Infringing on Beliefs - To everything there is a Season

Bandit

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A few questions here. No one has to answer the questions or just talk about the ones you want to, but mostly just something to think about.

1) Where/When & should a line be drawn as to when someone is infringing upon anothers beliefs?

2) Is there a time when we should learn to stop discussing particular beliefs to keep peace & continue in love?

3) What signs can you look for & expect when someone might be trying to provoke enmity over beliefs? and are there certain elements/reasons why a belief should not be tolerated? such as terrorism.

4) Are there some beliefs that should be avoided discussing to keep peace & learn to keep things to ourselves?

5) Is your belief enough that you would lay down your life for it?

6) Do you feel that some create complex situations & circumstances, with a hidden agenda & do you feel in general most people do realize what they are doing to make things better or worst?

I am sure more questions are out there, so feel free to bring them up.

I feel that when someone is attempting to prove a belief is wrong & it is done in a trickery manner, the attempt will eventually fail. I personally have learned to stop discussing when I see this.

When I see someone causing pain to another over beliefs I feel it is best to move on to something different & avoid the discussion. Considering that there are 6 billion different beliefs in the world, i am not going to examine & try to figure them all out...when what I already have is working for me.
When a belief brings discord, confusion & contempt & there are many that do, I feel it is best to walk away to prevent bloodshed. Though I know there is a time for this & there are times, we have to go the distance.

When someone is not understanding what I am trying to say & show them, I stop.

I have learned to avoid pain by accepting that there is a reason (unknown or maybe known to me) for why they are into what they are into & I do not repeatedly question them to try & prove them wrong. I still feel the pain but it becomes easier when I accept it.
I keep most of my deepest beliefs to myself, but confess the basics of what I believe. I know that in many places my founding principles in what I believe I will be killed for them & yes I would lay down my life &/or fight before having them removed or asked to deny them. I figure if it is that way, then respect & love has been lost & they will most likely seek to kill me any way.

I know & have seen how quickly differences are put to the side in a time of trouble that men & women can continue to love & move toward a higher goal.




ECCLESIASTES

Chapter 3




1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
 
Bandit said:
A few questions here. No one has to answer the questions or just talk about the ones you want to, but mostly just something to think about.

1) Where/When & should a line be drawn as to when someone is infringing upon anothers beliefs?
I think there's two very solid lines in this forum... one is when derogatory posts about a belief system are made in the area devoted to that belief (e.g. putdowns about Bobism in the Bobism forum). The second is when it becomes a personal attack.

Talking about the universe in general, your right to your freedom to swing your fist stops at my nose... when a persons belief system starts impinging on anothers time, space, property etc, the line needs to be drawn.

Bandit said:
2) Is there a time when we should learn to stop discussing particular beliefs to keep peace & continue in love?
There's a time to stop a specific discussion - and that's when people aren't talking to each other any more, but rather talking to themselves.. sort of the "Did so" "Did not" "did so!!" "Did NOT!!" type of conversation, which isn't really a conversation since (a) nothings being said, (b) one or the other side isn't listening to the other, and (c) is going in circles.

Bandit said:
3) What signs can you look for & expect when someone might be trying to provoke enmity over beliefs? and are there certain elements/reasons why a belief should not be tolerated? such as terrorism.
See my general comment in (1) for the latter. Signs I look for in the former tend to be "you" statements rather than "I" statements. People talking about "I" are usually trying to communicate their ideas. People talking about "you" are usually trying to ram them down someone elses throat....


Will think about my response to the rest later, but the answer to (5) is that I would go further - I would be willing to live my life for it... dying is easy at times... living ones principles is often the hardest thing to do.
 
Bandit said:
A few questions here. No one has to answer the questions or just talk about the ones you want to, but mostly just something to think about.

1) Where/When & should a line be drawn as to when someone is infringing upon anothers beliefs?

2) Is there a time when we should learn to stop discussing particular beliefs to keep peace & continue in love?

3) What signs can you look for & expect when someone might be trying to provoke enmity over beliefs? and are there certain elements/reasons why a belief should not be tolerated? such as terrorism.

4) Are there some beliefs that should be avoided discussing to keep peace & learn to keep things to ourselves?

5) Is your belief enough that you would lay down your life for it?

6) Do you feel that some create complex situations & circumstances, with a hidden agenda & do you feel in general most people do realize what they are doing to make things better or worst?
Good topic. I'll try to respond briefly to these complex questions...

1. I would say that when someone's beliefs are harming someone else it is time to draw a line. I pretty much think as brucegdc does about this one. Personally, I'm fine with any/all beliefs unless they infringe on my personal life.

2. On this forum, I think once I and others have stated the reasons for their beliefs and it is apparent that further discussion will not result in anything that furthers group or personal understanding of the people involved, I figure it's time to end my participation in the discussion. In all discussions of religion, I try to focus on both the similarities and the differences between my beliefs and others', and to end discussions if they seem to be going nowhere. This is easiest in real life, because one can sense when another person is uncomfortable with the conversation, confused, worried, annoyed, or aggressive. If someone is aggressive about their beliefs, pushing them onto me during the discussion, I will defend the reasons behind my beliefs calmly and then exit the conversation in peace and love if it continues in such a manner.

3. I think brucegdc hit a good point with this one too. When someone attacks me (even if this is subtle, like saying they will pray for my "lost" soul), it is very obvious that they are promoting a me vs. you perspective rather than being respectful and courteous in their dialogue. I rarely get miffed in conversations about religion, because as long as it isn't leading to harming someone (like the terrorism example given), I pretty much could care less if others think I'm lost, going to hell, etc. But I do think it is rude to say such things, and will avoid conversing with people who do so. If mutual respect and a sincere desire to understand another's position is not part of the dialogue, what's the point? (Of course, if you're into conversion, that's the point, but I'm not so I have little desire to enter such conversations.)

4. I think this depends on who I'm having a conversation with. If I know someone is uncomfortable about certain beliefs, I don't broadcast them, though I will discuss them if asked. I always try to maintain peace, and in regular life I do not offer my beliefs to any and all. I pretty much wait until someone asks me about my beliefs, and then I am always happy to discuss them, unless it is a forum where that is the point (here or a religious studies group) or with people I am close to and always discussing these things.

5. Yes. But I would not kill for it.

6. Yes. I think there are times that people phrase a narrow-minded view in an open-ended question and then try to steer the discussion toward conversion, which is dishonest in my opinion. If you want to convert me, say so from the beginning, is my take on it. I think most (perhaps all) people, including me, have very little idea about whether they are making things better or worse for others and even themselves. We just sort of bumble along. I feel that God can direct people, though, and give them clarity that they wouldn't normally have. I have had times when I felt drawn to certain people and I was sure it was God directing me to help that person. (But of course, that's based on a certain set of beliefs...)
 
1) Where/When & should a line be drawn as to when someone is infringing upon anothers beliefs?

I should think when one person refuses to accept that a second person in the discussion can have a different view, and is critical for that.

2) Is there a time when we should learn to stop discussing particular beliefs to keep peace & continue in love?

When your head feels like a boiling kettle. :)

3) What signs can you look for & expect when someone might be trying to provoke enmity over beliefs? and are there certain elements/reasons why a belief should not be tolerated? such as terrorism.

Personal criticism, denigration, plain abuse as provocation.

As to beliefs not tolerated - it's already been decided that Neo-Nazism is not an ideology we want to be associated with, not least because of the immense disruption it can cause to CR. Generally, people who wish to discuss their pro-Nazi views are fishing for an audience to engage and promote to.

4) Are there some beliefs that should be avoided discussing to keep peace & learn to keep things to ourselves?

Some beliefs are always going to be extremely contentious and raise passions - in my personal opinion, if a discussion topic means I have only negative things to say, then I'd say that's a warning to myself not to post in a personal capacity.

5) Is your belief enough that you would lay down your life for it?

Personal belief seems to develop and change with us - I think everyone here has at least one story of how their beliefs moved from one extreme to another. So laying down your life for but a stage of a process of growth would seem remarkably premature. :)

6) Do you feel that some create complex situations & circumstances, with a hidden agenda & do you feel in general most people do realize what they are doing to make things better or worst?

Most agendas are relatively easy to spot, but sometimes people can be just plain clumsy, or else misconstrued. Unless somebody is relatively obvious, then I personally shouldn't imagine ill of any member.



I know & have seen how quickly differences are put to the side in a time of trouble that men & women can continue to love & move toward a higher goal.

Absolutely - I live on a precept that our commonalities are more important than our differences - though discussion of our differences can potentially learn to a constructive way in which to view ourselves and the world anew.

2c. :)
 
I said:
5) Is your belief enough that you would lay down your life for it?

Personal belief seems to develop and change with us - I think everyone here has at least one story of how their beliefs moved from one extreme to another. So laying down your life for but a stage of a process of growth would seem remarkably premature. :)
I was thinking yesterday that my post on this topic needed a bit more "fleshing out" as it were, and this reminded me. There are basic foundations of my beliefs for which I would, indeed, lay down my life if it were required. I would not deny my experience of God, even under threat of death. As for the other theological, doctrinal, etc. stuff- that is not essential to me. It is part of my belief system that people have different experiences of God and (of course) different cultural baggage, and so their expressions of Truth are different. It would not bother me to explain my experiences of God, my glimpses of Truth, in a way that made sense to other people. I would not lay down my life for what I see as relatively inconsequential details, but I also would not deny God. Hope that makes sense...
 
i forgot to come back to this & say Thank You for the replies.

i am pretty much on target with what the three of you have said on it.
i know some can get really mad when someone does not agree, but what i think they may not see, is they are not seeing the other point of view & are not even willing to try.
most religious beliefs really do not infringe upon others until someone tries to make it there way or the highway.

& the highway can be a better choice.

thanks again:)
 
I think it is fine, in the context of a discussion about religion, to say. "I don't believe what you do and here's why". It is not, I repeat not, okay to add, "And I think you are an idiot (or evil) for believing it".

I think it is very important to know when to just stop discussing something because someone in the disucssion is starting to get upset. There are times when neither party to the discussion is going to convince the other party of their deeply held position, and to continue is going to cause bad feelings. But, I really like Brian's suggestion; when your brain feels like it's going to pop the top off your skull is a good place to just bring up another, less volatile, subject.

Belligerence is a good sign that someone is not interested in an exchange of ideas but wants to force his or her ideas down everyone else's throat. Never, ever discuss something important with someone who just keeps trying to push their agenda.

I think there are some ideas that should not be discussed in a way that is intended to convince others of their correctness; again, as Brian said, neo-Nazi ideas are not something to discuss in an open forum, either virtual or real. Those with authoritarian beliefs of any sort never want an exchange of ideas, they want to impose their ideas.

I've never believed that dying for a cause accomplishes anything but to increase the bank accounts of the undertakers. I attended a university run by the Mennonite Brethren, and they are very big on pacifism, and in their early history in Europe, many of their followers allowed themselves to be led meekly to the stake rather than fight for what they believed. We heard a lot about them in classes, especially in my Reformation history class. I always felt it was a waste and a disservice to their belief system because that meant that there were fewer people to spread their message, even if it had to be spread surreptitiously at times. Where there is life there is hope.

I hope this has addressed some of your concerns.
 
littlemissattitude said:
I think it is fine, in the context of a discussion about religion, to say. "I don't believe what you do and here's why". It is not, I repeat not, okay to add, "And I think you are an idiot (or evil) for believing it"..
i agree. we can be believeing the same thing but have a different reason for believing it as to how or why we believe it & there is no need to insult, unfourtunately that is something that some only understand.
i think giving the reason is fine also.

I think it is very important to know when to just stop discussing something because someone in the disucssion is starting to get upset. There are times when neither party to the discussion is going to convince the other party of their deeply held position, and to continue is going to cause bad feelings. But, I really like Brian's suggestion; when your brain feels like it's going to pop the top off your skull is a good place to just bring up another, less volatile, subject.
very important to know when to stop. i think rather than convincing it is better to understand what & why a person believes what they do. it can only add to our own understanding for a future discussion with someone. it does not hurt to listen, but it might get very annoying & obnoxious especially if you have already heard it all before. it is better to talk about something different when that happens.

Belligerence is a good sign that someone is not interested in an exchange of ideas but wants to force his or her ideas down everyone else's throat. Never, ever discuss something important with someone who just keeps trying to push their agenda.
yes. but i think it is different when two people have an understanding of what a debate is really about. Debates & discussions are different. IMO
Both sides could be wrong & they could both be right. LOL

I think there are some ideas that should not be discussed in a way that is intended to convince others of their correctness; again, as Brian said, neo-Nazi ideas are not something to discuss in an open forum, either virtual or real. Those with authoritarian beliefs of any sort never want an exchange of ideas, they want to impose their ideas.
this is true also. just because the majority says so, does not mean it is all true. it only takes one little piece of evidence to throw the whole thing back into the shuffle.

littlemissattitude said:
I've never believed that dying for a cause accomplishes anything but to increase the bank accounts of the undertakers. I attended a university run by the Mennonite Brethren, and they are very big on pacifism, and in their early history in Europe, many of their followers allowed themselves to be led meekly to the stake rather than fight for what they believed. We heard a lot about them in classes, especially in my Reformation history class. I always felt it was a waste and a disservice to their belief system because that meant that there were fewer people to spread their message, even if it had to be spread surreptitiously at times. Where there is life there is hope.

I hope this has addressed some of your concerns.
yes. being too passive can be a problem. maybe even a lack of courage.
i feel there is a time to fight & a time to die. Once imprisoned & asked to deny a belief, to deny that belief to keep my life would be saying my belief is not true or not real, then the belief is not worth having. IMO
i dont think we should kill over beliefs & create violence. Yet i do believe in self defense when a belief imposes the freedom of ones life in action. If we did not do this, then there would be no freedom & only the ugly would rule.
if we know we are going to be killed either way, then we should fight for what is right, but not be the individual who starts the fight or imposes on another.
there may be a time when laying down my life brings hope to others.
it can get tricky at times, that is for sure.

i suppose there is a time to not say anything at all.

i do appreciate your thoughts on this littlemissattitude.:)
 
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