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Some ideas really puzzle me. Predestination is one of them.

Some believe the Righteous and Faithful have been predestinated to be saved.
This verse seems to support that idea but in a mirror effect that also the wicked are predestinated for the day of evil.

Proverbs 16:4The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Only Solomon And the Prophet Jeremiah use this phrase "Day of evil"
Job Also Has a hint to this subject.

Job 21:30That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.

Seems to be the same basic concept I would like to see others views on the interpretation of these two verses.

I am a firm believer that doctrine and beliefs should be established out of the mouths of two or more witnesses. (Or two or more verses out of the Bible)
This Idea that certian people are made wicked just doesnt seem right it boggles my mind to think about it.

Please analyze the verses first and what it is they refer to before addressing the issue of predestination.
I look forward to reading your thoughts.

yes. it is telling me that God does have wrath and wicked are reserved for that final judgment. Some people think God is playing games.
People choose to love or be wicked. I dont believe God makes anyone wicked either. the perfect example is there with Lucifer in the beginning.

I believe predestination, sovereignty of God and free will, are all present and working at the same time. I used to have a hard time seeing it all that way, then one day it clicked.
"Heaven and earth shall pass away ... of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." Matthew 24:35-36

But heaven and earth shall pass away - this much is predetermined.

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:"
Ephesians 1:4

So are we likewise pre-determined?

We exist - so we are 'chosen in him', as Colossians tells us: "And he is before all things, and by him all things consist" (Col 1:17)

We are chosen to exist, and we are thereby chosen to play our part in the realisation of the Cosmic Theophany - the Redemption of the World - BUT we are nevertheless free to accept or refuse this destiny, to accept or deny God, and by this although our path is predetermined - for it lies in the Will of God, not in the will of man - there is no guarantee that we will 'take up our cross and follow', in which case, we go our own way, `and when the end comes, we find there is nowhere for us to go.

Thus God creates no man to be damned, but by the same token nor does he create any man to be saved - it is our choice to say yes or no.

Doesn't it also say in the Psalms "Enter not into judgement with thy servant, O Lord, for in thy sight shall no man living be justified". I believe that even thinking in terms of "the wicked" (that's other people) and "the saved" (that's us) is an error. God's love is unbounded and unconditional. That's all we need to remember, and to try to be like that.
Doesn't it also say in the Psalms "Enter not into judgement with thy servant, O Lord, for in thy sight shall no man living be justified". I believe that even thinking in terms of "the wicked" (that's other people) and "the saved" (that's us) is an error. God's love is unbounded and unconditional. That's all we need to remember, and to try to be like that.
Very Nice verse to use for this thread.

I believe you are thinking in the same terms as I am.
These verses trouble me because they could lead to some very judgemental attitudes if misinterpreted.
The fact that No living Man could endure Gods judgement or be justified by their own actions. Puts us all in the (wicked) seat.
We all fall under the Law Sin=Death from Birth.

I would be more apt to say the "Wicked" (thats the whole world) and "The Saved" (thats those who acknowledge their wickdness and struggle to work out there salvation with God on a personal level.) But still I have know way of knowing the heart of a man and therefore cannot judge one from the other.

My biggest problem with Pre-Destination is Names being Blotted out of the Lambs Book of Life. The way I read that is a name could be entered than choices made in life that get you removed. That doesnt fit with the concept.
i think there is an us and them. Jesus taught on this. The goats on his left, the sheep on his right. The wheat and the tares. The catch is that God will do the plucking and He will not let the tares smother the wheat. So yes we have to be careful with that because when it is a young seedling, we could mistake a tare for wheat.

The scripture also teaches us we can test the spirits to see if they are of God. Testing and judging is different.

Predestination and the will of man is present at the same time. I think Thomas did a nice job on his post.
I will get back with the book of life and some other things soon.
Basstian said:
On a funny side note

I just looked down at similiar threads and Oujii Boards was down there ?????
:D :D :D *big Laugh*
I know. there is all kinds of stuff like that. This is going to take me awhile to pull together. We must be on the same wave length so to speak, because I have been wanting to put this thread up for over a week now.;)
It is complicated, no doubt. So in between we can play the Oujii Board. :D

There is more than one book, so we have to be able to distinguish them. Here is some of it to start. I have not studied this for a long time.

Num. 14, the Book of the Wars of the Lord, Ps 69:28 and Isa. 4:3 Book of the Living; Mal 3:16, Book of Remembrance, Rev. 20-12, Lamb's Book of Life. There are also many books in keeping the record of an individuals life.

Exod. 32:33: "And the LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book."

Ps. 139:16: "Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them." God knows who are his, even before they are born, everyone who lives is written in the book of life.

The book of life is a old and new testament doctrine. Phil 4:3 Paul recognized those who labored with him in the gospel, 'with Clement also, and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the Book of Life.

Rev.3:5: "Hethat overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." We overcome by our faith which is exhibited by faithfulness.

It is hard to grasp that kind of wisdom. God knows ahead of time, they who are His. Yet he still (through the fulness of time) lets everyone walk and do what they want to do. There is a book (record) of life, then there is a lambs book of life. I think they are different books.

Daniel also prophesied the judgment with books open. Dan 7:10 A river of fire was flowing, coming out from before him. Thousands upon thousands attended him; ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him. The court was seated, and the books were opened. Also in Dan.12 he mentions a time when Israel will be delivered and there will be those found written in the book.

I think maybe, the Lambs book is refering to those found in the new covenant of Jesus.
Well it really depends whether you embrace the GOD of wrath in the OT or the GOD of Love in the NT.

The choice is yours whether to embrace darkness or light and so it is for man in all of his reality. What one think's one does create that is the perfect universe GOD created the foundation of the world he refers to in Matthew. And so souls create their own destiny through their free will but they are also use their free will to choose the journey pre-incarnation.

Jesus came to teach us love and that GOD is Love but yet 2,000 years later humanity still has not got it....still there are crimes against humanity and betrayal of Jesus and his love.


Kim xx
God created light and he created darkness. We were made in God's image.

Genesis1:26, Then God said, " Let Us make man in our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth an over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and femaleHe created them.

Notice the use of us. There appears to have been more than one God here.

God is male and female in likeness.
Dear Didymus

didymus said:
Notice the use of us. There appears to have been more than one God here.
God is male and female in likeness.

Yes I noticed that the other day fascinating isn't it? I wonder how the church explain that one away. I must check the NIV and see what it says there.

Love beyond measure

Kim xx
Yes its the same in the NIV

26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life:
and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life;
but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Proverbs 16 NIV

The universal natural laws are clearly demonstrated here.

1 To man belong the plans of the heart,

    but from the LORD comes the reply of the tongue.


    2 All a man's ways seem innocent to him,

    but motives are weighed by the LORD .


    3 Commit to the LORD whatever you do,

    and your plans will succeed.


    4 The LORD works out everything for his own ends-

    even the wicked for a day of disaster.


    5 The LORD detests all the proud of heart.

    Be sure of this: They will not go unpunished.


    6 Through love and faithfulness sin is atoned for;

    through the fear of the LORD a man avoids evil.


    7 When a man's ways are pleasing to the LORD ,

    he makes even his enemies live at peace with him.


    8 Better a little with righteousness

    than much gain with injustice.


    9 In his heart a man plans his course,

    but the LORD determines his steps.


    10 The lips of a king speak as an oracle,

    and his mouth should not betray justice.


    11 Honest scales and balances are from the LORD ;

    all the weights in the bag are of his making.


    12 Kings detest wrongdoing,

    for a throne is established through righteousness.


    13 Kings take pleasure in honest lips;

    they value a man who speaks the truth.


    14 A king's wrath is a messenger of death,

    but a wise man will appease it.


    15 When a king's face brightens, it means life;

    his favor is like a rain cloud in spring.


    16 How much better to get wisdom than gold,

    to choose understanding rather than silver!


    17 The highway of the upright avoids evil;

    he who guards his way guards his life.


    18 Pride goes before destruction,

    a haughty spirit before a fall.


    19 Better to be lowly in spirit and among the oppressed

    than to share plunder with the proud.


    20 Whoever gives heed to instruction prospers,

    and blessed is he who trusts in the LORD .


    21 The wise in heart are called discerning,

    and pleasant words promote instruction. [a]


    22 Understanding is a fountain of life to those who have it,

    but folly brings punishment to fools.


    23 A wise man's heart guides his mouth,

    and his lips promote instruction.


    24 Pleasant words are a honeycomb,

    sweet to the soul and healing to the bones.


    25 There is a way that seems right to a man,

    but in the end it leads to death.


    26 The laborer's appetite works for him;

    his hunger drives him on.


    27 A scoundrel plots evil,

    and his speech is like a scorching fire.


    28 A perverse man stirs up dissension,

    and a gossip separates close friends.


    29 A violent man entices his neighbor

    and leads him down a path that is not good.


    30 He who winks with his eye is plotting perversity;

    he who purses his lips is bent on evil.


    31 Gray hair is a crown of splendor;

    it is attained by a righteous life.


    32 Better a patient man than a warrior,

    a man who controls his temper than one who takes a city.


    33 The lot is cast into the lap,

    but its every decision is from the LORD .

John 3:30-36 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)

Joh 3:30-36

30 He must become greater; I must become less.

31 “The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all.

32 He testifies to what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony.

33 The man who has accepted it has certified that God is truthful.

34 For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit.

35 The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands.

36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.”

As Paul said Christ is within us all, when one rejects the Christ within we also reject our own light, and when we resist the light the darkness can increase which then creates its own wrath because of the universal laws that GOD put in place.

For instance Depression can be explained as a lack of light and the light of love.

being love

Kim xx
Bandit, Genesis 1:27, So God created man in his own image; in the image of God he created him; male and female He created them.
he created him
there is no male or female in spirit. I do not see more than one God here anywhere in genises.

male and female He created them
again I see HE created THEM. Man can also refer to woman in the flesh or both at the same time but not in the spirit. God is ONE spirit and has no gender.

Me Myself an I.

I dont know how predestination and free will turned into the creation of man and God being more than one God. Nope. I am not falling for the Sophia Holy Ghost and God being different persons. It is always the same argument that creeps into every Christian thread.

1 Now these are the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments, which the LORD your God commanded to teach you, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go to possess it:
2 That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged.
3 Hear therefore, O Israel, and observe to do it; that it may be well with thee, and that ye may increase mightily, as the LORD God of thy fathers hath promised thee, in the land that floweth with milk and honey.

4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
Well it really depends whether you embrace the GOD of wrath in the OT or the GOD of Love in the NT.
Where does it Say to Switch Gods when you Get to the NT :confused:

Ok nevermind that Any Body reading this Thread I would still Like to address the original verses mentioned not be drug off into La La Love land again.

Bandit, you are in extreme denial. The words appear before your very eyes but yet you refuse to acknowledge what it says. How do you interpret us as me myself and I?

Are you saying Genesis was wrong? Admit that there is a discrepancy here.

It says that God gave us dominion over the earth and it also says in Genesis 1:29 i have given you every green herb that yields seed which is on the face of the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed, to you it shall be for food.

now let's stroll over to Genesis 2:16 and the Lord God commanded the man saying,"of every tree of the garden you may freely eat, but of the tree of knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you will surely die."

Didn't God just say in chapter 1 we had dominion and could eat from any tree whose fruit yields seed?

What is your interpretation here?