S
Sacredstar
Guest
Dear sangam
Sometimes it is very hard to think back to the way things used to be but I will try.
When I was young belief was inherited from parents and religious education.
So I remained a true skeptic of anything without proof but was always at one with GOD in nature and turned to Jesus and GOD in trouble.
As I grew older more and more proof was provided through the evidence of my experience of a greater power above, and through this experience my faith grew and grew until there was no doubt left only total and complete trust.
I then got to the point that I did not need inherited beliefs anymore.
So next is for me to define 'belief' and what that means to me.
Belief is something rigid that does not change or evolve and the only constant in the universe is change, so for me rigid beliefs that do not change are un-natural and are like being stuck on a buoy which is very unhealthy.
Now some would say surely you have belief because you trust GOD with your whole being and that does not change. But my response is yes it does change because it gets stronger and evolves like a good marriage, it is never static.
The insights gained mature like a good wine and the new experiences are joyful, romantic and an exciting adventure. Every new step on the journey opens up another new dimension of reality which is awesome!
Blessings in abundance
Kim xx
Sometimes it is very hard to think back to the way things used to be but I will try.
When I was young belief was inherited from parents and religious education.
So I remained a true skeptic of anything without proof but was always at one with GOD in nature and turned to Jesus and GOD in trouble.
As I grew older more and more proof was provided through the evidence of my experience of a greater power above, and through this experience my faith grew and grew until there was no doubt left only total and complete trust.
I then got to the point that I did not need inherited beliefs anymore.
So next is for me to define 'belief' and what that means to me.
Belief is something rigid that does not change or evolve and the only constant in the universe is change, so for me rigid beliefs that do not change are un-natural and are like being stuck on a buoy which is very unhealthy.
Now some would say surely you have belief because you trust GOD with your whole being and that does not change. But my response is yes it does change because it gets stronger and evolves like a good marriage, it is never static.
The insights gained mature like a good wine and the new experiences are joyful, romantic and an exciting adventure. Every new step on the journey opens up another new dimension of reality which is awesome!
Blessings in abundance
Kim xx
ISFP
Well-Known Member
hey sacred-
my own faith is very, very strong, yes. my faith is proven to me daily, in the relationships i hold with others, through love and through reaching out.
i know that sounds kinda vague, sorry. what i place my faith in is touch, reaching out. reaching out and touching the transcendent, another person, or one's own self. i don't know if i believe in a god. but i do believe in the power of making contact with something beyond an/or within one's finite self.
i've seen that power save lives, uplift, and give hope. it's something that is potentially always with me, though untimately the choice to reach out and make that contact is my own.
thank you for your question, sacred. it got me thinking, thank you.
my own faith is very, very strong, yes. my faith is proven to me daily, in the relationships i hold with others, through love and through reaching out.
i know that sounds kinda vague, sorry. what i place my faith in is touch, reaching out. reaching out and touching the transcendent, another person, or one's own self. i don't know if i believe in a god. but i do believe in the power of making contact with something beyond an/or within one's finite self.
i've seen that power save lives, uplift, and give hope. it's something that is potentially always with me, though untimately the choice to reach out and make that contact is my own.
thank you for your question, sacred. it got me thinking, thank you.
hello ISFPISFP said:
Is it a different power that makes orphans of young children, allows paedophilia, slavery, holocaust, mental illness, tsunamis, darfur tragedy, etc?
What effect does this thought have on your belief? Do you choose to go the ostrich way or are you able to integrate it with the image of a benevolent benefactor.
hello sacred-
Thanks for your explanation. Must admit i am not able to relate to it yet. But would not God instil belief and faith in us if He chooses to. What is your view on this.
regards
lunamoth
Episcopalian
Hello Sangam, welcome to CR. 
Very thought-provoking questions you ask. Which tradition or religion, if any, do you come from?
peace,
lunamoth
Very thought-provoking questions you ask. Which tradition or religion, if any, do you come from?
peace,
lunamoth
ISFP
Well-Known Member
hey, sangam
you raise good points. i know there is suffering in the world. like mots if not all religious people i struggle with how to face suffering and the often inevitable hell that a erson's life can be come.
my only answer has ever been- fight desair with love when and where youhave the oortunity to do so. the power i've talked about can not reverse horrible historical events. it can not prevent suffering on a mass scale, like the holocaust or Darfur.
where i see this power at work is on an individual basis. i see people ulifted. i see eople stare down suffering and and try to work through things and not let the bad things eat them up. no one would deny that there is suffering in the world, and you've got to be both really stupid and untimately inefectual as a ositive force in other's lives if you deny that suffering exists or try andhide from it, or encourage them to ignore or hide from it.
take it one person, one problem at a time. if you're able to help, help. if you're able to prevent further suffering, do so. this is wha touching is about. touching itself can hurt. it can bring ugly burried stuff to the surface. but ultimately, i believe, it's a force for the good.
you raise good points. i know there is suffering in the world. like mots if not all religious people i struggle with how to face suffering and the often inevitable hell that a erson's life can be come.
my only answer has ever been- fight desair with love when and where youhave the oortunity to do so. the power i've talked about can not reverse horrible historical events. it can not prevent suffering on a mass scale, like the holocaust or Darfur.
where i see this power at work is on an individual basis. i see people ulifted. i see eople stare down suffering and and try to work through things and not let the bad things eat them up. no one would deny that there is suffering in the world, and you've got to be both really stupid and untimately inefectual as a ositive force in other's lives if you deny that suffering exists or try andhide from it, or encourage them to ignore or hide from it.
take it one person, one problem at a time. if you're able to help, help. if you're able to prevent further suffering, do so. this is wha touching is about. touching itself can hurt. it can bring ugly burried stuff to the surface. but ultimately, i believe, it's a force for the good.
Paladin
Purchased Bewilderment
Suffering, according to the Buddha, is the result of ignorance. I can attest to at least a little of this for I have felt the suffering of my own ignorance. We have a choice as to what beliefs rule our lives, whether we choose to believe in a supreme deity or not is up to us and actually matters little. What really matters is what we do with our thoughts and where they are directed. If we believe in two powers, then we experience the consequences of that belief. The point here is that we are living out the effect of what we hold in our minds regardless of what that is.
Remember that Arjuna was upbraided by Lord Krishna for throwing down his weapons and refusing to be part of death and destruction any longer, but what did that mean? Since the Gita promotes non-violence it would seem antithetical no? But what if this is a metaphor pointing to what Arjuna could be doing with his mind? Perhaps Lord Krishna was in effect encouraging him to " Take up arms against a sea of troubles, and by opposing, end them" (Apologies to Shakespere fans)
The six syllable mantra used by some Buddhists Om Mani Padme Hum means the Jewel of the Mind in the Lotus of the Heart. Perhaps it is here that we begin to resolve the apparent paradox of a Being of Ultimate Good, and the suffering and evil that runs rampant on our planet.
I submit this not as a definitive answer but a beginning of inquiry
Peace!
Remember that Arjuna was upbraided by Lord Krishna for throwing down his weapons and refusing to be part of death and destruction any longer, but what did that mean? Since the Gita promotes non-violence it would seem antithetical no? But what if this is a metaphor pointing to what Arjuna could be doing with his mind? Perhaps Lord Krishna was in effect encouraging him to " Take up arms against a sea of troubles, and by opposing, end them" (Apologies to Shakespere fans)
The six syllable mantra used by some Buddhists Om Mani Padme Hum means the Jewel of the Mind in the Lotus of the Heart. Perhaps it is here that we begin to resolve the apparent paradox of a Being of Ultimate Good, and the suffering and evil that runs rampant on our planet.
I submit this not as a definitive answer but a beginning of inquiry
Peace!
S
Sacredstar
Guest
Dear ISFP
Beautiful posts, thank you for sharing.
yes I agree with you
I feel you experience GOD is everywhere and in everyone.
Love being the binding force.
being love
Kim xx
Beautiful posts, thank you for sharing.
yes I agree with you
I feel you experience GOD is everywhere and in everyone.
Love being the binding force.
being love
Kim xx
Hello Lunamoth,lunamoth said:Hello Sangam, welcome to CR.
Very thought-provoking questions you ask. Which tradition or religion, if any, do you come from?
peace,
lunamoth
Born in a Hindu family, I am Hindu by default. However I don’t have any particular adherences. I practice meditation (kriyayoga, not the technique taught by Yogananda but the original method as introduced by Lahiri Mahashaya) but only erratically as I have not yet been able to discipline my lifestyle.
I am not learned in any scriptures and my understanding of the religion stems from introspection, discussions with friends and from the reading some lectures by Swami Vivekananda.
Hello ISPF
I hope I dont sound extream, but is it not egoistical and presumtive to believe that we can actually reduce suffering. Is not God by definition not dependent on our efforts for.
also, have you asked the people who have overcome difficulties. they might not be attributing it to God, they might say it was their hard work and determination. would it not be unfair to them to belittle their efforts and attribute it to gods blessings.
there are so- many other burning questions rattling in my mind but perhaps it would be narcissistic to go on and on about my impressions and unfair to disturb the strenght of belief in others
S
Sacredstar
Guest
Dear Sangam
1. Well I buy that everything as an important reason for being and that 15% of detrimental things are pre-chosen, pre-incarnation for soul purification. The other 85% is created by free will whilst on the earth plane e.g the physical dimension is the barometer of balance -v- imbalance. So I agree with Paladin here what we think we do indeed create. GOD just allows us to work through our own evolution and GOD of Grace and the legions of light will help us if we ask.
2. Well it is important to learn to walk between the worlds of different consciousness and planes of existence. So consciously aware of the sound and moved to act in response to the pain and suffering in the world but at the same time can see the bigger picture. We choose our reality so no blame on GOD for anything, I feel this is where the ancients went astray they blamed GOD's judgement for everything negative that happened instead of taking responsibility and looking at what they had co-created.
3. Well you have made an excellent point. I guess it depends how people define belief and faith and what that means to them as an individual. Did GOD instill faith in me? Yes but I was a hard nut to crack and the proof was beyond measure. Or was it? The soul knew why I am here and what I am here to do, so I guess it was just a matter of time before I came into full realisation of my reason for being. But GOD never gave up, he kept sending those messengers to cajole, heal, counsel, love and teach me. Ensuring that I arrived at the right place at the right time. Many times I wanted to run away like Prophet Jonah and asked 'why me? Why can't I just be left alone and have a normal and ordinary life?'. We all carry our own cross but glory be to GOD he can and does make the burden light when we allow him to do so. Apologies I am rambling.....it is my butterfly brain.
It is as become very clear to me that GOD is in conscious awareness of justice -v- injustice and in recognition of what we co-create, which is why when humanity go too far astray he sends his messengers to bring forth moral decency and ethics back into line. In my view Messengers have been sent into every culture, race and religion down the history of time. The likes of Buddha, Krishna and Jesus Christ have been very special indeed and some say that Jesus was Krishna in a previous incarnation.
Love beyond measure
kim xx
sangam said:
1. Well I buy that everything as an important reason for being and that 15% of detrimental things are pre-chosen, pre-incarnation for soul purification. The other 85% is created by free will whilst on the earth plane e.g the physical dimension is the barometer of balance -v- imbalance. So I agree with Paladin here what we think we do indeed create. GOD just allows us to work through our own evolution and GOD of Grace and the legions of light will help us if we ask.
2. Well it is important to learn to walk between the worlds of different consciousness and planes of existence. So consciously aware of the sound and moved to act in response to the pain and suffering in the world but at the same time can see the bigger picture. We choose our reality so no blame on GOD for anything, I feel this is where the ancients went astray they blamed GOD's judgement for everything negative that happened instead of taking responsibility and looking at what they had co-created.
3. Well you have made an excellent point. I guess it depends how people define belief and faith and what that means to them as an individual. Did GOD instill faith in me? Yes but I was a hard nut to crack and the proof was beyond measure. Or was it? The soul knew why I am here and what I am here to do, so I guess it was just a matter of time before I came into full realisation of my reason for being. But GOD never gave up, he kept sending those messengers to cajole, heal, counsel, love and teach me. Ensuring that I arrived at the right place at the right time. Many times I wanted to run away like Prophet Jonah and asked 'why me? Why can't I just be left alone and have a normal and ordinary life?'. We all carry our own cross but glory be to GOD he can and does make the burden light when we allow him to do so. Apologies I am rambling.....it is my butterfly brain.
It is as become very clear to me that GOD is in conscious awareness of justice -v- injustice and in recognition of what we co-create, which is why when humanity go too far astray he sends his messengers to bring forth moral decency and ethics back into line. In my view Messengers have been sent into every culture, race and religion down the history of time. The likes of Buddha, Krishna and Jesus Christ have been very special indeed and some say that Jesus was Krishna in a previous incarnation.
Love beyond measure
kim xx
dear sacred
thanks for the detailed explanation. there is something else that creeps on my mind. yes, i agree with most of what you say. however, is there any need of belief or faith in carrying out those actions. is it essential for the good values and ideals to be sanctified before they are followed by one as guiding principals of ones life. is not, by virtue of being a social and co-operative species in general, humans should share each others burden and help each other in times of need. does one need to have a strong belief in god to lead a honest life.
another thing that occurs to me is the method of categorising beliefs as valid or invalid. delusions are defined as fixed, false, firmly held beliefs out of keeping with the individuals socio-cultural background and unaltered by evidence to the contrary. look closely at this definition. we classify beliefs as delusions on rather flimsy grounds. conversly, we classify beliefs as not being delusional on equally flimsy grounds. was the belief of a common man in the times of newton that the earth was flat a delusion? not as per this definition, only because it was in keeping with the sociocultural backgroung. and was not newtons beliefs classified as madness. without hindsight, it would indeed be a difficult proposition to choose which side of the divide to stand on. or would it be? would not most of us join ranks with the common man and lock newton up as they did. a schizophrenic claiming that the secret services are after him sees evidence of it in each eye-contact he makes and in every incident that occurs around him. trapped by our senses, we bow to their dictates.
now for the belief in god. do we jump to conclusions and construe messages and meanings where none exhist? is it appropriate for someone who has not seen god i.e. not self realized to claim on his exhistance? would it not be more honest to refrain from beleiving in in god till we have reached the state of realisation, instead to work diligently to improve our understanding of ourselves and the world around us by introspection, observation, meditation etc. afterall, is that not the path advised by people who have reached that state. does it require belief to walk the path of truth and honesty. is that not supposed to be the right thing to do anyway.can a non-believer not have the qualities that have been mentioned in the preceeding discussions.
thanks for the detailed explanation. there is something else that creeps on my mind. yes, i agree with most of what you say. however, is there any need of belief or faith in carrying out those actions. is it essential for the good values and ideals to be sanctified before they are followed by one as guiding principals of ones life. is not, by virtue of being a social and co-operative species in general, humans should share each others burden and help each other in times of need. does one need to have a strong belief in god to lead a honest life.
another thing that occurs to me is the method of categorising beliefs as valid or invalid. delusions are defined as fixed, false, firmly held beliefs out of keeping with the individuals socio-cultural background and unaltered by evidence to the contrary. look closely at this definition. we classify beliefs as delusions on rather flimsy grounds. conversly, we classify beliefs as not being delusional on equally flimsy grounds. was the belief of a common man in the times of newton that the earth was flat a delusion? not as per this definition, only because it was in keeping with the sociocultural backgroung. and was not newtons beliefs classified as madness. without hindsight, it would indeed be a difficult proposition to choose which side of the divide to stand on. or would it be? would not most of us join ranks with the common man and lock newton up as they did. a schizophrenic claiming that the secret services are after him sees evidence of it in each eye-contact he makes and in every incident that occurs around him. trapped by our senses, we bow to their dictates.
now for the belief in god. do we jump to conclusions and construe messages and meanings where none exhist? is it appropriate for someone who has not seen god i.e. not self realized to claim on his exhistance? would it not be more honest to refrain from beleiving in in god till we have reached the state of realisation, instead to work diligently to improve our understanding of ourselves and the world around us by introspection, observation, meditation etc. afterall, is that not the path advised by people who have reached that state. does it require belief to walk the path of truth and honesty. is that not supposed to be the right thing to do anyway.can a non-believer not have the qualities that have been mentioned in the preceeding discussions.
S
Sacredstar
Guest
Sangam
I hope I have managed to respond to all of our questions but if not please ask more.
No belief in GOD is required to live a beautiful, sacred, pure and ethical life, Buddhism is perfect example of this. Nor is it necessary to have any beliefs at all.
Nothing to me is invalid for everything as a reason for being and as such can be honoured accordingly.
Well often beliefs are illusions, as we change, grow and evolve so do beliefs.
The more we know ourselves the more the illusions internally and externally fall away, (friends with it sometimes) until one gets to the point of where one's vision is sheer with clarity and one realises wholeness and reason for being.
Once one as had mystical experiences there is no doubt.
It is through self realisation that one can find GOD, when you know the self you know GOD and the universe.
Integrity, peace, healing and love helps one to find the happiness within.
Sounds to me like you are on track and know.
Gnosis
Blessings in abundance
Kim xx
sangam said:
I hope I have managed to respond to all of our questions but if not please ask more.
No belief in GOD is required to live a beautiful, sacred, pure and ethical life, Buddhism is perfect example of this. Nor is it necessary to have any beliefs at all.
Nothing to me is invalid for everything as a reason for being and as such can be honoured accordingly.
Well often beliefs are illusions, as we change, grow and evolve so do beliefs.
The more we know ourselves the more the illusions internally and externally fall away, (friends with it sometimes) until one gets to the point of where one's vision is sheer with clarity and one realises wholeness and reason for being.
Once one as had mystical experiences there is no doubt.
It is through self realisation that one can find GOD, when you know the self you know GOD and the universe.
Integrity, peace, healing and love helps one to find the happiness within.
Sounds to me like you are on track and know.
Gnosis
Blessings in abundance
Kim xx