite. We have adapted to every culture we have ever come into contact with. The Jews in 1930's Germany were INCREDIBLY assimilated. To Hitler, THAT was the problem. It meant you couldn't always spot us. It meant we might intermarry and contaminate the master race. God forbid. @Weishaupt You can't survive for thousands of years unless you are adaptive.
 
I see the very opposite. We have adapted to every culture we have ever come into contact with. The Jews in 1930's Germany were INCREDIBLY assimilated. To Hitler, THAT was the problem. It meant you couldn't always spot us. It meant we might intermarry and contaminate the master race. God forbid. @Weishaupt You can't survive for thousands of years unless you are adaptive.
By they, I meant the majority of non-Jews. They don't like change. While reading John Lukacs, I noticed how he pointed out that most people are engaged in a struggle to adapt their ideas to cicumstances, but Hitler adapted circumstances to his ideas.

But yes, Jews have adapted to every civilization, their purpose is to assimilate into the nations that have received them in order to ennoble them, according to what a learned Jew once told Origenes. Lenin pointed out the Jewish problem boggles down to the question of assimilation and isolation. Herzl realized that most Jews were unable to raise their level, they were content with being either capitalists or revolutionaries.
Reactionaries in both camps stand in opposition to assimilation, it's not for nothing that Zionists and anti-Semites/Nazis cooperated, they both have a need of each other's existence to justify their hatred and maintain the cycle of violence.
 
By they, I meant the majority of non-Jews. They don't like change. While reading John Lukacs, I noticed how he pointed out that most people are engaged in a struggle to adapt their ideas to cicumstances, but Hitler adapted circumstances to his ideas.

But yes, Jews have adapted to every civilization, their purpose is to assimilate into the nations that have received them in order to ennoble them, according to what a learned Jew once told Origenes. Lenin pointed out the Jewish problem boggles down to the question of assimilation and isolation. Herzl realized that most Jews were unable to raise their level, they were content with being either capitalists or revolutionaries.
Reactionaries in both camps stand in opposition to assimilation, it's not for nothing that Zionists and anti-Semites/Nazis cooperated, they both have a need of each other's existence to justify their hatred and maintain the cycle of violence.
I'm finding a lot of what you are saying in here troublesome, beginning with your statement that Jews (whom you refer to as Zionists) cooperated with Hitler. What is even more disturbing is your suggestion that Jews (whom you refer to as Zionists) need to justify "their hatred" and "maintain the cycle of violence."

Zionism is nothing more and nothing less than the idea that Jews have a right to self-determination--a nation in our ancestral homeland as a refuge against antisemitism, since history has taught us we can't trust the nations of the world to protect us.

While the rationale I gave above is certainly a secular political philosophy that appeals to reason, Zionism also can't be divorced from Judaism. The entire first book of the Torah, Genesis, concerns itself with the WHO and the WHERE of the covenant between God and the Jewish people. Genesis 17:8 "And I will give you and your seed after you the land of your sojournings, the entire land of Canaan for an everlasting possession, and I will be to them for a God." The Ultra Orthodox Jews that people THINK are not Zionist? They are the most fervent Zionists of all--their only thing is that they want Israel to be a theocracy established by the Messiah, not the secular democracy that it is.


I think it's probably best if we don't talk further.
 
I'm sure you guys already know that Jews range from ultra Orthodox to atheist. Theologically, I fall into the progressive area of the spectrum, and I do indeed attend a Reform Temple where I'm a highly active member. In my past, I have also attended Orthodox and Conservative synagogues, and have learned a lot from both. After playing around with various labels, I think I feel most comfortable quoting Heschel: "My Judaism needs no adjective."
Only because years ago when I was halfjokingly referring to myself as a Reconrefoconservadox Jew (because postdenominational and/or transdenominational sounded so flavorless) and I was searching for something catchy to explain that, did I come across the quote I think you are referring to, but it was not Rabbi Heschel. It was Cyrus Adler, the then president of the Jewish Theological Seminary, addressing the Rabbinical Assembly in 1932.

I don't recall ever seeing that attributed to Rabbi Heschel. If you've got a cite, let me know.
 
I'm finding a lot of what you are saying in here troublesome, beginning with your statement that Jews (whom you refer to as Zionists) cooperated with Hitler. What is even more disturbing is your suggestion that Jews (whom you refer to as Zionists) need to justify "their hatred" and "maintain the cycle of violence.".....
I figured you would catch this and respond.
 
Only because years ago when I was halfjokingly referring to myself as a Reconrefoconservadox Jew (because postdenominational and/or transdenominational sounded so flavorless) and I was searching for something catchy to explain that, did I come across the quote I think you are referring to, but it was not Rabbi Heschel. It was Cyrus Adler, the then president of the Jewish Theological Seminary, addressing the Rabbinical Assembly in 1932.

I don't recall ever seeing that attributed to Rabbi Heschel. If you've got a cite, let me know.
I'm so glad you brought this to my attention. We all know how important it is to me to get my sources right. I looked into it.

The source of my conflation with Heschel is that he did indeed make SIMILAR remarks. He often criticized denominationalism and wrote that he was "not an Orthodox Jew" but simply "a Jew."

You are absolutely correct about the who (Adler) and the when (his address to the Rabbinical Assembly in 1932).

Apparently "My Judaism needs no adjective" is also attributed to Emil L. Fackenheim, the German Canadian Jewish philosopher and Holocaust theologian. He used the phrase to express his conviction that Judaism should not ultimately be defined by denominational labels such as Orthodox, Conservative, or Reform. His point was that the essence of Judaism transcends those categories. But this of course was a later date in history from the Adler quote. I am not sure if Fackenheim was quoting Adler (more likely) or simply coincidently came up with the same expression (less likely).

Your citation of Adler is the the accurate one, and from this moment on, I will be citing HIM. :) Now I have to go read up on Cyrus Adler--a good research topic for this Shabbat.
 
I'm finding a lot of what you are saying in here troublesome, beginning with your statement that Jews (whom you refer to as Zionists) cooperated with Hitler. What is even more disturbing is your suggestion that Jews (whom you refer to as Zionists) need to justify "their hatred" and "maintain the cycle of violence."

Zionism is nothing more and nothing less than the idea that Jews have a right to self-determination--a nation in our ancestral homeland as a refuge against antisemitism, since history has taught us we can't trust the nations of the world to protect us.

While the rationale I gave above is certainly a secular political philosophy that appeals to reason, Zionism also can't be divorced from Judaism. The entire first book of the Torah, Genesis, concerns itself with the WHO and the WHERE of the covenant between God and the Jewish people. Genesis 17:8 "And I will give you and your seed after you the land of your sojournings, the entire land of Canaan for an everlasting possession, and I will be to them for a God." The Ultra Orthodox Jews that people THINK are not Zionist? They are the most fervent Zionists of all--their only thing is that they want Israel to be a theocracy established by the Messiah, not the secular democracy that it is.


I think it's probably best if we don't talk further.
1. It's misleading to assert that I refer to (All) Jews as Zionists. To clarify, by Zionist, I mean in the sense Russian philosopher Vladimir Solovyov would've used it, who distinguished between nationality and nationalism: "narrow and blind nationalism" / fanatical patriotism. I recognize the fact that each individual Jew has differing degrees of patriotism, they're not all fanatics.
2. Jews and Zionists are not synonymous. Joe Biden pointed out that you need not to be a Jew to be a Zionist.

"Zionism is nothing more and nothing less than the idea that Jews have a right to self-determination--a nation in our ancestral homeland as a refuge against antisemitism, since history has taught us we can't trust the nations of the world to protect us."

In theory, Zionism is the absurd idea that Jews everywhere should be concentrated in one place. In the Talmud, it is written, "if they were concentrated in one place, the nations would make war on them; but since they are dispersed, they cannot be destroyed." Zionism is precisely speaking, the negation of the very concept of Judaism/the Diaspora/worldwide distribution of Jews. It's in the interests of every orthodox Jew to oppose Zionism and affirm the importance of maintaining Diaspora. George Steiner "refuses to buy into Jewish nationalism, and believes Jewish creativity is essentially a diasporic condition." Einstein wrote in a letter, "I believe that the unique durability of the Jewish community is to a large degree based on our geographical dispersion, and the fact that we consequently do not possess instruments of power that will allow us to commit great stupidities out of national fanaticism. The persecutions will never cause us to perish."

4.
The Ultra Orthodox Jews are not really Zionists, because Zionists have always been active idealists; the Ultra Orthodox Jews are content with waiting/hoping like the rest of orthodox Judaism.

5.
If we take the Genesis-Exodus narratives at face value, then one is forced to admit that Jews used to live by means of robbery/plunder, who eliminated the inhabitants of a foreign country. But I don't think that's entirely true. Probably the first Jews in the world developed among the brave and valiant souls who wanted to preserve their identity/freedom and remain true to one's self. They were more like the Old Believers in the past. Even in Roman times, Julian points out, "For I saw that those whose minds were turned to the doctrines of the Jewish religion are so ardent in their belief that they would choose to die for it, and to endure utter want and starvation rather than taste pork or any animal that has been strangled or had the life squeezed out of it..."

Whenever Canaan is called "a land flowing with milk and honey", it does not refer to a location, but a symbol identical with Eden. I read somewhere that grapes were unknown to geographical Canaan.

As for Genesis 17, this should not be taken only as a historical event, it's a messianic address to a future Jewish ruler. It correlates with the passages in Isaiah 52-53 about how a Messiah suffers. That's not about Jesus, it's about the coming ruler and about the Jews as a whole people. Isaiah 53 – What Jews Believe
"See, my servant will act wisely; he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted. Just as there were many who were appalled at him—his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any human being and his form marred beyond human likeness— so he will sprinkle many nations,"
The names carry meaning but people read them as if they were just names.

Abram = Exalted Father
Abraham = Father of Many
Sarah = Princess
Martha = Mistress/Lady

At no point in Jewish history has a Jewish patriarch covered for all Jews AND for non-Jewish nations. We are not all born from one Noah or one Adams/Eves - although our blood links us all - there were various founders of civilizations.
The future ruler has yet to be achieve such an exalted status (Exodus 22:28). There is more to Elohim than meets the eye. It's not just a name/title for God. Nachmanides took it to mean the "master of all the forces". Daniel 11 talks about how the Elohim were like the champions of the people and how people became powerful through acknowledging them. Platon speaks of a time where man lived under the watchful guidance of the Elohim Kronos/Saturn. Jewish prophets speak about the return of Kronos/Saturn, or Michael, who they once served under.
 
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@Weishaupt -

Some forums give members access to a face palm emoji. That all the response your post, #35, deserves. The available 👎 lacks the eloquent derision that the face palm or, perhaps, a poop emoji would convey.

For someone who wishes to present himself as well read and knowledgeable, you display an appalling lack of knowledge and understanding of Zionism, Jews and Judaism. I can believe your assertion that you have never actually completed any book you have started to read. (Just as an aside, your cite to the Talmud misrepresents the text.)

If, in calling you out, my criticism is deemed too over the top for the forum, @Thomas or @iBrian will let me know.
 
@Weishaupt -

Some forums give members access to a face palm emoji. That all the response your post, #35, deserves. The available 👎 lacks the eloquent derision that the face palm or, perhaps, a poop emoji would convey.

For someone who wishes to present himself as well read and knowledgeable, you display an appalling lack of knowledge and understanding of Zionism, Jews and Judaism. I can believe your assertion that you have never actually completed any book you have started to read. (Just as an aside, your cite to the Talmud misrepresents the text.)

If, in calling you out, my criticism is deemed too over the top for the forum, @Thomas or @iBrian will let me know.
Not all Jews are Zionists (in the political sense), they do not choose to identify as Zionist.
I'm not interested in being dragged down into petty arguments. I spent the past 13 years studying the Jewish question, Zionism, Judaism, etc and I undertook a project to remedy these problems. Jews belong to a noble race, they're destined to become future leaders.
I wanted to offer them the opportunity of a lifetime to become great renewers of mankind.
New Revelation for Bahai and the World | Bahai Forums
"morality must acquaint people with objects that make them feel small; it must ask them to fall down in order to stand up the greater; it must confront them, as they are, with what they are capable of becoming, their lifetime versus Eternity, and their fancied splendor versus God and Nature;" (Weishaupt, Diogenes Lamp)

Well, it seems there's no point in me continuing to talk on here. It does not seem to be an ideal place for bringing together the religions of the world. The project I've undertaken will vindicate me, it's the greatest gesture towards the restoration of prophetic Judaism Martin Buber dreamed about.
 
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