Need Serious Help With This One :)

[Bandit]

Bandit, you are in extreme denial. The words appear before your very eyes but yet you refuse to acknowledge what it says. How do you interpret us as me myself and I?

i do not see any conversation there as if God is speaking to another god and waiting for some kind of reply from someone. The only thing I am denying is that there is more than one God. I see that as a statement spoken by the one God.

"Let us make soup" If I am the only one in the kitchen, then it is me, myself and I.
This is the spoken WORD. When God spoke-IT HAPPENED!

There is no male or female in spirit. The Lord our God is ONE.

What is your interpretation here?

We have to follow the order of events. The bible is not written in chronological order of events all the the time like a novel. It flips around in time sometimes.

Adam could eat of every tree EXCEPT the tree of good and evil. It was a commandment NOT to eat off that one tree.
I would have to say the commandment came after God gave Adam dominion, not before.
It is not a contradiction if you think. You have to keep the events in order and understand that or everything gets all mixed up.

But Hey- I guess we can mix it up any way we want to and come up with just about anything. THAT is when it appears there is conflict.

 

[Quahom1]

where does the bible say this?

In Genesis, God implies a duality to God's nature, just prior to making man. No matter how one looks at it, the book of Genesis alludes to duality, and confirms it (apparently) in the creation of Man in God's image, male and female. Not to mean that God is male and female, but that there is duality in God's nature, which is manifest in the creation of Mankind as male and female (duality).

I spoke on this yesterday in another thread.

http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/showthread.php?p=23750#post23750

It is just a thought, but it arose from various biblical passages.

v/r

Q

 

[Bandit]

I can agree with duality. Maybe in essence and in nature like you say Quahom but more or less in thought, feelings and action. I can see a dual nature as in love and wrath or peace and anger, because even man has this ability. We have to remember God had all the thoughts there before he ever made it all happen. The Word AND GOD SAID is not necessarily a verbal spoken word, yet it is still the spoken WORD.

I dont think God was literally speaking to anyone in Genises. If others want to believe God was speaking to other gods, that is up to them.
At the most He may have been refering to the angels. But I dont think angels have the power to create people and things in earth and heaven.
I actually see God as the male and the people as his female (but not literal). This is why Israel is refered to as a woman to God and the church is refered to as a woman (bride) to Jesus. This is not literal gender. However God is strong and man is weak. God made man with the ability to procreate himself in the flesh. God does not have this ability. He can only make and create, yet begets the spirit of man through a spiritual adoption.

I believe God is ONE spirit (soul). I see the seven spirits of God as (ATTRIBUTES) that make Him plural. However when you go Father, son, holy ghost and you start making up things like one of these entities is a female, then we have failed to compare that which is spirit to spirit (no gender) and that which is flesh which does have gender...and we are right back into the same old pagan myths of Rome and Egypt.

Then we add the seven spirits to the trinity theory and now we are looking at 10 spirits with gods and goddesses floating around in our heads.

Sorry Christians, I love you all very much, but I have to go with the Muslims and the Jews when it comes to God being ONE. The scripture is very clear to me on this.
One entity but can be manifested in many ways and have many titles and probably this duality if we understand it properly.

We have to focus on the man Jesus and search the scriptures with a fine tooth comb and what has been said through the entire bible about Jesus if we truly want to better understand what God is about and his purpose with us...and even then we have only begun to scratch the surface of His infinite wisdom.

Isa 11:2-4
2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:

Hey Basstian sorry about that. Need Serious Help With This One
I dont know how it got off into all this. I was really wanting to study predestination and free will. LOL

Maybe we can all start a different thread and call it predestination and free will...and leave this one for stuff that needs serious help with. (tease)

 

[Quahom1]

...Hey Basstian sorry about that. Need Serious Help With This One
I dont know how it got off into all this. I was really wanting to study predestination and free will. LOL

Maybe we can all start a different thread and call it predestination and free will...and leave this one for stuff that needs serious help with. (tease)

I'm not the brightest bulb on the tree, but I recognize this as a cut off, which is fine with me. However, I was specifically answering a question you posed in this particular thread...

Quote:
God is male and female in likeness
"where does the bible say this?" Bandit Quote.

I understand duality. It is in me. I got it from God. The masculine part of me is dominant (as it should be for my particular makeup), but the feminine part of me is also there (in my breaking heart over children and animals, and people in sad state of affairs, I suppose). The feminine side in me is also strong in "killing" the enemy who would attack my home...it just happens to be backed up by the masculine side which is capable of carrying out that edict...

Do you see, how the two work now? The Duality of God, the nature of male and female in the Divine plan...Man and wife, two parts describing the whole of God, in a way. But God has both parts within...else where would we have come up with the concept, let alone the physical designs...?

v/r

Q

 

[Bandit]

yah. in nature. you can kill someone or rescue someone. That same ability (duality) would also have to apply to God as it does with man and it could not just stop with the female/male duality in nature.

but there is no literal male/female gender in the spirit because spirits cant have S-X. that is why he created man and woman with that function.

my bulb is burning out. i better turn in.
goodnight all.

 

[Basstian]

I was really going to try to stay out of this one
I have no problem with saying God knows and understands and has feminine traits. It makes Him an all knowing God.

But I see great danger of deception in adding to or taking away from the 66 books we call scripture.

I would have to see God refered to as or the spirit refered to as Mother in at least two very clear verses before I would accept even beginning to consider the idea.

Dont go telling me rome screwed up the Bible its quoted to much in this thread for that. If you really believed it is that bad you wouldnt use it.

Jesus prayed Our Father which art in heaven.

Why isnt that good enough?

 

[Bandit]

I was really going to try to stay out of this one
I have no problem with saying God knows and understands and has feminine traits. It makes Him an all knowing God.

But I see great danger of deception in adding to or taking away from the 66 books we call scripture.

I would have to see God refered to as or the spirit refered to as Mother in at least two very clear verses before I would accept even beginning to consider the idea.

Dont go telling me rome screwed up the Bible its quoted to much in this thread for that. If you really believed it is that bad you wouldnt use it.

Jesus prayed Our Father which art in heaven.

Why isnt that good enough?

I cant sleep. That is kind of what i am saying, but i understand the duality of ONE God in nature but not a literal male/female or that He is comes in many different multiple spirits. We also get into a problem when you start seeing worship the EARTH MOTHER and Sophia the Holy Ghost and I as far as I can see even the old saying MARY THE MOTHER OF GOD.
This is the direction I wont go because these things are mans ideas and all stem from pagan myths. Sure, they are in other writings, but not in the 66 books. This is where some keep slipping back into that thought.


Rome did not mess with the bible. It turned out exactly the way God wanted it to.

I would have to see God refered to as or the spirit refered to as Mother in at least two very clear verses before I would accept even beginning to consider the idea.

Our Father which art in heaven. In Jesus name Amen. Is good enough for me.

 

[didymus]

I think what we need to keep in mind here is that the creation theory is a myth and should be read as so. Everybody knows that the garden of eden and such related stories have strong similarities to ancient sumer and mesopatamia.
Obviosly noone was there to record it. It shows to me man';s early conception of God and creation. It is fascinating.

Bandit. Your theory of me myself and I is ........well let me just say that is a unique interpretation. It clearly says us. I believe that in those days they believed in more than one God and it s apparent in the writing.

I believe that God's spirit is both male and female and I have no problem with it. If God created all and is all then that doesn't exclude anything.

Here is another verse we can discuss

Genesis 3: 22 Then the Lord God said, "behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"

It seems that God here feared that man would become like him or should I say them. So he banished him from the garden of eden. He also feared that man would eat of the tree of life and live forever.

 

[Bandit]

I am always amazed at how ONE always means ONE in number, but when it comes to God, some insist on making him plural as if there is more than ONE.
1=1
ONE=ONE
One God=One God

You might consider debating this with the Jews and Muslims because I am quickly losing interest.

Genesis 3: 22 Then the Lord God said, "behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"

It seems that God here feared that man would become like him or should I say them. So he banished him from the garden of eden. He also feared that man would eat of the tree of life and live forever.

1)In the beginning...If you believe God was literally speaking to other gods, then why dont these other gods ever speak back to God?
2)Why is there no record of conversation between God and gods?.?.?
3)Why does not God refer to these other gods that you suppose, and call them YOU and THEY and distinguish them?
4)Why cannot US WE OUR, OURSELF refer to the attributes and personality(s) of one being and one mind?


I will never be convinced there is more than one God but if you want to believe God was speaking to another god that is up to you. This is why i wont go any farther than the possiblity of God speaking to angels (which He created) in these verses.
I STILL do not see any conversation there or reply from any other person or god.
You are looking at it as if God was literally having a conversation with someone. I dont see it that way.
I am not getting into The tree of life right now.

It clearly says us. I believe that in those days they believed in more than one God and it s apparent in the writing.

The righteous seed and Jewish faith has never believed there is more than one God or that God is more than one person.

I think what we need to keep in mind here is that the creation theory is a myth and should be read as so. Everybody knows that the garden of eden and such related stories have strong similarities to ancient sumer and mesopatamia.

YOU keep that in YOUR mind.
If you are looking for a creation debate you need to find someone else.

I do not believe Gen. 1 is a myth, but if others want to, that is there choice. I find the story of creation mentioned in detail throughout the other books of the bible. The Genises story is backed by the rest of the bible many many times. The days and acts of creation, Adam and Eve, Seth, Enoch, Cain and Able... is there all the way through. You dont have to believe like I do. Whatever happened on earth before Adam I am not real concerned with. I do not believe we are offspring from tadpoles and monkeys.

I believe that God's spirit is both male and female and I have no problem with it. If God created all and is all then that doesn't exclude anything.

The scripture does not say this. Masculine and femine maybe, but not male and female. There is a difference and there is no gender in spirit.

"us":


587 'anachnuw an-akh'-noo apparently from 595; we:--ourselves, us, we. 3027 yad yawd a primitive word; a hand (the open one (indicating power, means, direction, etc.), in distinction from 3709, the closed one); used (as noun, adverb, etc.) in a great variety of applications, both literally and figuratively, both proximate and remote (as follows):--(+ be) able, X about, + armholes, at, axletree, because of, beside, border, X bounty, + broad, (broken-)handed, X by, charge, coast, + consecrate, + creditor, custody, debt, dominion, X enough, + fellowship, force, X from, hand(-staves, -y work), X he, himself, X in, labour, + large, ledge, (left-)handed, means, X mine, ministry, near, X of, X order, ordinance, X our, parts, pain, power, X presumptuously, service, side, sore, state, stay, draw with strength, stroke, + swear, terror, X thee, X by them, X themselves, X thine own, X thou, through, X throwing, + thumb, times, X to, X under, X us, X wait on, (way-)side, where, + wide, X with (him, me, you), work, + yield, X yourselves.
5869 `ayin ah'-yin probably a primitive word; an eye (literally or figuratively); by analogy, a fountain (as the eye of the landscape):--affliction, outward appearance, + before, + think best, colour, conceit, + be content, countenance, + displease, eye((-brow), (-d), -sight), face, + favour, fountain, furrow (from the margin), X him, + humble, knowledge, look, (+ well), X me, open(-ly), + (not) please, presence, + regard, resemblance, sight, X thee, X them, + think, X us, well, X you(-rselves).
6005 `Immanuw'el im-maw-noo-ale' from 5973 and 410 with a pronominal suffix inserted; with us (is) God; Immanuel, a type name of Isaiah's son:--Immanuel.



587 'anachnuw an-akh'-noo apparently from 595; we:--ourselves, us, we. 589 'aniy an-ee' contracted from 595; I:--I, (as for) me, mine, myself, we, X which, X who.
595 'anokiy aw-no-kee' sometimes {aw-no'-kee}; a primitive pro.; I:--I, me, X which.

2248 hemas hay-mas' accusative case plural of 1473; us:--our, us, we.
2249 hemeis hay-mice' nominative plural of 1473; we (only used when emphatic):--us, we (ourselves).
2254 hemin hay-meen' dative case plural of 1473; to (or for, with, by) us:--our, (for) us, we.
2257 hemon hay-mone' genitive case plural of 1473; of (or from) us:--our (company), us, we.

 

[didymus]

Bandit, i am not saying that there is more than one or that there ever was more than one god. i'm reading what is in the bible. my point is that they who wrote the book may have believed in more than one god.
i got news for you, the garden of eden is not exclusive to the jewish religion. read up on the sumerians, legends of gilgamesh and you'll see. remember abraham came out of ur, which was in ancient sumer. at that time there wasn't a jewish religion. they got their creation and garden story from other sources, or are you gonna tell me that satan did that too?

and to comment on the use of us in genesis. us means us. god wasn't making soup in the kitchen talking to himself. man wrote this and that is how man saw God at that time. man seemed to view god in the plural or so it would seem from what it says in genesis.

 

[Basstian]

http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=18
Here is the link for the mythology forum.

There is no plural form in these verses neither is there female.

Ro 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Ro 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Ro 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Ro 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Ro 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

Ro 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

 

[Sacredstar]

Dear Basstian

Yes this confirms what I have received; men changed the truth and told many lies and this can be found in some of the scripture. Jesus was betrayed by Jews and Christians alike hence why it is so important we continue to question and follow our own hearts and the insights we receive directly in communion with GOD.

Here is the NIV version of this passage from Romans.

20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities–his eternal power and divine nature–have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

I understand this to mean that GOD is to be seen in everything and everywhere.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.

25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator–who is forever praised. Amen.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.

27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, Godhaters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

The GOD I know would not say these things above, GOD most merciful, compassionate, forgiving and loving, IME it is only man that judges and it is man that wrote the words above for they are not inspired with love and GOD's grace.

Being Love Kim xx

 

[Bandit]

Bandit, i am not saying that there is more than one or that there ever was more than one god. i'm reading what is in the bible. my point is that they who wrote the book may have believed in more than one god.
i got news for you, the garden of eden is not exclusive to the jewish religion. read up on the sumerians, legends of gilgamesh and you'll see. remember abraham came out of ur, which was in ancient sumer. at that time there wasn't a jewish religion. they got their creation and garden story from other sources, or are you gonna tell me that satan did that too?

and to comment on the use of us in genesis. us means us. god wasn't making soup in the kitchen talking to himself. man wrote this and that is how man saw God at that time. man seemed to view god in the plural or so it would seem from what it says in genesis.

my point is that they who wrote the book may have believed in more than one god

this is your assumption. I dont care who believes, some mystic wrote the bible who believed in more than ONE God. That is not what I believe.

No, you have failed to answer my questions.
1)In the beginning...If you believe God was literally speaking to other gods, then why dont these other gods ever speak back to God?
2)Why is there no record of conversation between God and gods?.?.?
3)Why does not God refer to these other gods that you suppose, and call them YOU and THEY and distinguish them?
4)Why cannot US WE OUR, OURSELF refer to the attributes and personality(s) of one being and one mind?

Here is one for extra measure...
5) Why dont these other gods speak toward the ONE God if US is refering to other gods?

...as if God cannot speak and have thoughts of His own however He chooses to.

You are persuaded and attempt to break down the bible and believe what is myth to your own satisfaction according to other writings so that you can break down other parts of the bible you do not believe in and incorporate the modern books you believe in by removing what you do not believe in. You have been very much so influenced by gnosticism and mysticism and you can deny it, but it is written all over your speech.

The bible keeps track of the righteous seed for a reason, and for not every single thing that was written by others throught the times.

What I am going tell you is, have this discussion of ONE God with a bible believing Jew and see how far you get. Abraham was a Jew and is in the line of Adam who was created by the ONE God. You have not followed the story because you do not believe in the whole story.
You can take this to Judaism or Islam. It does not have to be only in Christianity.

You have already stated you believe the creation story of Adam and Eve is a myth. The virgin birth is a myth. You are also attempting to make God male and female which is not in the bible.
I disagree and will always disagree. We have stated our beliefs...end of discussion. There are many people who will love to debate this with you. I am not one of them.
it is a waste of time.
View US to the ONE God, and see it however best fits your needs.

 

[Quahom1]

I was really going to try to stay out of this one
I have no problem with saying God knows and understands and has feminine traits. It makes Him an all knowing God.

But I see great danger of deception in adding to or taking away from the 66 books we call scripture.

I would have to see God refered to as or the spirit refered to as Mother in at least two very clear verses before I would accept even beginning to consider the idea.

Dont go telling me rome screwed up the Bible its quoted to much in this thread for that. If you really believed it is that bad you wouldnt use it.

Jesus prayed Our Father which art in heaven.

Why isnt that good enough?

It is good enough. However this is a debate dag nab it. Now I never stated that the Judaeo/Christian God ever referred to Himself as a female, just that He said, "let us make man in our image...and He made them, male and female." That my friend leads to questions about the nature of the Almighty, at least for me. I opine it is an answer I will not find, until I get orders to transfer from this duty station, to the next...

v/r

Q

 

[didymus]

wow. everytime you write back i feel that you didn't understand what i said. I believe in one god. i never said that i believed in more than one. i said the way it is written in genesis appears to reflect that the author of genesis believed there was more than one god. whoever wrote genesis said us, i didn't use that word, i am merely pointing it out.

so to answer your question of why other gods aren't answering back, that is beyond my knowledge. i can't answer this for you anymore than you can tell me why god is referred to in the plural, maybe we should go to the jewish board and see what they say. maybe they'll shed some light on this.

i repeat, gnosticism and mysticism had and have nothing to do with my opinion. try being in christian circles for 12 years and never getting a straight answer from them on these legitimate questions. that was the motivator, not gnosticism. it doesn't take a rocket scientist to read and form an opinion on what was read.

 

[Quahom1]

this is your assumption. I dont care who believes, some mystic wrote the bible who believed in more than ONE God. That is not what I believe.

But wasn't Moses originally a believer in several gods, for a time?

No, you have failed to answer my questions.
1)In the beginning...If you believe God was literally speaking to other gods, then why dont these other gods ever speak back to God?

The Father exclaimed His pleasure with His Son, after Jesus' baptism, and others heard Him speak to and about His Son?

2)Why is there no record of conversation between God and gods?.?.?

"Let us make man in OUR image and likeness...", is not a conversation?

3)Why does not God refer to these other gods that you suppose, and call them YOU and THEY and distinguish them?

Jesus spoke directly to the Father in the garden, and asked Him to take away the cup, but then recanted and stated "Not my will, but Thy Will be done."

4)Why cannot US WE OUR, OURSELF refer to the attributes and personality(s) of one being and one mind?

Because it might be considered a symptom of Schizophrenia?

Here is one for extra measure...
5) Why dont these other gods speak toward the ONE God if US is refering to other gods?.

Jesus advised us over and over that He is in the Father and the Father is in Him, and they are the same. He also adised that before the Holy Spirit could decend here, that Jesus would have to ascend into Heaven.

Ok, I'm outta here. My questions are rhetorical, and need no answers. I'm just trying to lighten the mood.

Jesus is Lord, and that is what matters.

v/r

Q

 

[Bandit]

Jesus is Lord, and that is what matters.

Amen Quahom. Lord and Savior. Son of the living God. Ruler of all nations. prince of Peace. He died was buried and rose again. Through his blood we have remission of sin he and is the author and finisher of our faith.

Ok, I'm outta here. My questions are rhetorical, and need no answers. I'm just trying to lighten the mood.

I am out of here too

 

[Bandit]

hey Basstian can we start a new thread and name it predestination and free will?

whenever.

 

[Basstian]

LoL I thought I had a nice peacful topic that we could use not to Debate but further our understanding.

How we got from that point to this is way beyond me......

Start the thread than get ready because the (I Dont Need No Bible I Can Make It Up As I Go Folks) will come there too

Hey EveryBody Bandit is starting a new thread based on Scripture ......CHARGE.......!!!

 

[Sacredstar]

LOL

It also talks about GOD's in plural and dimensions in the NIV which should be fun.

I recommed that those that haven't read the translations of the Bible begin to read them, they are enlightening and I am sure if the KJV had been the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth Christianity would have had many more followers.

I guess we are coming to a timespan when GOD as decided to broaden our view of the inspired word hence the new bible.

Onwards an upwards

Love beyond measure

Kim xx