Humility and Humiliation

Paladin

Paladin

Purchased Bewilderment
Messages
2,084
Reaction score
4
Points
38
Location
Washington
We must be confident in our capacity to understand, while leaving ourselves open to changing our mind. Opening ourselves to new experiences and having the strength to abandon thoughts and perspectives we have outgrown. What does it take to come to this place? To an understanding of the depth and simplicity inherent in our own nature? Is it an understanding of the nature of self? Perhaps then, Self cannot be static, but flows on, telescoping into time. Do we learn that to cling to an idea that isn't working causes pain and suffering?
That there is peace in "becoming as a little child"? A Child that is knows it is cherished, loved, and safe; a child, wholly delighted to explore a summer meadow lost in wonder at the movement of shadows on the grass, and marvels at the reality of flowers.

When we discover our capacity to learn, and that what we learn, may well supercede what we knew before, how great is our gladness?
Therefore, true humility cannot be without profound gratitude.
Humility can never mean humilitation. It is the quiet moment in our heart, that rather than pushing us into the dirt, raises us up to those lofty heights peopled by the great mystics, and poets.
Therefore we understand the truth that: "...the first shall be last and the last shall be first..."

Trancendence is irony, in that, those who push to the forefront, often lose out, while those who stand back receive "the keys to the kingdom"
 
One of the problems with faith is that, like any belief, it is opinion based on sentiment, not on logic.

In any discussion of 'comparative faith' one will find folk long on faith, and short on comparison. The nature of the beast. Faith is a complex thing ,tied closely to one's identity.

To challenge faith IS to challenge identity.

An opinon can be changed; faith, like an addiction, can't be changed, or challenged, without an emotive back lash. Hence the humiliation of those who do dare challenge. Its why, looking at Christian, Moslem, even Buddhist, history, so much blood has been spilt when dealing with non-believers.
Jesus got nailed to a cross for his stance, at least based upon the gospels telling. Too many times one sees the sincere nailed to the same tree by those who claim to follow the Lamb of God, who parade their ignorance of the history of their own 'truth' like a badge of honour, rather than the mark of Cain.
 
Gwynplaine said:
One of the problems with faith is that, like any belief, it is opinion based on sentiment, not on logic.
Click to expand...
Faith is not opinion. It's more of a conviction, felt deeply. I don't think that it's based on sentiment as much as it is on experience. Even if we do say that faith comes from sentiment, we must also recognize that faith produces sentiment, or more specifically, true faith will produce positive feelings in the faithful individual.

Gwynplaine said:
Faith is a complex thing ,tied closely to one's identity.
Click to expand...
Perhaps sometimes this is true. I would argue, though, that there is a type of faith that comes from loss of one's personal identity, or more correctly, absorption of one's small self into the larger Self, which Paladin touched on.

Gwynplaine said:
To challenge faith IS to challenge identity.
Click to expand...
On the contrary, I would argue that to embrace faith is to challenge and let go of one's separate identity.

As an aside, logic is limited, but immediate experience of the sacred, which is the basis of faith, is limitless.

As far as the role of humility and humiliation in this process, I would disagree somewhat with Paladin. From personal experience, I tend to believe profound humiliation can be a catalyst to humility and faith. True, humiliation is not humility, but I do believe it can precede it. Humility is not an attiude of shame, like humiliation, but comes when one can put aside petty challenges and personal convictions in face of a greater good, whether percieved as a Higher Power or some greater, more pure Reality.
 
Hi Pathless,


I would agree that there is value in the nadir experience. Being able to define the difference between humility and humiliation charts a specific spiritual course. I remember in many twelve step meetings people would beat themselves up believing that they were achieving a humble stance and therefore at one with their higher power. While some of this was just posturing, I believe that there is a mistaken idea about this.

While contrition leads one to a deeper realization and perhaps vice versa, there is a particular beauty in entering the silence, forgeting the suplications, the prayers and meditations, the mantra's and texts, and coming with open heart and empty hands before your God.

Asking nothing, desiring only to bask in the eternal presence, the Divine source of all there is, is enough. This, in my own personal lexicon is humility,that we are wholly loved and wholly loveable at the core of what we are stripped of all pretense, and revealed to be, at last, children of That-Which-Is.

Peace
Mark
 
Pathless,
In an ideal world, I would agree that most of what has been said is true. However, we don't live there. Looking at the vituperation people WILL and DO hand out while proclaiming their own holiness, and the inherent superiority of their path, based on what is possibly a mild criticism or disagreement with the base tenets of what ever faith they choose to claim to follow indicates a deep psychological affront, based on a percived attack on a foundation of their identity.

If you look at Christian, Islamic, Buddhist or Hindu 'fully realised' (to use the correct term) individuals, you disagree, and they seriously concsider what you've said, rather than do a modern equivilent of 'burn the heretic' or 'hound them out'. They may tell you why they think you're not correct, as you told me, but at no time do they shout. They may even agree, and contemplate how they can incorporate the concept.

To them, God's Universe is infinite in its wonder and in its possiblities. To circumscribe it with a single collection of books, other than as guide lines, is to try and reduce the whole to a clock work inanety, wherein EVERYTHING is codified. I feel that those that do, miss the point and faith does become a core factor of their identity and is just opinion backed by a sentiment that can not be challenged in any way, shape, or form, and one expect a resoned debate on the subject.
 
Last edited:
Hi Gwynplaine,


Your viewpoint is quite valid, though I sense this condition you speak of, i.e. people who become quite upset at opposing viewpoints, and those who are somewhat legalistic in their religion is very upsetting to you.
I empathize with you there but I have begun to understand that people seem almost "Hardwired" as it were to act as they do. Yes, I get feeling angry sometimes, and somewhat exasperated as I wonder why they just don't get it.
M. Scott Peck describes different levels of faith that people travel through at one time or another, some even seem stuck at certain levels they are basically:

1. People live for themselves, do what they please to please themselves. Characterized by hedonism
2. Legalism or fundamentalism in religion, people need to hold on to a rigid set of rules, fear seems to be the motivation here
3. Agnostic or atheism. These are the scientists, philosophers(to some extent) secular humanism. Here people turn away from religion as mythological and hurtful, they may seem angry about the religious nuts who bring harm with their philosophy of fear.
4. Mysticism. People here in this level see the oneness of all creation and seek a deeper relationship with the ultimate reality, they tend to be self actualized and seek harmony rather than divisiveness.

After learning of these levels, I began to understand a little better about why people do what they do. Also the realization hit me that by being angry I was allowing those people to control me and interrupt my own growth and peacefulness. So to give my power to others is simply not helpful, better to use that moment for practice of right understanding, and right seeing.

Peace,

Mark
 
Ah, the old enemy anger. No, I'm not angered by it, simply saddened. For a parallel break down to the steps of evolution, I would refer you to the works of David R. Hawkins M.D., Ph. D., who arrived at very similar conclusions by independent means. Understanding why people do what they do, doesn't actually make it any less saddening. There have been some prime examples on the CR fora where there has been a lot less tollerance shown for others veiw points by the legalist/fundamentalist chapters than perhaps is allowed for inthe guide lines. Spreading pain and self-loathing is only a feature of a religion that is designed specifically for crowd control. Hence an unhealthy anti-gnostic/anti-intellectual bias of some view points.
 
Paladin said:
...When we discover our capacity to learn, and that what we learn, may well supercede what we knew before, how great is our gladness?
Therefore, true humility cannot be without profound gratitude.
Humility can never mean humilitation. It is the quiet moment in our heart, that rather than pushing us into the dirt, raises us up to those lofty heights peopled by the great mystics, and poets.
Therefore we understand the truth that: "...the first shall be last and the last shall be first..."

Trancendence is irony, in that, those who push to the forefront, often lose out, while those who stand back receive "the keys to the kingdom"
Click to expand...
Humility is internally driven, and is an expression of the ultimate truth of self. We KNOW who and what we are. We accept the weaknesses and strengths within ourself that that discovery of knowing brings out. We realize we can't do it alone, or we can't do it very well, alone. So we "gratefully" ask for guidance from the Source greater than ourselves. Sometimes we ask the "Source" to do for us what we can't (which is a relief to us).

Humiliation is externally driven. It is a burden that others attempt to force upon us, for their own gain. Notice, I said "attempt to force upon us". That is because we do not have to accept humiliation into ourselves.

There is a great difference between others attempting to humiliate us, and us being (or feeling) humiliated, and feeling shame for our own or someone else's behavior. Three horses of different colors...

Does this make sense?

v/r

Q
 
Gwynplaine said:
Ah, the old enemy anger. No, I'm not angered by it, simply saddened. For a parallel break down to the steps of evolution, I would refer you to the works of David R. Hawkins M.D., Ph. D., who arrived at very similar conclusions by independent means. Understanding why people do what they do, doesn't actually make it any less saddening. There have been some prime examples on the CR fora where there has been a lot less tollerance shown for others veiw points by the legalist/fundamentalist chapters than perhaps is allowed for inthe guide lines. Spreading pain and self-loathing is only a feature of a religion that is designed specifically for crowd control. Hence an unhealthy anti-gnostic/anti-intellectual bias of some view points.
Click to expand...
Thanks Gwyn, my wife is more familiar with Dr. Hawkins than I am, perhaps you could recommend a title? Also I would be interested in hearing how you deal with the intrusive tactics of legalism. What strategy or conflict management style is best to handle difficult people?

Peace

Mark
 
the trilogy 'Power vs force' , 'The Eye of the I' and 'I' are the only part of his opus I've read, but I beleive that it covers the bulk of his ideas.

As to 'dealing' with the 'tactics of legalism'... no idea, my friend. I think if someone COULD find a global appraoch it would stem more than half the religious based strife in the world.
 
Ahh, I'm not good with fancy words and thoughts. Infact they drive me nuts, when it comes to people and things. So i'll tell a story.

December 1980, our cutter sprung a leak, in a very bad place (CIC for you naval types). We pulled into Univak, Alaska, Also known as Unalaska. We had an AIG patrol that would not wait (the Soviets were not going to wait for us...), but the ship we sailed on was flooding, so measures had to be taken.

After conferring with the Captain, the Damage Control Chief declared the repair division could and would fix the problem within six hours. Tall order I must admit. But the Chief forgot human foibles of each man. He assumed he could give orders and they would be carried out. The best senior welder, however could not get over his fear of water drowning him, while he was upside down. I know, strange as it may seem, that was a fear for him. That left the junior welder. (me). I saw him shaking in the shop, before the job, and I felt my heart go out to him. I asked if I could do the job (if he thought I could do it), with him guiding me from the main deck. He said, "yes you can. do you want to?"

No order, just a question. I jumped at the chance! (what a dumn ass I was).

They hung me over the side with welding lead, upside down (the botswain's mates playing fun with the lead lines holding me from the water's edge for a time. (everytime I got dunked into the Alaskan water I shoved the welding lead back past my knees, just to keep from being electrocuted in tiny amounts of voltage, but huge amounts of amperage). But my senior welder encouraged me to continue without telling the game players to stop.

While in the middle of welding, I got dropped into the water...then electricity took control, and then I took control (or my body self preservation). I wrenched that welding lead away from me and climbed up that lead hand over fist, until I reached the main deck. I didn't stop there. I laid out the Second Class Boatswains' mate with one punch. Then turned to face the others. The Chief Boatswains' mate (not knowing what had just happened), came at me like a ton of brick. He sent me at least 30 feet down the deck, where I rang my own bell on the bull nose (I head butted the front of the ship).

When I woke up, there were charges being brought, and apologise going around. And the job was completed by the senior welder...:D Ya baby!

Do you see the potential for humility/humiliation/shame in the above story?

v/r

Q
 
And the moral of the story, when dealing with a**holes, a good right and a straight left can resolve many disputes ;¬) Very like the philosophy of my late father... who was also a craftsman welder (normal steels, special steels, Mag-Al alloys) Despite the fact he teneded to use his fists to resolve an issue, Hebrews 13: 1-8 was the reading I chose that summed him up best...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top