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precept

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Where do the popes go when they die?

John Paul died recently and according to his current successor, who was his previous trusted aide..."John Paul is in heaven looking down, and blessing the faithful form his papal window in heaven". If this is true; are all the other 263 popes at their own individual papal windows; or do they take turns at the one assigned heavenly papal window!

Just let us assume that all the popes are in heaven. Do they all bless the faithful on earth alongside God; or do they bless the faithful on earth despite God!

And John Paul for instance; does he look down on the faithful as they file by his dead corpse lying in the crypt below St.Peter's?

And when the faithful pray to one or other of their saints, presumably in heaven; does the particular saint represent the petiton of the faithful to one or other of the 264 popes in heaven; or does the particular saint represent the petitioner's request to Mary; and Mary to Jesus; or does the saint to which the request is presented, go directly to Jesus on behalf of the petitioner?

And what about all the faithful who died, and themselves are in heaven; do they also look down on their own dead corpses? And in heaven; to whom do they direct their devotion; do they direct their devotion to the siants, to the popes, to Mary, or to Jesus?

Though some may think the questions trivial; please do not make the mistake to so think. The official teaching of the Roman Catholic church makes praying to those they proclaim saints a doctrine they encourage that the faithful follow. Praying to Mary is also official doctrine of the Roman Catholic church. Since one cannot pray to a DEAD CORPSE then those supposedly in heaven must be alive...and if they are alive and can hear the prayers of the faithful then they must also be able to "see" seeing they can "hear". This makes them also able to see their own dead corpses on earth as they walk around in heaven.

The question must still be asked, however; what about the popes who supervised the Inquisition and the Crusades and the killing of hundreds of thousands of Christians whom they proclaimed "heretics". One must suppose those Christians are either in heaven with the popes are they are in hell.
But how could those Christians be in the same place with those who killed them? So either the Christians are in heaven and the popes in hell; or the popes are in heaven and the Chrisitans are in hell...but they both cannot be in the same place; be that place heaven or hell.

Where then do you think the martyrd Christians are? Are they in heaven, hell or the cold grave in which they were laid when they gave up their lives for the cause of their Saviour? Which also begs the question...Where then are the popes?

precept
 
Who are these martyred Christians you are talking about? Roman Catholics?

I suspect not - and let's face it, I doubt the Cathars et al would be pleased to share the same window. :)
 
I said:
Who are these martyred Christians you are talking about? Roman Catholics?

I suspect not - and let's face it, I doubt the Cathars et al would be pleased to share the same window. :)

Being martyred for the cause of Christ is not the same as being martyred for one's religious beliefs. Or else every martyr for his/her religion would quakify for his/her own special place in heaven.

1 Corinthians 13:3 "And though I give my body to be burnt and have not love; it profiteth me nothing." This verse of scripture makes the point that never does the one who kills another exhibit love....no one who loves another would kill another for any cause. Peter did not love the Priests nor the Temple guards who came to arrest his Master and he decided to defend his Master by trying to cut off the head of the Temple guard...He missed and cut off the temple guard's ear instead. Jesus who is all love, rebuked Peter for not exhibiting love and replaced the Temple guard's ear completely and instantly healed.
In other words; there was no circumstance that would have caused Jesus as human, to kill another human. Hence when any human kills another human, but without his own life being threatened or that of another, such a human who does the killing or who so authorizes the killing of another human is guilty of murder. And even then, the human that dies at the hand of another must not also himself die for the cause of Christ, unless he dies for the entire cause of Christ. The entire cause of Christ is summed up in the word Love.

Love, OR the entire cause of Christ "does not think evil of another human". Which also means that one who does not think evil of another would not sin against the other huiman of whom he thinks no evil.

Love, OR the entire cause of Christ is unselfish..."seeketh not her own". An unselfish human shares with any and all humans in need of his help.

Love, OR one who believes in the entire cause of Christ is not proud..."is not puffed up". Only when a human seeks to present his/herself as better than another human is pride exhibited. In other words a human without pride is in love with the cause of Christ, who never exhibited pride against any human.

Love, OR one who believes in the entire cause of Christ endures suffering..."sffers long; and is kind to his tormentors"... This spirit was exhibited by Jesus when He was crucified and the true Christian martyrs also exhibited this spirit of kindness when they were killed by those who are without love.

Love, OR one who believes in the cause of Christ does not covet or envy his neighbor for anything his neighbor possesses. In other words one who believes in the cause of Christ honors and keeps the command of Christ that commands against coveting his neighbor's wife, household possessions, or anything his neighbor possesses.

Love, OR one who believes in the cause of Christ does not "behave unseemly"...he behaves as Christ would behave. He behaves as Christ behaved when the Priests and Jewish leaders came to arrest and kill him... He willingly submitted without any fight.

Love, OR one who believes in the entire cause of Christ does not rejoice at the demise of another of his fellow human...but he rejoices when Truth, any truth, is revealed to him.

OR, IN OTHER WORDS, Love, "worketh no ill to his neighbor" Romans 13:10.

Consequently those who kill in the name of God; are not in the employ of God; but rather they are in the employ of the enemy of God, satan. who never exhibits love, except for selfish reasons, which by biblical definition is NOT LOVE!
Those who choose die in the name of God, must be sure that they embrace the entire truth of God; and that they would so embrace the entire truth of God if and when such truth is revealed to them...it is in this way that the true child of God "rejoices in the truth"; and dying for the truth becomes his true wish...a wish as true as that of His master who also died for the B]TRUTH.[/B]

Only thjose who so love the truth that they would also so die for the truth, will have any expectation of living in heaven with the Author of All Truth.

Those who kill others for what they expect is truth; even if they use Jesus as justification for their hateful behaviour, are using Jesus' name while engaging in the work of the devil and satan.



precept
 
precept said:
Being martyred for the cause of Christ is not the same as being martyred for one's religious beliefs. Or else every martyr for his/her religion would quakify for his/her own special place in heaven...
I'm interested to see where Catholocism and the Pope (s) come into play in the point your are devoping...;)

v/r

Q
 
Martyrd's , the pope , blacks , whites, men , women and children we are all the same. We all shall one day died, this is the results on sin. Be be not afraid, for the bible tells us,
"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." 1 Corinthians 15:52, 53. Jesus said, "Marvel not at this, for the hour is coming in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." John 5:28, 29

For God wishes that no man be lost, but in the end he and only will judge each and everyone of us, the pope included. "For the living know that they shall die, but the dead know nothing.
 
Quahom1 said:
I'm interested to see where Catholocism and the Pope (s) come into play in the point your are devoping...;)

v/r

Q


My response to "I Brian's" post tried to put in perspective the qualifications of Christians, Roman Catholics; and any and all Christians who will be going to heaven. If the popes who authorized the Inquisition, the Crusades, the Torture and the merciless killings of hundreds of thousands of "heretics"...and If the Prostestant Princes and Kings and Queens who also authorized the killings of thousands of Roman Catholics are in the same place; then that place can't be heaven.

It is impossible for the above mentioned groups to be in the same place as those they martyred.

So either the above mentioned groups are on their way to hell and the martyrs on their way to heaven; Or the above mentioned groups are on their way to heaven; and the martyrs on their way to hell.

This reasoning puts the popes either on their way to hell or on their way to heaven; seeing they are all together sitting on the same "Chair"

precept
 
precept said:
My response to "I Brian's" post tried to put in perspective the qualifications of Christians, Roman Catholics; and any and all Christians who will be going to heaven. If the popes who authorized the Inquisition, the Crusades, the Torture and the merciless killings of hundreds of thousands of "heretics"...and If the Prostestant Princes and Kings and Queens who also authorized the killings of thousands of Roman Catholics are in the same place; then that place can't be heaven.

It is impossible for the above mentioned groups to be in the same place as those they martyred.

So either the above mentioned groups are on their way to hell and the martyrs on their way to heaven; Or the above mentioned groups are on their way to heaven; and the martyrs on their way to hell.

This reasoning puts the popes either on their way to hell or on their way to heaven; seeing they are all together sitting on the same "Chair"

precept
Ah. Which pope? hmmm? which priest, which king/queen/president? In otherwords, which individuals are you referring to? Earthly Titles and positions of power on Earth hold no merit in Heaven (perhaps save the level of accountability for the individual, before God at judgement).

Saints? Which saints? The ones cannonized by the church, or the thousands upons thousand of those who's everyday lives were saintly, yet we do not know their names?

If the story of Mary is true...then a saint she is indeed. She faced being stoned to death before her child would have even been born, not to mention the humiliation of she and her family for her "wayward ways". Quite a strong constitution for a girl of about 14...to risk that by accepting the "gift" she was given.

Yes I read what you intitially posted...;)

If you really want to know about Catholic beliefs, ask me privately. I'll set you up with all the information you desire.

v/r

Q
 
Quahom1 said:
Ah. Which pope? hmmm? which priest, which king/queen/president? In otherwords, which individuals are you referring to? Earthly Titles and positions of power on Earth hold no merit in Heaven (perhaps save the level of accountability for the individual, before God at judgementQ

Tell that to any of the 265 popes! He'll tell youy that God handpicked him as his representative on earth....The archbishop and priest will say as well that he also is handpicked by God to lead his flock.

The kings and Princes who over the years were made leaders of their respective Protestant churches will also say that they are being led by God to lead God's flock...As such whatever they deem necessary to "LEAD HIS FLOCK' is sanctioned by God in heaven. Even if that means killing other human Christians in the name of God.

As to whether one chooses to believe the doctrines of any particular religion;such is one's perogative; but unless one's religious Christian belief is in line with the Divine Author of religion, God, Himself...such belief is futile in the fullest sense of the Word of God. And the last time I read the scriptures, murder of any human was still a sin against God. Also the last time I checked the official teaching of the Roman Catholic church and the Protestant churches that condoned and supervised the killing of humans based solely on the belief they held; that these churches have never officially repudiated and condemned the ungodly brutish practices of the past as a sin against God Himself. Till this is done these churches stand as still condoning murder as an official arm of their Christian belief.


precept
 
Kind Regards, precept!

I can't help but wonder the motivation behind your posts. Is it to devalue Catholicism, or Christianity in general? Or maybe religion in general? After all, every major faith I can think of has had its military moments.

If one takes a view of finding fault, then fault is to be found everywhere, including in the mirror. If you or your family or country were being attacked by any specific group, you would rightly defend yourself. Until that moment, why convict a person of something (s)he has not done? Are you holding the children of today guilty for the sins of their parents? Is it not better to forgive, that you may be forgiven? I find I sleep better at night not holding on so tightly to past wrongs, especially if they are far distant and not of direct consequence to me or those in my charge. The Crusades, the Inquisition, the horrible crimes of conscience, are in the distant past. None of your family living likely ever saw it personally. And if and when they did see anything like it, they did something about it. And then they got over it, and they moved on...
 
juantoo3 said:
Kind Regards, precept!

I can't help but wonder the motivation behind your posts. Is it to devalue Catholicism, or Christianity in general? Or maybe religion in general? After all, every major faith I can think of has had its military moments.

If one takes a view of finding fault, then fault is to be found everywhere, including in the mirror. If you or your family or country were being attacked by any specific group, you would rightly defend yourself. Until that moment, why convict a person of something (s)he has not done? Are you holding the children of today guilty for the sins of their parents? Is it not better to forgive, that you may be forgiven? I find I sleep better at night not holding on so tightly to past wrongs, especially if they are far distant and not of direct consequence to me or those in my charge. The Crusades, the Inquisition, the horrible crimes of conscience, are in the distant past. None of your family living likely ever saw it personally. And if and when they did see anything like it, they did something about it. And then they got over it, and they moved on...


"Juantoo" if the matter of salvation was left up to us human; then only those according to our "subjective individual religious understanding of scripture" would have a chance to be saved.

Salvation; according to scripture is entirely defined by God and only by God can salvation be defined.This means that any other defintion other than as defined by God, is sinful.

The Christian church which was began by Jesus Himself and introduced to humanity tnrough His handpicked disciples cannot introduce a different gospel than that introduced by Christ and His disciples....And this the different false representative churches have done by [/B]punishing those who disagree with their false representatioin of the True.[/B] Such then is not as you put it a matter for forgiveness. There is no merit in forgiving a sin that was introduced by false represntatives of the True. The True representatives of Christ, including Christ Himself, and complete with the entire scriptures of God's commandments to humanity, is complete! Replete with how humanity MUST SERVE GOD! And any deviation from these explicit instructions by any group, catholic or protestant, must be presented for what it is, the work of God's archenemy, the devil.
Those who represent God's salvation, cannot but represent His salvation the way He chooses to represent same.

And it is more than evident why the false representatives thought they were representing God's desires in the atrocities of the past...And the reason is: they were "false" and hence had no understanding of the true gospel of salvation...and thinking they were doing God's bidding, they made God's Gospel of salvation their own imaginings...So still to this day they believe they are serving the True God and preaching His gospel. It is for this reason that, but for the benefit of hindsight and history they would have still thought they were in the employ of God's salvific plan as they committed atrocities in His name. And that is why to this day the following statement is still true...."Also the last time I checked the official teaching of the Roman Catholic church and the Protestant churches that condoned and supervised the killing of humans based solely on the belief these humans held; that these churches have never officially repudiated and condemned the ungodly brutish practices of the past as a sin against God Himself. Till this is done these churches stand as still condoning murder as an official arm of their Christian belief....."


The reason why these churches are unable to outrightly condemn these atrocities as NEVER EVER BEING A PLAN THAT WAS CONDONED BY GOD! is that they would also by so doing proclaim themselves false and irrelevant representatives of God's true church.
God's true church that existed from the time of Adam through Abraham, never at any time misunderstood God's salvific plan. So important is God's salvific plan that even Abraham is quoted as one who "believed His plan" and those of us who also "beleive His plan" are like "faithful Abraham". If the false representatives of the true[/B] had "beleived His plan" they, like "faithful Abraham" who pre-eisted them by more than four thousands of years, would have fully understood God's salvific plan as Abraham did. 1 Peter 1:20, makes it quite clear that God's salvific plan pre-existed even the creation of humanity and the world.... This makes it impossible for His plan to include human additions, deletions, interpretations, or anything human. It is for this reason that no amount of recrimination on the part of those who already are in violation of His plan through ignorance of same, has any relevance or redeeming value. Hence apologizing for actions that were not of, or in any way connected to our God's salvation plan is a consummate waste of time.

Those guilty of the commission of these crimes against God and their fellow humans, together with those who believe in their false representation of God's gospel[their followers aka the churches of their making] have an eternal responsibility to confess their sins to God[not apologize!] ...ask Hisforgiveness;[not forgivness from fellow sinners] repent of their false understanding of God's Gospel of salvation; turn from following these false practices; and follow the True Gospel as plainly outlined by God in His Holy scriptures.

The True gospel of God will be revealed to all true seekers of same....for so God has promised...."And ye shall seek me and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart".Jeremiah 29:13.

Huimanty must not take for granted the work of the arch-deceiver. Just think! Satan was clever enough to deceive one third of God's very angels. That number must be in the multi-millions as angels are accustomed to be numbered. Satan also was able to deceive perfect humanity, unexposed to sin in any form-Adam and Eve and Cain.Here again, Satan was successful in his deceptive art. Satan was again successful in corrupting the very people God successfully removed from Eygptian bondage-the Israelites...these people He called "His own"...and while cradling them and sheltering them under His Everlasting Wing, they rose in worship to "a calf of gold" proclaiming the image of the calf as "it", their god that had brought them out of the land of bondage.

Satan's decption of these, God's people was so complete that God condemned them all-the Israelites, to wandering aroud in a desert for forty years till every last one of them that had originally left Eygpt had died in the wilderness. In other words, because they believed and followed Satan instead of God, God denied them entry into the Land of Promise.

The descendants of those[the Israelites] denied entry into the "land of promise fared no better than their predecessors---they killed the very God who brought their predecessors out of Eygpt; and did not recognize Him as their God;just as their predecessors before them did not recognize Him as their God at the mout of Sinai when He gave them His ten commandments.

It is not surprising that Satan would be trying his endeavour best to corrupt God's plan of saving humanity by using his, satan's mission of sin Satan even tried to deceive very God, when he tempted Jesus, Very God to worship him, Satan.
The question then is pure and simple.... IF SATAN HAS WORKED SO HARD TO THWART GOD'S PLAN OF SALVATION FROM ITS IINCEPTION; WOULDN'T HE BE WORKING DOUBLY HARD TO DECEIVE THOSE WHO WOULD CHOOSE TO BELIEVE IN GOD'S PLAN OF SALVATION?

The above question is brought to full light by God Himself as He warns humanity to be on guard to the "wiles of the devil!"


"......Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, BECAUSE HE KNOWETH THAT HE HATH BUT A SHORT TIME." Revelation 12:12.

"....Finally, my brethren[Christians]...Put on the whole armour of God that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil" Ephesians 6:10

"...And Jesus answered...Take heed that no man deceive you....for many shall come in my Name "saying I am Christ; and shall deceive many"..Matthew 24:4-5.
"...and many false prophets shall arise and DECEIVE MANY" Matthew 24:11


The above passages are but just a FEW OF THE WARNINGS GIVEN TO TRUE CHRISTIANS, who must be on the look-out for the Counterfeit gospel of satan!

THE STAKES ARE HIGH FOR SATAN! Hellfire was prepared just for him and the angels he deceived in heaven. But satan is on a missino to carry as many of us humans with him who so choose him and his guile. These, his followers include those who willing disregard God and His commandments together with those who like one third of the angels in heaven leave themselves willing to be deceived.

'Then shall he[Christ] say also to them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" Matt.25:41

Matthew 25:31-46....Makes quite clear that "hellfire" was prepared for the "devil and his angels"; but also will include all who willingly follow the devil or allow themselves to be deceived into following satan in the belief that they are following the teachings of Jesus.
Jesus again makes this fact quite clear when He described the Christians on His left hand in Matthew 7:21-23, as those "christians"on their way to hell!


precept
 
Quahom1 said:
What on earth does that have to do with Catholocism?

v/r
Q

Read carefully...You will find your answer between the lines!

"Matthew 25:31-46....Makes quite clear that "hellfire" was prepared for the "devil and his angels"; but also will include all who willingly follow the devil or allow themselves to be deceived into following satan in the belief that they are following the teachings of Jesus.['B]
Jesus again makes this fact quite clear when He described the Christians on His left hand in Matthew 7:21-23, as those "christian churches" on their way to hell!"


precept
 
precept said:
Read carefully...You will find your answer between the lines!

"Matthew 25:31-46....Makes quite clear that "hellfire" was prepared for the "devil and his angels"; but also will include all who willingly follow the devil or allow themselves to be deceived into following satan in the belief that they are following the teachings of Jesus.['B]
Jesus again makes this fact quite clear when He described the Christians on His left hand in Matthew 7:21-23, as those "christian churches" on their way to hell!"


precept

Why don't you tell me anyway.
 
Quahom1 said:
Why don't you tell me anyway.

Pseudo Christian churches:
"Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name? an in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name have done many wonderful works? Matthew 7:22

Jesus to the christians of the Pseudo Christian churches:

"I never knew you: depart from me ye that work iniquity."
Matthew 7:23


precept
 
precept said:
Pseudo Christian churches:
"Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name? an in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name have done many wonderful works? Matthew 7:22

Jesus to the christians of the Pseudo Christian churches:

"I never knew you: depart from me ye that work iniquity."
Matthew 7:23


precept
Precept:

Who chose to put that scripture in the Bible?
 
Abogado del Diablo said:
Precept:

Who chose to put that scripture in the Bible?


Answer:
The Author of the salvation each Christian convert seeks....maps out for the Christian convert the pre-requisites for said salvation.


precept
 
precept said:
Answer:
The Author of the salvation each Christian convert seeks....maps out for the Christian convert the pre-requisites for said salvation.


precept
There's a difference between being cleverly cryptic and obfuscating. ;)
 
precept said:
Pseudo Christian churches:
"Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name? an in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name have done many wonderful works? Matthew 7:22

Jesus to the christians of the Pseudo Christian churches:

"I never knew you: depart from me ye that work iniquity."
Matthew 7:23


precept
Oh, Whew, good. For a second there I thought you were being contemptuous of Catholics...;)

v/r

Q
 
Abogado del Diablo said:
There's a difference between being cleverly cryptic and obfuscating. ;)

Jesus:
"I thank thee O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes." Matthew 11:25


Paul:
"But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will" 2 Timothy 2:23-26



precept
 
precept said:
Jesus:
"I thank thee O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes." Matthew 11:25


Paul:
"But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will" 2 Timothy 2:23-26



precept
So as far as a response to my question goes, shall I mark you down for "I don't know"?
 
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