Bible contradictions -v- divination

Dear SS,
In the context reffering to the law, it was your recent posting on The Law of Love written by yourself on this thread. And SS why the need to contradict others? Love does not live in contradiction. For knowing the greatness of God all is equal to itself. Is not the Christian thread here to manifests itself in God's ever evolving creation? And God is checking in constantly. In this is total trust. As you have said many times, " All is as it is" Peace.
Sacredstar said:
I was attempting to express that GOD does not have a problem with divination, because if GOD did have a problem with it then Jesus would not appear and or communicate with millions of healers and mediums around the world.
Divination and healing are different topics, though.

And you can't justify something just because a certain thing is done in someone's name - that is precisely the sort of argument that fundamentalist Atheists throw at Christians when claiming that Hitler was Christian, therefore invalidate Christianity.

basstian said:
Most of your posts have not been a Christian with new ideas new views looking to uplift her brothers in Christ with her insight. But rather attacks on beliefs we as Christians hold dear.
That is quite true - I've had a number of complaints about this. It effectively means another is effectively "witnessing" at others and its not something I want to see encouraged.

basstian said:
If you want like minded believers to agree with these type posts you may have to leave the Christian thread and maybe go to the spiritualist or mythical or comparitive forums.
That is actually quite a good point - even the most Liberal Christians I've communicated with hold on to at least certain precepts of mainstream Christianity - I don't see that here.

So, SacredStar, please do take care not to disrespect the Christians on the Christian board by being seen to preach *at* them.

Better to post those ideas where they will be less confrontational, yes?

Remember, just because somebody has a differing opinion, doesn't mean it's not an important opinion to have. :)
I want to comment on the above interactions. This is an interesting dilemma. For one if I want to discuss the Bible and problems I have with certain interpretations why go to another category. There won't be people familiar with the biblical texts to dialogue with. The best threads onnthe Bible are with Christians.

What I see here is a debate over what a Christian is. There are no rules for being a Christian except being a follower of Christ. That doesn't mean you have to agree with everything the Bible says. I consider myself Christian because I believe in Jesus and what he stood for. Do I believe he is and was God. Not really. I believe that he was a messenger and a great prophet and people are healed in his name though.

I think Jesus would be appalled at what man has done with his words. Remember when satan tempted him in the desert and told him that all the kingdoms of the world could be his. Jesus refused it. He didn't want to have all the kingdoms of the world bow down to him. He was trying to teach us salvation through the Father, his father and our father.

You can't put rules on it and that is what I see here. It probably seems that istick up for SS all the time but what right does anyone here have to tell her she is not christian or reverent of God and Jesus. From my point of view if you can't engage in these debates with other believers with different interpretations then you need to question your own beliefs and how strong they are.
Thank you didymus for your understanding and knowing.

Dear All

I have learnt from my father who guides me that if one feels attacked then we must look within oneself at the reason why and what this feeling is showing us. I have not been offended by anything that anyone as said even when it was made to be very personal, but I have been surprised at how sharing a different perspective can indeed trigger so many issues for GOD loving people. `And so it is that comfort zones can be tender and as the saying goes 'a man does not welcome a looking glass'.

When we have healed ourself nothing offends, for we see the beauty, message and deep inner meaning in all. For all is for our highest good when we see through God's eyes.

Jesus was called a sorceror, false prophet and magician, he was persecuted and crucified, how many more people will we persecute and crucify in the name of Christianity?

When our foundations are rock solid nothing can sway us off course, nothing can trigger us for our faith is so strong nothing can undermine our love, life, truth and experience of GOD.

So maybe GOD is asking you to look within yourselves to re-establish your own relationship with GOD, this is for you to know the reason why but the pure intent is love and if you do not view my purity of heart, love of GOD and respect for the bible, then GOD wills you ask yourselves the reason why.

Do you honestly think that Jesus does not love diviners? Do you not think that diviners and healers have been persecuted and judged for long enough? 10 million lives were lost in the witch hunts in Europe can we allow this to be left in the past so that we can all unite in oneness and the love of GOD? As far as I am concerned diviners and healers have had a very hard time for millennia, even Jesus told the Jews off for killing the prophets. They are the underdog not anyone on this forum and Jesus always defended the underdog no matter who they may be, no matter what sin anyone committed Jesus was there by there side in their defence. May we all continue to learn from his example of supreme light and purity of heart.

Are we to allow personal issues or the bible to separate us or are we to allow the ethical principles of Christ teachings to unite us?

The choice is in our hands.....

May peace be with us all as we move through these end times and the eye of the needle, for the eye is slim indeed and it can be painful moving through it into the Kingdom of GOD.

As my mother said 'giving birth can be very painful but when you hold that bundle of joy in your arms the memory of the pain will disappear. Humanity is currently going through this rebirth.

In total acceptance and acknowledgement of all your views and feelings, I really do understand where you are coming from and I hear you.

Love beyond measure

Kim xxx
I've always felt that "divination" was not what was sinful, but man in his fallen state using supernatural power outside of God was the sin. Humans taint everything they touch, so it would make sense for God to cut off our contact with certain parts of Natural Law. That is what magic is, not from Satan and not (directly) from God, but working with Nature.
Interesting point. I would agree that magic is not so much using supernatural power as using the natural power of will/intent and energy.

Interestingly, a lot of the passages on divination, magic, witchcraft, sorcery, etc. in the Bible is a matter of one's definition. What is condemned in the OT is specific magical practices that would reduce one's reliance on or attention to God, as well as practices that harm people. We confuse these passages today to mean all magic and mysticism (by the way, there have always been Christian mystics, and we aren't magicians or witches).

Maybe I'll start a new thread on this... but I don't want to ruffle feathers unnecessarily.

Suffice it to say that, having studied anthropology and comparative religion, and taught on indigenous shamanistic traditions... witchcraft/sorcery in all ancient cultures does NOT mean what it does in our modern language today. We need to separate out old vs. new definitions, as well as all our connotative baggage we get from Hollywood and the legacy of the witch trials. Shamans, Wiccans, and mystics are not the same as the OT witches and sorcerers. I can go into detail if anyone wishes, but many I find that many Christians are very close-minded when it comes to understanding the true meaning of the OT passages in their original context and language, and the difference between those who were condemned and modern magicians and mystics (who are two very different categories themselves, by the way). Essentially, a witch/sorcerer in any indigenous religion was a person who used supernatural power to harm others. It is only in recent times that "witch" has been adopted by neo-Pagans to mean a magician. Mages/druids/ovates/shamans/etc. were folks that had supernatural gifts, and used these to help people or were consulted about local religious matters. Hence, Jesus was visited by magi, and not witches/sorcerers. The difference is in intent and, presumably, connection to the supernatural. Now, the OT also forbids other certain practices for the Jews, including divination, consulting with ghosts, charming snakes, and some others. Note that first, these get lumped together by many Christians today to mean anything magical and/or mystical and/or supernatural (and even by some to completely natural things, like herbalism), and also that these laws were for the Jews. Gentiles were bound only by the 7 Noahide laws. What we do with that today is an interesting question.

I feel the great need to throw out another couple definitions here, since it is obvious folks don't see the difference-
Magic is using the will/intent to effect a change through seemingly supernatural means. Lots of modern magicians think what they do is entirely natural and is basically working energy. Depends on what they're doing- not everybody is consulting spirits and whatnot. Some people just naturally are good at making things happen by thinking about it.
Mysticism is having a direct experience of and/or relationship with the supernatural. If you're a Christian mystic, then you're just a person who follows Christ and has a direct, personal relationship with God/Jesus. As in, you get visions, have miraculous experiences, etc.
Seems to me that Christian mysticism is the heart of being a Christian- everyone I know emphasizes the need for a personal, deep relationship with God/Jesus. I just guess that people don't know that's what mysticism is?

Divination, in the professional religious and anthropological literature, has two meanings- 1. To foretell the future or probabilities about the future and 2. to discover the will of the supernatural (i.e., God, ancestor spirits, or whatever the culture in question is seeking to connect with). Personally, I find modern divination to fall into several different categories, some of which seem to harm people in their reliance on God and others that do not. To seek to foretell the future seems to me a crutch- a desire to lean on one's own understanding rather than trusting in God. Now, one can have spontaneous precognition given by God, but that's different from seeking such knowledge on one's own accord. So whatever means one uses- astrology, tarot, I Ching, etc. it seems this is a bad idea, at least to me. On the other hand, things like tarot can be for some people symbolic ways of understanding their own subconscious mind better. Like an ink-blot test, one uses tarot, for example, to discover one's own fears, dilemmas, etc. The cards are symbols, and you interpret them as you will. In such cases, you aren't foretelling the future or discovering the will of the supernatural. You aren't involved in the supernatural at all. You're just using a symbolic tool to help you deal with your own personality. I have little experience with divination, but I've seen people use inanimate objects like tarot for both purposes. It is motivation, I think, that makes the difference, not the object.

Just my 2+ cents.
path_of_one said:
It is motivation, I think, that makes the difference, not the object.
wow... i hadn't seen this thread yet. obviously a bit of a fire starter.

path of one...this is a very good closing line. however... i do have my own thoughts on this which perhaps aren't in direct alignment with the rest of your post. but what fun would any of this be if everything were in direct alignment?!

i think one must be extremely careful when dealing with the supernatural. i personally believe that much of it is not of God. this is a personal belief statement and i have no scriptural support that hasn't already been quoted, or misquoted, whichever the case may be. it is more of a feeling thing for me. i feel that there is much evil at work, using what i call unnatural means as a way of enticing people to it.

picture this... a man comes up to you and tells you that he knows your name and where you've come from, and that he knows of something in your life that you've been struggling with. whatever it is, he hits the nail right on the head and gives you comforting advice.

it is easy to see that and think this man is very in touch with some sort of supernatural power or another. and one wouldn't be wrong to think that at all. and who knows, perhaps he is pure at heart as intends to only do good.

however... i believe there is more of a qualifier than simply the motive. and that is the medium. and by medium i do not mean tarot, dream reading, palm reading, general future foreseeing, etc. i go a step simpler than that. by medium, or means, whichever you prefer, i am saying good or evil. of God or not of God.

now... whether someone is trying to good with a 'gift' that they have recieved from an evil source, (demon, satan itself, etc...) or not, the fact remains that they are a tool of the evil one. and trickery is its game. that is why i say be careful.

that said, i do not 'discrimintate' against diviners in any way. and again it's a feeling thing, and one could call me a mystic for putting so much stock in said feeling, but if i do not see God in what a diviner is doing i will close my ears, as best i can, and not seek whatever council they can provide. perhaps this is wrong, who am i to tell whether God is at work behind something or not. but if i can't sense the Holy Spirit at work around me, that's enough for me.

now... with all of that out there... i do not believe that someone must say they are doing something in God's name in order to be doing the will of God. as in i feel that God uses non-believers to do his works just as he uses believers. and often it may be through *supernatural* means. but i maintain that it is the Holy Spirit at work through them, not any sort of personal power they posess. And i believe Satan also has the ability to 'open people up' to these unnatural 'gifts'.

in short... i do not believe a person's ability to be in tune with the supernatural comes from them. but from either God, or satan.

one last *quick* comment.... while we examine the old laws vs. the new, and the meanings of such, and decide what should still be honored by christians today... let's not forget the one law that as christians we know God holds true, and holds us to, at the gates of paradise...

For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. - John 3:17
and we all know the verse before this.

in response to something SS said about Jesus surely loving all diviners, i say i am certain that He indeed loves each and every one of them, just as i am equally certain He is deeply sadened by the fact that He will not see all of them in heaven.

if i ever see a mystic of any kind about any thing, i promise not to pull out my Bible and yell "be gone satan", "the power of Christ compells you", or sprinkle holy water on them! ;)
JonMarc said:
i think one must be extremely careful when dealing with the supernatural. i personally believe that much of it is not of God.
I agree one must be careful when dealing with the supernatural. I just don't think all that everybody thinks is supernatural, is such. A bunch of it is probably entirely natural but we are still limited in our understanding of it. An excellent example is acupuncture- to the Chinese it is working on meridians of chi in the body, to the Westerner it is causing endorphins to be released, thus easing pain and increasing healing. One is a supernatural explanation, the other natural. I believe a lot of what we think is supernatural is really just natural, and like all of nature, was created by God.

I do think that there are certainly spirits that are not godly, though I believe God created everything, so it is all of God, though it might not be currently in God. Even demons were created by God, they are just spirit entities that, like many humans, chose to turn away from God and take joy in harming others. Then I think there's a bunch of spirits that are in an of God and in God category, that are also tied to nature. I admit that, like you, this is based on perception and feeling and not scripture. But cultures the world over recognize nature spirits, and they're pretty much like human spirits, with free will. So they might turn toward God or not, depending on the individual.

As I tried to explain when I discussed the difference between a witch/sorcerer and a mage/shaman/etc., it is partially about motivation and partially about source. This is merely my opinion, since many (non-Christians) would argue that there is only one neutral source of supernatural/magical power, and it is purely intent that makes the difference. I think ultimately only God created everything, and thus all power is His, but that this power can be usurped by others (including us humans) and some of these spirit entities are not godly. So, I think if one is drawing power from an ungodly spirit entity, there is a problem and bound to be corruption, no matter what one's intent is. For example, I've heard of modern magicians who are demonologists but claim to be doing healing and other good things with their magic, but that doesn't sit well at all with me. The ends do not justify the means. I was simply trying to explain that there is a difference between an inanimate object, like a deck of cards with paintings on them, and an actual interaction, like that between a demon and a human magician. I don't think objects contain power outside of what is invested in them by the owner/user, but I do think other spirits certainly have their own agenda and that agenda matters. Of course, much is conjecture on my part based on feelings, because I have never invoked spirits nor do I wish to.

it is easy to see that and think this man is very in touch with some sort of supernatural power or another.
Yes and no. He might be in touch with a supernatural power, or maybe he was just born a telepath/empath. I know agnostics who were born with telepathic abilities. They can't help it. They don't try to receive information, they just automatically do. I've experienced this as well, and it is most uncomfortable. This is another case of a blurry line between what is natural and what is supernatural. Perhaps it is natural for some to pick up on others' thoughts- everyone does this to some extent. Or it could be that they do have some sort of supernatural power. But some people just seem born with certain abilities, and it seems to be more that they choose how to use them and whether to put them in the service of themselves, God, or evil rather than being directly gifted by God/evil (I choose not to use the concept Satan, but rather more a force/movement than a personal spirit entity).

by medium, or means, whichever you prefer, i am saying good or evil. of God or not of God.

I entirely agree, but I think that people choose with what/whom to align themselves. What we perceive of as supernatural gifts, say the capacity to receive visions from the supernatural, or the ability to discern spirits- I think, based on the people I know, one is just born with those gifts. But one chooses whether to dedicate all of one's gifts (natural and supernatural) to God, or not to God (either to evil directly, or through the medium of one's own ego). And certainly, this choice matters. I've met people that I just felt instantly creeped out by and knew there was evil there, and I've felt the same in certain places with spirit entities. It is a very disturbing and distinct feeling, and no matter how nice they appeared, I could feel what lurked under the surface of that superficial goodness. Ugh. That sounds so awful and non-politically correct and unaccepting, but it's hard to explain and I can't help it. Suffice it to say I've met shamans and such who "felt" in God, those who felt like quacks, and those that felt wrong/out of God. I've also met avowedly Christian healers/ministers/etc. that ran across the same spectrum.

if i do not see God in what a diviner is doing i will close my ears, as best i can, and not seek whatever council they can provide. perhaps this is wrong, who am i to tell whether God is at work behind something or not. but if i can't sense the Holy Spirit at work around me, that's enough for me.
Yup, me too. That's pretty much how it works for me. Studying this stuff academically is very different from meeting people who are connected to the supernatural in some way, and I pretty much just rely on those inner, intuitive feelings that I know are the Holy Spirit guiding me. Honestly, I can feel the difference between not of God and of evil as well. The former being something along the lines of feeling like someone's power being of themselves (I do believe we are all born with powers of will and intent, and some people harness these), and the latter being of evil (which I mean, of forces that are actively working against God). It's tough to explain, because I don't really buy the Satan vs. God thing, and I don't believe Satan is one literal entity, but more like a force that some humans and spirits align themselves with.

now... with all of that out there... i do not believe that someone must say they are doing something in God's name in order to be doing the will of God.
Agreed. Conversely, I don't think just because someone says they are doing something in God's name, they are telling the truth. I've felt otherwise on some occasions...

but i maintain that it is the Holy Spirit at work through them, not any sort of personal power they posess. And i believe Satan also has the ability to 'open people up' to these unnatural 'gifts'.
I believe we are all born with some supernatural power- the power of our own will/intent, which can interact with others' and the energetic forces of nature. I think some people are further gifted with certain abilities to interact in the spirit world on some level. I truly believe all power, and all creation, belongs only to God, so Satan can't give us power, though our power can be used for evil.

I believe the Holy Spirit is the immanent aspect of God that seeks to guide us toward good, toward God's plan, and toward our own salvation and spiritual development. Satan, for me, is symbolic of the force in us that is greedy and malicious, and seeks joy in hurting others and fighting against God- there are certainly a conglomeration of spirits and humans who align with this force, give themselves to it, and thus there is evil there. But I don't see it as a certain pseudo-deity fallen angel specifically, nor do I see demons as fallen angels. There was a thread on that a while back and I gave my reasons there. I do think if we give in to our own quest for personal power for our own use, whether supernaturally or naturally (as through politics or religion), we are opening ourselves up to falling ever farther away from God.

if i ever see a mystic of any kind about any thing, i promise not to pull out my Bible and yell "be gone satan", "the power of Christ compells you", or sprinkle holy water on them! ;)
Heh-heh, I think many of us are mystics and just don't know it. I know I don't advertise, nor do I think of myself and anybody that someone should come see for anything. I think people must see mystics as some sort of New Agey teacher or something, when really mysticism is all about one's personal journey.

Being a Christ-following mystic, if you pulled out your Bible I'd smile and be happy, if you yelled "be gone satan" I'd be slightly annoyed and slightly amused (and wonder, where is Satan? I don't sense anything!), if you yelled "the power of Christ compels you" I'd respond "yes, and...?" and though I personally don't take stock in objects as being inherently holy, holy water couldn't hurt anything! LOL :p
path_of_one said:
and though I personally don't take stock in objects as being inherently holy, holy water couldn't hurt anything! LOL
lol... i feel the same way.

now that'll be the only quote i pull from what you said mostly because it's after 11pm and i got about zero sleep last night and need a few hours before getting up to work at 6:30. still haven't finished laundry!:(

about "of God".....when i say of God and not of God i do not mean literally as in coming from God or not coming from God. ours is a shared belief that everything comes from God. i mean it in a figurative sense, as in coming from things which are Godly, not coming from things which are Godly. although i imagine you picked up on that.

about people's abilities..... i fully agree with what you're saying about people being born with certain abilities. though i believe that someone who is born with an ability is likely chosen by God and that gift bestowed upon them. How they choose (free will) to use it, as in all things is ultimately up to them.

about satan/evil/demons....i think we see things similarly here, although i do believe that there is some central figure at the core of this evil energy. i'm not sure if it is Lucipher so much as it is all things that he stood for in the story. i usually say it or its instead of him or his. but i do use terms like satan, it, him, etc. to embody that force. much like you might call the ocean a she... though i'm not so sure if there's a central force which tends to guide the general movement of the seas. i did read somewhere the moon had something to do with it. :) regardless, with your statement about people aligning themselves to the good or evil forces in the world i am in agreeance. and i don't believe that satan can create anything either. however... as we start seeing in genesis with its comment about the tree of knowledge to eve, it does have a sneaky way of making people more aware of certain things.

about supernatural/natural/unnatural.... i too feel that humans are very intuitive beings, naturally. some people are more intuitive than others. i used supernatural as a very broad term, too broad i know, but it was mostly to save the space of getting into all of this stuff in that post. i usually try to post about something and clarify it later if people seem to be interested. haha, maybe i'm doing it all backward.

anyway, your post was very informative, and in many ways helped to clarify mine. while we don't see exactly eye to eye on all of it, we seem to have many of the same ideas on the subject. perhaps we've had similar experiences in relation to the supernatural. haha, had to throw that in there.

incidentally, while i didn't talk about it, i too have often witnessed the other side of things you mentioned in your 7th paragraph. the short one beginning with "agreed. conversly,...."

always a pleasure to view your insights into things! :)