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Conscience

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I have a question that Im hoping you guys can answer. This question, by the way, is for Christiians that believe the Bible is God's words, and 100% true. The question is:

If the Bible says over and again, that God does not advocate homosexuality, why are Christians today saying it is now OK?

Thanks for your help!
 
I have a question for you. If the Bible says that divorce is not permited and speaks of adultery the way it does, why are over half of all christians divorced?
Why is homosexuality given so much more attention than divorce?
 
Didymus,

I dont know if you know this but, a question isnt usually answered with another question. The point of a rebuttle, is to have an "answer." You know? That out the way, I see you're point - adultery is just as bad (In God's eyes) as homosexuality. I am in no way saying is homosexuality is some how a lesser evil, but was just asking why is it that some Christians today chose to neglect the severity of breaking his law that says homosexuality is an abomination to him? Please note, Im just wondering why this is happening.

Now, all that said, the Bible does permit a reason for divorce, and that is if one of the 2 die, or is unfaithful.
 
i dont know why but i know Jesus would still love them just the same. could be the same reason churches think it is ok to gossip, talebare, accuse the bretheren & bear false witness against each other.
I know His Word is 100% true & will not fail, but we still must love one another & try to understand things, even when no one can explain things.
there is a monster thread on this in belief & spiriutality forum.
 
Thanks Bandit for your reply. Before I go on, let me just say that I agree with you - God does STILL love the homosexuals, and does offer both deliverence and forgiveness of sin through Jesus. That said, why do some Christians still say they can be gay and go to Heaven? Do you get my question?
 
Conscience said:
Thanks Bandit for your reply. Before I go on, let me just say that I agree with you - God does STILL love the homosexuals, and does offer both deliverence and forgiveness of sin through Jesus. That said, why do some Christians still say they can be gay and go to Heaven? Do you get my question?
We dont know what the future is for people in there lives & decisions. this is why we cannot say things. People say a lot of things that does not mean I believe it all. If Paul killed thousands of people because they were Christians & we know he will be in heaven because what he did was great unto the gentile, then I think the same will apply to all these areas. We cannot see convicition of a persons heart for what they do, but God can & He knows.

Maybe Try to look at these things as 'a thorn in the side' for individuals. Everyone has something they must seek to overcome & Jesus will separate the goats from the lambs, we dont have to.
I dont preach anyone into heaven OR into the second judgement;)

i try to remember that we are in a time when people say everything is ok, that does not always mean everything is ok.

did you ever consider? that people who say these things do not really know what repentance forgiveness & remission of sin is, or have denied it.

anyway, welcome to the boards & be good.
 
Thanks for the welcome Bandit. But again, Im asking a person that believes the Bible is the Total word of God. The Bible clearly does NOT advocate homosexuality, and uses such words as "abomination" to describe it. My question is, if God said in his word that he does not advocate it, why are some Chrisitans now saying its OK.

About Paul however, he was forgiven of his sins because of what Jesus did on the Cross. Forgiveness of sin, aswell as deliverence from specific sins that keep us as slaves, can be offered when we repent and put our trust in the one who offered himself as a sacrifice to pay the price for our sins -- Yeshua Hamasheck.
 
i dunno. you tell me, since it appears my answers do not satisfy you & that you imply i do not believe the bible is the Total Word of God.

you tell me what you believe about it. WHY.
 
Actually, I dont think that you dont believe in the Bible. What I do think is that you're passive, and almost reluctant to say whats really on your mind. I think you may be worring about offending others. I was just trying to get your honest opinions.

About what I beleive though. Well, I believe the Bible is correct when it says that no liars, killers, homosexuals, etc., will enter into the kingdom of Heaven. That said, there will be a lot of Ex killers, liars, homosexuals, etc., that will enter Heaven. Why? Because, those "ex's" would have found the one that delivers them from all sin - Jesus.

Whats your thoughts?
 
Conscience----

Excuse me for not sticking with your topic. I bring up divorce because this is something that Moses and Jesus spoke of. Jesus never uttered a word that we know of about homosexuality. Paul did. I don't put Paul and Jesus on the same level whatsover. The 2 reasons you cited are not the reasons that the majority of Christians are getting divorces. Most divorces are due to irreconcilable differences. Pastors are remarrying these people in the church. Personally I don't think they are going to hell for it but if you want to speak of it in these terms then I think divorce is a bigger issue. In essence all of these people are commiting adultery(according to the commandments and the Bible).

If you believe in Jesus and what he spoke of than homosexuals indeed have a place in heaven. People keep changing the rules. You have to do a, b and c to go to heaven. So I ask myself, why do people continue to focus on certain scripture while using it to condemn others and neglect other parts that would have them condemned?
 
Excuse me for not sticking with your topic. I bring up divorce because this is something that Moses and Jesus spoke of. Jesus never uttered a word that we know of about homosexuality. Paul did. I don't put Paul and Jesus on the same level whatsover.

Neither do I. Paul was a created being, and Jesus is the Creator! That said, the whole bible is the word of God, and it says in both the Old and New Testments of the Bible, that God condemns homosexuality. Jesus did not come to comdemn the world the 1st time he came, he came to bring salvation to EVER sinner. He said it himself when he taught int he temple, that he came to save us. His 2nd coming is reserved for judgment. The Lord will give the whole world a chance to accept what he has done for them. They can either accept it or reject it. But, when that time is up, he will come back and judge the world in righteouness. All that said, the Lord did speak about divorce, note: Luke 16:18

The 2 reasons you cited are not the reasons that the majority of Christians are getting divorces. Most divorces are due to irreconcilable differences. Pastors are remarrying these people in the church. Personally I don't think they are going to hell for it but if you want to speak of it in these terms then I think divorce is a bigger issue. In essence all of these people are commiting adultery(according to the commandments and the Bible).

Yes, I agree. This is why we most do as the bible says - to find compadible partners, and "dont be of unequal yolk." The people who divorce and remarry for whatever reason they choose is between God and them. I dont judge them, because I cant! For me though, I'll just continue trusting God, and his word. I cant allow what people do dictate what I believe about him. Why? Beceause he has already revealed himself to us in his word, the Bible.

If you believe in Jesus and what he spoke of than homosexuals indeed have a place in heaven. People keep changing the rules. You have to do a, b and c to go to heaven. So I ask myself, why do people continue to focus on certain scripture while using it to condemn others and neglect other parts that would have them condemned?

Actually, the scriptures are clear. WE are ALL already condemned! What saves us is a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus himself. And, as Jesus said, when we have him, we'll be delievered from sin. If we really have Jesus, we wont be slaves to sin. Now, that doesnt mean that we wont slip and mess up, and not sin. Sadly, we will sin because we're still in a body that is infested with sin DNA. But, sin wont be our master as it was before we met the Lord. If you're still in sin, and you say you have Jesus, you must realize that there is a contradiction. If thats the case, we must realize that we dont really have the Lord. This, by the way, is what the Bible says, not me.
 
What do you make of this quote by Jesus?

Luke 12:14-15

But he said to them, "Man, who made me an arbitrator or judge over you?" And he said to them, "Take heed and beware of covetousness, for one's life does not consist in the abundance of things he posseses."
 
First, Jesus asked a question. He said, who made me a judge over you. Then, he answered the question that was initially asked by a man in the crowd. He said that life doesnt consist of the abundence of things. He said this because the man wanted Jesus to persuade his brother to share his estate with him.

What was your point? Certinly Jesus did not say he wasnt the Judge of mankind, right?
 
Conscience said:
Thanks Bandit for your reply. Before I go on, let me just say that I agree with you - God does STILL love the homosexuals, and does offer both deliverence and forgiveness of sin through Jesus. That said, why do some Christians still say they can be gay and go to Heaven? Do you get my question?
I am a pastor, and we did a survey at the local university before we started a student service. One student replied that he would never go to church, because we would never accept him as he is, since he is gay.

I started thinking, which would be better? For us to hold our ground, insist on him changing, and continue to deny him grace until he does, OR

to let him be a full participant, hoping that in the process he will deal with his anger, his pride, his lust, his deceitfulness, (things we all have!) and when he dies he has made progess on these issues, but is still gay.

I would rather see him participate. As a pastor, i have to deal with all sorts of sins from my members. Some of them refuse to admit that their pride is a sin. Some of them refuse to admit that their anger and self-righteousness is a sin. Some of the refuse to admit that their contentiousness is a sin. They all have some issues. Some are gay. Many look at pornography.

In my humble opinion, if the church really wanted to deal responsibily with sexuality, we would start dealing the fact that most men in the church (and many pastors) are addicted to internet porn. I see that as a far greater danger to the church than homosexuality.

To get back to your question, do i ignore homosexuality? No. Do i believe it disqualifies someone for the kingdom of heaven, when i am willing to overlook other sins? No. There will be all manner of repentent and struggling sinners in heaven. Some will be gay. Some will be hypocrites. some will be war mongerers. I will be one of those struggling, repentent sinners.

Does this help at all?
 
Thanks for your honest replies, I appriciate it. That said. I am not a pastor, and I've been a Chrisitan for only 2 years. But, I do know that we cannot determine successful preaching/witnessing by the number of people that is in our church service. This sort of pragmatic teachings opens the doors for producing false converts who believe they are actually saved when they're not. Look at the Bible for instance. The people that preached in the bible were not popular with MOST people. In fact, Jeremiah for example, admited that he felt apprehensive because most people didnt except the message that he preached. Likewise, both Jesus and Pual were not liked by most. Why? Because they preached a Biblical message of judgement to come. They didnt preach the "gentle Jesus that loves the world" message. They spoke about the wrath of God, and the consequence of sin. Yes, they did it in love, but nevertheless they still preached the truth. For that, they were hated. But, for that, they were also blessed, and favored by God, because they didnt water down truth. As the body of Christ, we are to witness to the world as Jesus did. In love, bring to sinner the awareness of their sins, and show them their need for a Savior. Then after that, all we can do is pray and leave the work up to God. He will bring in the harvest. He'll deliever people from the sin that binds them, and blinds them from truth.

Now, all that said, there is no sin hierchy. Looking at porn is just as bad as homosexuality in God's eyes. Again, the Bible is Clear, the wages of sin is death, and eternal seperation from God. But, God doesnt want that, does he? No, he certainly doesnt! He sent his Son to pay the price for all our sins. And, when we believe, we will pass from being under the Law of sin, and be placed under grace. In time, God will mold us to become more like his Son, the Second Adam - Jesus. And, also in time, we will be dilievered from the sins that hold us captive. Whats my point in all of this? Well, my point is, we become slaves to whoever we follow. If we follow after sinful things, we become slaves to sin and Satan. But, if we follow after Jesus, we become slaves to him.

There is deliverence. But, we just have to want it.
 
Conscience said:
Actually, the scriptures are clear. WE are ALL already condemned! What saves us is a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus himself. And, as Jesus said, when we have him, we'll be delievered from sin. If we really have Jesus, we wont be slaves to sin. Now, that doesnt mean that we wont slip and mess up, and not sin. Sadly, we will sin because we're still in a body that is infested with sin DNA. But, sin wont be our master as it was before we met the Lord. If you're still in sin, and you say you have Jesus, you must realize that there is a contradiction. If thats the case, we must realize that we dont really have the Lord. This, by the way, is what the Bible says, not me.

sin DNA, hmmm, where have I heard that one before, oh yes it was here, posted by Knowledge:

http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2525&page=2&pp=15&highlight=sin+DNA

The unsaved are those that are not born agian. We're all born sinners because of the sin DNA in us. This is why we MUST be born agian! About how we will no. Well, I answered that above. You will know the Children of God by their fruits! Please recornize that while they're are many sincere people in the world that do good things. The fact is, unless they repent and put their trust in Jesus (Born again), they remain unsaved, and thus end up being sincerly wrong!

lunamoth
 
Conscience said:
CUT....

I do know that we cannot determine successful preaching/witnessing by the number of people that is in our church service. This sort of pragmatic teachings opens the doors for producing false converts who believe they are actually saved when they're not.

cut....


There is deliverence. But, we just have to want it.

Let me ask you this. What does it mean to be saved? To allow the blood of Jesus to cover our sins, or to try to be sinless? (I am not talking about sanctification here, i am talking about justification.) What does it take to get to heaven? A perfect life? or the blood of Jesus?

Are you really saying that "false converts" are that easy to spot? My guess is that i could spend a good hour with you, and uncover a few sins that you are not aware of...(not just you, I could do that with most people--all people!)

Do those sins disqualify you for heaven? And what if YOU dont think they are sins? (Suppose you work in a bank for instance, where lending at interest is practiced. Suppose you support the war in Iraq, and you are so sure you are right?) If you are wrong on these things, are you then disqualified for the Kingdom?

What if you think something is a sin, but it really is not? (In the south people used to believe that "race-mixing" was sin. They would have excluded a lot of godly people from the kingdom. and they believed they had biblical reasons for believing this.)

What you dont know will bite you in the butt, but grace covers a multitude of sins.
 
Let me ask you this. What does it mean to be saved? To allow the blood of Jesus to cover our sins, or to try to be sinless? (I am not talking about sanctification here, i am talking about justification.) What does it take to get to heaven? A perfect life? or the blood of Jesus?

To be saved means to be forgiven of yoru sins. According to the Bible, a person is saved when they repent of their sins, and put their trust in Jesus. Being saved does not mean that you're suddenly good - NO ONE IS GOOD, BUT GOD! Being saved just means that you're forgiven of your sins because Jesus already paid the price. About what it takes to get to heaven. Well, Jesus himself said that he is the way. Since all of us are guilty of breaking God's law, we're already condemned. But, because God doesnt want us to die in sin, he offered a way out. He sent Jesus to pay for your price.

Are you really saying that "false converts" are that easy to spot? My guess is that i could spend a good hour with you, and uncover a few sins that you are not aware of...(not just you, I could do that with most people--all people!)

Yes, false converts are easy to spot. Perhaps another time I'll show some quilities of a false convert. About me though. Yes, I sin, unfortunitly. There are many times where I feel like Apostle Paul when he said, "The things I shouldnt do, I end up doing, and the things that I want to do, I dont do." Like Paul, and I imagine, anyone that loves God, I HATE the fact that I sin, and will sin. But, thank God for Jesus. His death on the cross, and he being in me, cleases me from my sins. It is through faith that I am justifed, and made righteous before God. It surely isnt because any of the good that I do. All that said, PLEASE dont think Im some "holier than thou dude." Im NOT! But again, I am forgiven.

Do those sins disqualify you for heaven? And what if YOU dont think they are sins? (Suppose you work in a bank for instance, where lending at interest is practiced. Suppose you support the war in Iraq, and you are so sure you are right?) If you are wrong on these things, are you then disqualified for the Kingdom?

According to the Bible, sin is transgrettion of God's Law. Thats how we know what sin is - the Law (10 Commandments) tell us. That said, I'd like to say again that according to the Bible, we're all already guilty because we've all sined and come short to the glory of God. God offers a way out - a free gift for us to get to know him, and to come into his presence forever in eternity. He has sent his Son Jesus, to pay the price of our sins. If we choose to believe, Jesus will come into our lives and prove himself. You will become a new person in Christ. The Bible calls this experience being "Born again."

What if you think something is a sin, but it really is not? (In the south people used to believe that "race-mixing" was sin. They would have excluded a lot of godly people from the kingdom. and they believed they had biblical reasons for believing this.)

Thank God Im not from the south man - I like white chicks! As a matter of fact, I LOVE chicks period! OK, that out the way, I say again - We know sin because God's Law tells us. We dont just make this up as we go along. You know?

What you dont know will bite you in the butt, but grace covers a multitude of sins.

Is that biblical?
 
Why do Christians today say that killing is acceptable, and ignore Jesus' teaching to love one's enemies and pray for our persecutors?

Why do Christians today accept divorce for reasons other than unfaithfulness?

Why do Christians today accept poverty and do not try to change the economic system toward equality, when we were called to help the poor and strangers, both in the OT and in the NT?

Why do Christians today pray conspicuously, when Jesus taught us to pray in private with God?

Why do Christians today broadcast their good works and alms-giving to the world, with websites and much fanfare, when Jesus taught us to give privately?

Why do Christians preach that various peoples are going to hell, when Jesus clearly taught that we are not to judge others- that job belongs only to God?

The answer is the same for all these questions... because Christians are not putting Jesus' teachings into action in their own lives.

The question should not be "Why do some Christians fail to condemn homosexuality?"

The question should be "Why do so many Christians fail to apply Jesus' teachings to their lives?" And then a prompt focus on oneself, one's own relationship with God, and a careful analysis of all one's actions and beliefs. God is at work in all people's lives and God is omniscient and omnipresent, without beginning or end, infinitely wise, just, and loving. God does not need our recommendations about who we think are condemned. What God asks of us is that we each focus on our lives and being followers of Jesus, living in such a way that our very lives are our testimony.
 
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