Kingdom of God/Heaven

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didymus

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I am starting a new thread on the kingdom of God. After further review of this I am utterly amazed at what I have found. Never before have I focused only on Jesus' comments of the Kingdom of God. I have noticed that Kingdom of God and Kingdom of Heaven seem to be used interchangeably. I will start this thread in Matthew. I will go verse by verse and hope that you will join me in discussion. I am focusing on whether the use of Kingdom is present or futuristic. it seems 9 times out of 10 Jesus meant present tense. I will start with Matthew 6:33-34. There are many more to follow but one at a time will be easier.

Matthew 6:33-34 " Seek first his kingdom and his righteousness and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own."

This is Jesus speaking of the now. look for his kingdom now, don't worry about tomorrow. I don't think the kingdom in this context is futuristic because he says don't worry about tomorrow. No implication is being madeof eternal life or eternal damnation as a result of seeking or not seeking the kingdom.
 
didymus said:
I am starting a new thread on the kingdom of God. After further review of this I am utterly amazed at what I have found. Never before have I focused only on Jesus' comments of the Kingdom of God. I have noticed that Kingdom of God and Kingdom of Heaven seem to be used interchangeably. I will start this thread in Matthew. I will go verse by verse and hope that you will join me in discussion. I am focusing on whether the use of Kingdom is present or futuristic. it seems 9 times out of 10 Jesus meant present tense. I will start with Matthew 6:33-34. There are many more to follow but one at a time will be easier.

Matthew 6:33-34 " Seek first his kingdom and his righteousness and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own."

This is Jesus speaking of the now. look for his kingdom now, don't worry about tomorrow. I don't think the kingdom in this context is futuristic because he says don't worry about tomorrow. No implication is being madeof eternal life or eternal damnation as a result of seeking or not seeking the kingdom.
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Remember, the Son of God, and the Son of Man were also used interchangeably, often. ;)

v/r

Q
 
This is true, that will be my next study. The doors are opening my friend.
 
Ok, since nobody has responded yet, I'll toss out another.

Matthew 23:13 "woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door on the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves don't enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to."


Jesus appears to be speaking of a present tense Kingdom of God that the Pharisees can not enter due to their rigidity to customs and law. They are preventing others from entering also.
 
didymus said:
Ok, since nobody has responded yet, I'll toss out another.

Matthew 23:13 "woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door on the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves don't enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to."


Jesus appears to be speaking of a present tense Kingdom of God that the Pharisees can not enter due to their rigidity to customs and law. They are preventing others from entering also.
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You might as well be describing Shangri-la. It's not here, not now. All that is here and now is grace, perceverence, trust, faith, and determination, suffering, and HOPE. And you know what? Most of the suffering is not deliberate. It just is.

But I do agree with you that a few, cause the misery of many...I've seen it, despite the best efforts and intentions, a few can foul up the works for the many. Maybe that is the false shepards confusing the sheep syndrome. Who knows?

v/r

Q
 
Interesting verses to be sure. Have you ever considered them from the perspective of the work of Abraham Maslow? In the last verse mentioned Jesus was upbraiding those with a legalistic bent. Maslow noticed that within any spiritual group who followed a leader known for his "Peak" experience,those who did not have or denied having peak experiences often became the legalistic and fundamentalist group organizers, eventually eschewing the very type of mystical experience that they were founded upon. Thus the "Pit of Vipers" might not enter in themselves or allow others to enter in. The Kingdom of Heaven is indeed in the present tense, for did not God say that "I am that I am"? I have never heard it interpreted as "I will be" or "I was"
 
didymus said:
I am starting a new thread on the kingdom of God. After further review of this I am utterly amazed at what I have found. Never before have I focused only on Jesus' comments of the Kingdom of God. I have noticed that Kingdom of God and Kingdom of Heaven seem to be used interchangeably. I will start this thread in Matthew. I will go verse by verse and hope that you will join me in discussion. I am focusing on whether the use of Kingdom is present or futuristic. it seems 9 times out of 10 Jesus meant present tense. I will start with Matthew 6:33-34. There are many more to follow but one at a time will be easier.

Matthew 6:33-34 " Seek first his kingdom and his righteousness and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own."

This is Jesus speaking of the now. look for his kingdom now, don't worry about tomorrow. I don't think the kingdom in this context is futuristic because he says don't worry about tomorrow. No implication is being madeof eternal life or eternal damnation as a result of seeking or not seeking the kingdom.
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i will jump in this later but wont be on until monday Didymus. Yes the kingdom is now but this kingdom is also future and being establsihed over time. If one is trying to say everyone is automatically in the kingdom because of the word WITHIN, we will surely not agree and there are plenty of scriptures to show that.
the only problem is you dont accept the whole bible and a good understanding of it is going to be lost because of that.

when jesus spoke of the kingdom being at hand, it was not right then and there. that means it was close.
no one entered into the kingdom until the day of pentecost when the Holy Ghost (spirit of God) was given...that which was spoken by the prophet Joel.

you have to ENTER the kingdom before it is within you. I dont have time right now for scripture because I am getting ready for a little trip away.

He who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is NOT FIT FOR THE KINGDOM.

not everyone is in the kingdom and not everyone automatically has the kingdom within if that is what you are trying to say.
 
The Kingdom of God was and is being established over time. Its spiritual and Jesus is the only way into it. It wasnt something that was established one day... its a building up of the Kingdom of God with Jesus Christ as the King of King and Lord of Lords. We are supposed to strive for it with all of our hearts and souls with righteousness.
 
Bandit, I agree and disagree with you at the same time. Jsesus clearly referred to the kingdom of God in a present tense here and now, he also referred to it in the future, which would mean it was both. I have documented so far 3 of the 4 gospels in Jesus' use of Kingdom of God and over 85% is spoken of in the present tense. I have almost all passages listed and will go through as many as you guys want to.

Luke 9:27 " I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God." This is present tense. Some listening to Jesus at that moment would enter the kingdom as a result of his preaching.

Matthew 21:31-32 " I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. For John came to show you the way of righteosness and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him"

The above is clearly present tense. In fact Jesus alluded that the tax collectors and prostitutes were entering already by way of John the Baptist!
 
didymus said:
Bandit, I agree and disagree with you at the same time. Jsesus clearly referred to the kingdom of God in a present tense here and now, he also referred to it in the future, which would mean it was both. I have documented so far 3 of the 4 gospels in Jesus' use of Kingdom of God and over 85% is spoken of in the present tense. I have almost all passages listed and will go through as many as you guys want to.

Luke 9:27 " I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God." This is present tense. Some listening to Jesus at that moment would enter the kingdom as a result of his preaching.

Matthew 21:31-32 " I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. For John came to show you the way of righteosness and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him"

The above is clearly present tense. In fact Jesus alluded that the tax collectors and prostitutes were entering already by way of John the Baptist!
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Did, that is hard to refute. Perhaps we do need to find out exactly what Jesus means here. It seems pretty cut and dry. But then, why are we not taught to consider these quotes?...unless He means by their acceptance of Jesus right then and there, they are already one foot into Heaven???...

v/r

q
 
A quick question

How close where the children of Israel to the Kingdom of God when they first went into Canaan?

They relied on God for every need. They followed the Law to the letter. They had no earthly king.

Until those requirements where met they did not get into the promised land.
Interesting parrallel to look at.
 
Basstian said:
A quick question

How close where the children of Israel to the Kingdom of God when they first went into Canaan?

They relied on God for every need. They followed the Law to the letter. They had no earthly king.

Until those requirements where met they did not get into the promised land.
Interesting parrallel to look at.
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It would be interesting to know, did it take them 40 years, or 42 years to get into Canaan?...

There always seems to be a duplicate analogy somewhere in the Bible for every story, have you noticed?

Happy Easter Basstian. :D

v/r

Q
 
I go back to Solomon saying there is nothing new under the sun :D

History does and will continue to repeat itself.
 
Here is another one to ponder:)

Matthew 21:43 " Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to people who will produce its fruit. He who falls on this capstone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed."

This is an interesting one here. It is futuristic but is also pre-death. It speaks in the present though because in order to have the kingdom taken you have to have it in the first place. Those that are currently in the kingdom will be removed from it. It mentions the act of producing fruit. I imagine the fruit produced is here on an earthly plane rather than an eternalistic production of fruit. Jesus is telling them that anybody who abuses their place in the kingdom will be stripped of their place in the Kingdom. Another who is earnest will replace them.

This part of falling on the stone rejected by the builders might have a couple of meanings. He who falls on it; mishandles it or abuses it such as the workers did will be broken. On whom it falls....... this suggests that the person may not have had a choice, the kingdom fell on them? Their old nature will be crushed perhaps. I'm throwing these out there for you. I don't hold firmly to my interpretation of these but am mulling them over.
 
Matthew 21:42-44 Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: 'The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone. This was the Lord's doing, And it is marvelous in our eyes'? "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder."

Once again I say that the worst thing they did was to divide the scriptures up into chapters and verses. You have to read Matthew 21:42 and Matthew 21:44 in order to understand what Jesus is saying.

Who was the stone that the builders rejected that became the chief cornerstone? Yes it was Jesus... which nation were the builders that rejected Christ.. Yes it was Israel.

the cross reference to this:

Matthew 8:10-12 When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, "Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel! And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Might I suggest using KJV or NKJV for your studies? If your really interested in studying the correct translation you can use a greek or hebrew lexicon... e-sword or crosswalk both have good ones. :)
 
Faithfulservant said:
Matthew 21:42-44 Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: 'The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone. This was the Lord's doing, And it is marvelous in our eyes'? "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder."

Once again I say that the worst thing they did was to divide the scriptures up into chapters and verses. You have to read Matthew 21:42 and Matthew 21:44 in order to understand what Jesus is saying.

Who was the stone that the builders rejected that became the chief cornerstone? Yes it was Jesus... which nation were the builders that rejected Christ.. Yes it was Israel.

the cross reference to this:

Matthew 8:10-12 When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, "Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel! And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
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Quite astute,

Jesus is the cornerstone/capstone. We discussed this very issue in another thread, however Jesus is telling the Pharisees that they will stumble because of Him, and (in the end) those who oppose Jesus will be utterly annhailated. I'll have to go back through the threads to find it, because it was rather an intense dialogue for all.

v/r

Q
 
Quahom1 said:
Quite astute,

Jesus is the cornerstone/capstone. We discussed this very issue in another thread, however Jesus is telling the Pharisees that they will stumble because of Him, and (in the end) those who oppose Jesus will be utterly annhailated. I'll have to go back through the threads to find it, because it was rather an intense dialogue for all.

v/r

Q
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yes we did,:) i cannot remember where that was.
i am just going to agree with what ever everyone else says for awhile. it is much easier to just kind of nod and smile.

Jesus is going to stick that sickle into the earth and pull out the ripe grapes.
 
Bandit said:
yes we did,:) i cannot remember where that was.
i am just going to agree with what ever everyone else says for awhile. it is much easier to just kind of nod and smile.

Jesus is going to stick that sickle into the earth and pull out the ripe grapes.
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Does that mean He's going to "squash" the sour grapes and make vinegar?

:D :D :D

You know I can't let that get past...

v/r

Q
 
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