Baha'i and Matrixism?

Discussion in 'Modern Religions' started by Awaiting_the_fifth, May 6, 2005.

  1. arthra

    arthra Baha'i

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    For Baha'is there's been no divorce from the Institution of the Guardianship...We continue to observe what the Guardian has interpreted and maintained.

    Here's what the Guardian himself expressed that I think is a very important point:

    "My purpose is this, that ere the expiration of a thousand years, no one has the right to utter a single word, even to claim the station of Guardianship. The Most Holy Book is the Book to which all peoples shall refer, and in it the Laws of God have been revealed. Laws not mentioned in the Book should be referred to the decision of the Universal House of Justice. There will be no grounds for difference... Beware, beware lest anyone create a rift or stir up sedition. Should there be differences of opinion, the Supreme House of Justice would immediately resolve the problems. Whatever will be its decision, by majority vote, shall be the real truth, inasmuch as that House is under the protection, unerring guidance, and care of the one true Lord. He shall guard it from error and will protect it under the wing of His sanctity and infallibility. He who opposes it is cast out and will eventually be of the defeated."

    Source:

    http://bahai-library.com/?file=uhj_unassailable_foundation_cause

    People can claim they are the "guardian" and claim whatever.

    People are free to choose what they want of course and they can call themselves whatever they please but for Baha'is it continues to be an easy choice to make.

    - Art
     
  2. DynoMight

    DynoMight New Member

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    Art,

    I know the Baha'i Faith's position on all of this stuff and I have read what the Orthodox Baha'is have to say also. They seem to have a very legitimate line of succession on the Guardianship as Mason Remey was Shogi Effendi's adopted son. Heck he adopted him at the age of fourty or something. Why else would he do this except that he wanted Remey to succeed him as Guardian. Of course the NSA of France thought the same thing.

    I guess the Orthodox would argue that The Hands of the Cause over stepped their authority by contradicting what Abdul Baha had already written on and canonized. It does seem like a huge contradiction.

    Like I said I know the Baha'i Faith's position on this so I'm not gonna bug you about it anymore but I have to ask just one question. You see I found this quote on an Orthodox Baha'i Faith website: "Divorced from the institution of the Guardianship the World Order of Baha'u'llah would be mutilated". My questions is did Shogi Effendi actually write this?
     
  3. arthra

    arthra Baha'i

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    If as you say "Dyno" you know the Baha'is Faith's position on "all this stuff" then you'd know that we feel it is passing strange and patently absurd that Mason Remey a much older man would be an "adopted son" of Shoghi Effendi.

    Mason Remey served the Faith for many years even in the time of Abdul-Baha and was an architect of some of the proposed Houses of Worship .. He was well liked and appreciated but it's important to note that he signed off being a Guardian after the passing of Shoghi Effendi in 1957 by acknowledging that the Guardian had left no Will or indication of a successor..this cannot be denied. He signed off on this along with the other Hands at the time.

    It was three years later in 1960 that Remey announced he was the next Guardian and stated his "case". By that time Remey was very advanced in years and I believe somewhat befuddled in his thinking.

    His claim to guardianship was very quickly denounced by the Hands of the Cause of God appointed by Shoghi Effendi himself to defend the Cause and all the National Spiritual Assemblies of the Baha'i world with the exception of the NSA of France.. and even the Baha'is of France soon afterwards reconstituted their NSA.

    The Universal House of Justice was the only institution that was provided by Baha'u'llah and later Abdul-Baha and Shoghi Effendi with the authority and right to govern and carry on the Cause of God and that Institution was elected and established in 1963.

    Mason later attempted to appoint additional people as guardians to succeed him but none of them were successful or accepted by the Baha'is and he attempted to set up councils but these were not successful either.

    - Art
     
  4. DynoMight

    DynoMight New Member

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    I beg to differ Art. It seems that there is a succesful schism of the Baha'i Faith. The Orthodox Baha'i Faith is apparently gaining a significant following in India as well as in the USA.

    Apparently Shogi Effendi's adoption of Mason Remey is a matter of record. Why else would the NSA of France have voted the way they did? The fact that he was so old when adopted just further shows Shogi Effendi's intent that he would become the next Guardian of the Faith. As for the NSA of France's reconstitution that was only because they were disbanded by the hands of the cause in order to squelch their vote.

    Without the Living Guardian that is promised in Baha'i scriptures the Administrative Order of Baha'u'llah is without an executive branch. The importance of having an active executive branch was stressed by Baha'u'llah, Abdul Baha and by Shogi Effendi. In the Secret of Divine Civilization Abdul Baha goes on at length about this.

    It seems like a huge contradiction that the universal house of justice cannot contradict any of the mandates of Baha'u'llah, Abdul Baha or Shogi Effendi but that there position of existence without a Guardian came about through such a huge contradiction to what the Prophet had indicated.

    Without an actual executive branch it seems that the Baha'i Faith is frozen in time. Just like a democracy without an executive branch I doubt they will be able to react sufficiently to our quickly changing times.

    Wasn't the Adminstration of the Baha'i Faith supposed to blend the best of what democracy and monarchy had to offer? How can this be when they don't even have an executive branch at all?

    Anyway as told by the Prophet, Master and the first Guardian the Guardianship was supposed to guarantee the Baha'i Faith against schism. They were right about that the guardianship was lost and now there is schism. Sometimes greater sometimes lesser but always schism and that's so not Baha'i.
     
  5. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Staff Member

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    Well, by all accounts, any schism within the Baha'i faith is relatively small by comparison. :)
     
  6. DynoMight

    DynoMight New Member

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    By Comparison to the Heterodox Baha'i Faith the Orthodox Baha'i Faith is a relatively large alternative. You will see that if the Heterodox church grows the Orthodox church will grow proportionally as an alternative. There will never be just one Baha'i church ever again unless something is done to restore the covenant.

    As I eluded to before this loss of the guardianship (the lack of an executive branch) opens the door for religions like Matrixism. Considering the alternative of being stuck in the mud during such turbulent times it may be for the best that not only is there a prophet after Jesus and Muhammad but there will soon be one after Baha'u'llah as well.
     
  7. arthra

    arthra Baha'i

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    Dyno wrote:

    By Comparison to the Heterodox Baha'i Faith the Orthodox Baha'i Faith is a relatively large alternative. You will see that if the Heterodox church grows the Orthodox church will grow proportionally as an alternative. There will never be just one Baha'i church ever again unless something is done to restore the covenant.

    My comment:

    I think the use of the word "church" when applied to the Baha'i Faith is misleading. We are not set up like churches ..that is, we have no professional clergy nor do we Baha'is use the term "church". I think the term "church" is more purely a Christian term.

    Baha'i Faith is set up on the local level per the civic or local jurisdictions...so there can only be one Local Spiritual Assembly per jurisdiction. There must be at least nine adult believers to make up an Assembly.

    We have Conventions on a district level that elect a delegate(s) to attend a National Convention and the delegates in turn elect the nine members of the National Spiritual Assembly (this is true for all nations where Baha'is live except those countries where our Faith is "outlawed")...these in turn send delegates every five years to elect members of the Universal House of Justice that meets in Haifa.

    The only additional point I'd like to mention is that there have been splinter groups and disaffected people in our history but they by and large have not been able to cause any major disunity or schism within our Faith.

    - Art
     
  8. DynoMight

    DynoMight New Member

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    I disagree I think that the Orthodox Baha'i Faith represents a "major" schism. Also judging from the success in terms of popularity of the Jedi religion Matrixism could very well grow into a very significant challenge to the heterodox Baha'i Faith.

    Are you familiar with Matrixism?
     
  9. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Staff Member

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    I'm not sure how Matrixism relates to this thread or the Baha'i faith??
     
  10. DynoMight

    DynoMight New Member

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    Well the name of this thread is "Baha'i and Matrixism". So the relation of the thread to Matrixism should be apparent.

    Matrixism is related to the Baha'i Faith by virtue of what is stated about the Baha'i Faith's role in the emergence of Matrixism on the Matrixism homepage.

    http://www.geocities.com/matrixism2069

    There are also the quotes from the Baha'i sacred writings related to The Matrix.

    http://www.geocities.com/matrixism2069/quotes.html
     
  11. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays New Member

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    Actually, there is only the reference to the Matrix in reference to the womb of the mother before the child is born. This is quite clear if you actually READ any of Abdu'l Baha's talks. Most Matrixists don't bother to do that, sad . . . .

    Anyway, if you want to take a look at the Baha`i Faith and future culture, please read my novel The Sword of the Dajjal coming out in February, 2007.
    [Sci-Fi for pre-orders].

    As to Remeyite Baha`i's? There really aren't any. The Remeyite 'Orthodox' schism shattered at least three more times, dividing over individuals claiming to have been appointed by Remey. Since Remey actually became quite senile he clearly appointed three seperate "Guardians" to succeed him, one of which foreswore any claim to any belief, and another unrelated Fremchman subsequently made a claim to the "Fourth Guardianship".

    No more Remeyites in existence as best I can tell, and I have made some search for them. They are Jensenites, Marangellists and several others, but no Remeyites. He's been dead for more than thirty years.

    For more information on the phenomena of Remey, read: Mason Remey and Those Who Followed Him

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  12. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays New Member

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    Oh, it seems one of the basic tenets of the Matrix believers is the use of drugs and psychedelics. This is highly contrary to the teachings of the Baha`i Faith. No drug for the purpose of altering the consciousness is ever condoned. Baha`u'llah teaches us that the human mind is PERFECT to commune with God. To alter it is to open one's self to the most pernicious of idle fancies and vain imaginings, and is unbelievably dangerous to the soul.

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  13. arthra

    arthra Baha'i

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    "....the human mind is PERFECT to commune with God. To alter it is to open one's self to the most pernicious of idle fancies and vain imaginings, and is unbelievably dangerous to the soul."

    Thanks for sharing that! The perfection of man is a concept that few I think appreciate.

    - Art
     
  14. DynoMight

    DynoMight New Member

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    The point is that the "living guardian" was promised in the Baha'i writings to be the solution to the skisms that often plague religion. Unfortunately as I have said before The Hands of the Cause of the Baha'i faith took it upon themselves to do away with a living guardian. According to the Baha'u'llah own writings this will guarantee skism or the creation of opposing Baha'i Sects. Regardless who leads them and by what name you call them there are many sects of the Baha'i Faith that are alive and if Baha'u'llah's own words are any indication there always will be.

    As for psychedelics creating idle fancy the same charge has been leveled against mysticism in general. Of course without true mysticism a religion has no believable base from which to profess. Again with regard to psychedelics and mystical spiritual experience I direct your attention to a recent study done at Johns Hopkins University: Johns Hopkins Gazette | July 24, 2006

    The Baha'i Faith puts the brakes on mysticism such that no one should reach the ultimate goal of the mystic which is divine union and transcendental awareness. This is plainly done such as to maintain the status quo with regard to not creating new types of social order. But the world keeps on changing (these days very rapidly) and without free mystics or a "living guardian" the Baha'i Faith has no real way to adapt. It is thus stuck in the mud. Perhaps this is the main reason that the ranks of the Baha'i are dwindling.

    ps- By the way that "idle fancies and vain imaginings" quote is weak. It's the Baha'i equivalent of "the Lord works in mysterious ways". People are much more intelligent and well educated these days. They demand actual reasons and proof (Johns Hopkins Gazette | July 24, 2006).
     
  15. arthra

    arthra Baha'i

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    Hmmm... Dyno...

    We've been over this in previous posts on this thread about the Guardianship ...that it continues to be a living institution in our Faith.

    There is mysticism in the Baha'i Faith if you'd care to research it

    See

    Mysticism and the Baha'i Community

    Mysticism and the Baha'i Faith

    Baha'i Mysticism Resources

    and the Faith is growing and adapting as we speak.

    But it has precious little to do with psychedelics or magic "shrooms" or "Matrixism"...

    - Art
     
  16. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays New Member

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    Dyno,

    I begin to wonder if you have a point to make. You seem very ignorant of the workings of the Baha`i Administrative Order.

    You seem to think that Shoghi Effendi as Guardian was within his rights to die without appointing a successor. Abdu'l Baha appointed him to be the Interpreter of the Sacred Writings. He called upon all the Afnan (descendants of the Bab and Baha`u'llah (of whom ONLY Shoghi Effendi and his siblings existed, during the Guardianship all of his siblings became covenant breakers).

    That gives him the right. If he HAD appointed a Guardian it could not have been complete until the House of Justice was elected and convened to ratify the appointment. There was no House of Justice unti 1963.

    The Hands of the Cause of God assembled functioned much like the House of Justice, that's why SHoghi Effendi filled the ranks of the Hands after the passing of his grandfather, Abdu'l Baha.

    When Shoghi Effendi passed away in London in 1957, the Hands assembled in Haifa to go through his desk and documents. They reported that there was no appointment to be found. Shoghi Effendi has no progeny, the Hands -- all 27 of them signed a document saying there was no one to appoint. Mason Remey signed this document.

    Later the Hands announced the House of Justice would be elected in 1963 as Shoghi Effendi had intended. The House would rule on the question of the Guardianship. Baha`u'llah and Abdu'l Baha both had written that the function of the House would be to rule upon matters NOT covered in the Writings. All the Hands lsigned the document--including Mason Remey.

    Later, the Hands voted to exclude themselves from election to the House and service on the International Baha`i Council (the embrionic House) to make the institutions of the Hands and the Council entirely seperate.

    Mason Remey withdrew from the Holy Land without signing that document, though all the other Hands signed. His sole claim to the future Guardianship was his presidency of the Council.

    After this he made his announcement that he was the 2nd Guardian by behest of his presidency of the Internatioinal Baha`i Council. Of the thirty or so National Spiritual Assemblies at the time only the French National Assembly voted to support Remey as Guardian and that by a scant 5-4 vote.

    At that point the Hands of the Cause declared Remey a covenant breaker, and removed him from their number. Now did they have the right to do that?

    Yes, explicitly from the Will and Testament of Abdu'l Baha they had that right and obligation:

    "My object is to show that the Hands of the Cause of God must be ever watchful and so soon as they find anyone beginning to oppose and protest against the Guardian of the Cause of God, cast him out from the congregation of the people of Baha and in no wise accept any excuse from him. How often hath grievous error been disguised in the garb of truth, that it might sow the seeds of doubt in the hearts of men!"
    (Abdu'l-Baha, The Will and Testament, p. 11)

    "Today no power can conserve the oneness of the Bahá'í world save the Covenant of God; otherwise differences like unto a most great tempest will encompass the Bahá'í world. It is evident that the axis of the oneness of the world of humanity is the power of the Covenant and nothing else. Had the Covenant not come to pass, had it not been revealed from the Supreme Pen and had not the Book of the Covenant, like unto the ray of the Sun of Reality, illuminated the world, the forces of the Cause of God would have been utterly scattered and certain souls who were the prisoners of their own passions and lusts would have taken into their hands an axe, cutting the root of this Blessed Tree. Every person would have pushed forward his own desire and every individual aired his own opinion! Notwithstanding this great Covenant, a few negligent souls galloped with their chargers into the battlefield, thinking perchance they might be able to weaken the foundation of the Cause of God: but praise be to God, all of them were afflicted with regret and loss, and ere long they shall see themselves in poignant despair. Therefore, in the beginning one must make his steps firm in the Covenant -- so that the confirmations of Bahá'u'lláh may encircle from all sides, the cohorts of the Supreme Concourse may become the supporters and the helpers, and the exhortations and advices of 'Abdu'l-Bahá, like unto the pictures engraved on stone, may remain permanent and ineffaceable in the tablets of the hearts."
    (Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 425)

    If you want to lament the fall of Mason Remey don't expect the Baha`i's of the world to echo your concerns. He was a positive force in the Baha`i world until his own ego and lust for power caused him to demean all his prior works by breaking the covenant of God.

    The only positive effect he has on the faith anymore at all is that his fate is a warning to those who might be swept away by their own ego and lust for power.

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  17. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays New Member

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    No mysticism in the Faith????????????????

    Mysticism REQUIRES the use of psychedelics??????????????

    More nonsense.


    Mysticism and the faith? It is highly mystical, and it needs no alteration to the consciousness to be mystical.

    The Seven Valleys and the Four Valleys are monuments to the mysticism of the Sufi's. So much that the "Darvish Muhammad" as Baha`u'llah was known to them is one of their most esteemed mystics.

    The Seven Valleys (on Planet Bahá'í)
    "Realms of Consciousness (Nasut)"
    "Reflections on The Seven Valleys"
    The Seven Valleys (illustrated text)
    Study Outline for The Seven Valleys
    The Seven Valleys: A Meditation by George Townshend
    Mystical Aspects of the Bahá'í Faith as presented in The Seven Valleys
    The Realms of Divine Existence as Described in the Tablet of All Food
    What is Bahá'u'lláh's Message to the Sufis?
    Comparison of The Seven Valleys and the American Indian Peace Shield
    The Seven Valleys--Preamble
    The Seven Valleys Magical Mystical Tour Comes to Atlanta!
    The Seven Valleys: Commentary and Text
    The Seven Valleys and The Four Valleys: Preface
    Mystical Work Inspires Playwright
    The Seven Valleys and The Four Valleys: Bahá'u'lláh
    The Seven Valleys and The Four Valleys: English, Persian, Arabic
    The Seven Valleys: Audio Presentation
    The Seven Valleys: Faculty Notes
    The Wisdom of Luqman: Valley of Wonderment
    Bahá'í Writings: The Seven Valleys
    Knowledge Map of The Seven Valleys
    Seven Valleys of Bahá'u'lláh and Farid ud-Din Attar

    The Four Valleys (on Planet Bahá'í)
    The Four Valleys: Tablet Study Outline
    Will, Knowledge, and Love in The Four Valleys
    The Worlds of God
    The Four Valleys: Faculty Notes
    Comparison of Islamic Religious Modes with The Four Valleys of Bahá'u'lláh
    Are the Four Valleys Four Stages in One Path or are They Four Paths?
    The Four Valleys: A Commentary
    The Four Valleys: Russian Text
    Knowledge Map of The Four Valleys
    A Plan for Deepening on The Four Valleys
    The Four Valleys: Audio Presentation

    The Hidden Words (on Planet Bahá'í)
    A History of The Hidden Words
    Conqueror of Hearts
    A Study Guide to The Hidden Words
    The Hidden Words
    Knowledge Map of The Hidden Words
    Concordance for The Arabic Hidden Words
    Hidden Words Affirmations
    Allusion to Progressive Revelation in the Persian Hidden Words
    The Hidden Words: Audio Presentation
    The Hidden Words: Faculty Notes
    The Hidden Words: Compilation from "Lights of Guidance"
    The Hidden Words: Tablet Study Outline
    Love Relationship Between God and Humanity
    The Hidden Words of Baha'u'llah: A Reflection
    Calligraphie de Textes Saints
    The Hidden Words of Bahá'u'lláh
    International Bahá'í Library: Collections
    About The Hidden Words
    A Concordance for The Arabic Hidden Words
    The Leiden List: The Hidden Words
    Commentary on The Hidden Words by Adib Taherzadeh

    The Kitáb-i-Íqán
    The Kitáb-i-Íqán, 1882 Bombay Lithograph Edition
    Glossary to the Kitáb-i-Íqán
    The Station of the Kitáb-i-Íqán
    A Study of the Kitáb-i-Íqán
    Study Outline to the Kitáb-i-Íqán
    Kitáb-i-Íqán in Persian
    Kitáb-i-Íqán in Arabic
    On-Line Course on the Kitáb-i-Íqán from Africa
    Bahá-u-lláh: The Kitáb-I-Íqán
    Companion to the Kitáb-I-Íqán
    Kitáb-i-Íqán: Index
    The Kitáb-i-Íqán
    Seeing With the Eye of God
    Bahá'u'lláh's Prophetology
    Kitáb-i-Íqán
    The Kitáb-i-Íqán: Audio Presentation
    Dating the Kitáb-i-Íqán
    The Kitáb-i-Íqán: An excerpt from Ugo Giachery
    Kitáb-i-Íqán: Faculty Notes
    Kitáb-i-Íqán
    Kitáb-i-Íqán: A Study Guide
    The Book of Certitude: Commentary from God Passes By
    Symbol and Secret
    Quranic Quotations in the Kitab-i-Iqan

    I also recommend the Fire Tablet, the Long Healing Prayer, The Tablet of the Holy Mariner, The Tablet of Ahmad, and the Bab's prayers from the prayer book compilation, particularly the Bab's Prayers for Protection.

    So far without an authorized translation, the Ode of the Dove and the Tablet of All Food. If your Persian is as inadequate as mine is, these are available in provisional translation at Baha`i Studies.

    After you've read the material talk to me about a "lack of mysticism" in the Baha`i Faith. Until you do read them, you're talking through your hat.

    You are telling Baha`i's what they believe, and no one appointed you the Interpreter of the sacred text. There is NO living interpreter of the text. Not even the House of Justice can interpret the text.

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  18. DynoMight

    DynoMight New Member

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    In "The Seven Valleys and The Four Valleys" Baha'u'llah specifically says to step back at what appears to be the threshold of divine union. My interpretation of it (and it is not mine alone) is that this represents an incomplete mystical union with the divine. You are to step back unless you are in complete agreement with someone else's previous revelation. Basically what it says is that if you don't agree with Me then you shouldn't enter into union with the divine. Again it is just a way of maintaining the status quo.

    In fairness this sort of abbreviated or interupted mystical experience isn't exclusive to the Baha'i. Both Islam and the Christian religion use the same principle. Jesus or Muhammud had the revelation about what you should do and how you should behave so don't go having any revelations of your own. While I agree that some people (perhaps many people) do not possess enough innate moral sensibilities to come up with a constructive (or at least benign) revelation that does not mean that everyone should avoid complete mystical experience. In fact I argue to not allow good people to have this experience weakens nearly everyone's religious experience.

    On the subject of all the Baha'i splinter groups; "The institution of a 'living' Guardian" are just words without meaning. The living guardian written of by Baha'u'llah was unabiguously meant to be an living (meaning alive on this earth not dead only to be recognized as a concept) man. Afterall in Islam Muhammud is spiritually alive and well and is considered to guide the clerics. The same goes for Christianity. Jesus is alive and guides us. None of this has kept either Islam or Christianity from splintering into many factions and the same clearly applies to the Baha'is. Baha'is however take solice in the fact that any one sect of the Baha'i Faith isn't that large. This is merely the case because the Baha'i Faith in total isn't that large. Afterall Christianity held together pretty well in its early formation. It wasn't until it became a popular religion that you had the development of major sects. The Baha'i await "Entry by Troops" with zeal but what they do not expect (and will certainly find) is that with their success these minor skisms will become major fractures. I for one do not think that it will ever come to that. The Baha'i Faith's numbers are dwindling as we speak. Time for a new revelation.

    What say you Popeye (and any other Baha'is) to the study on mystical experince done by Johns Hopkins University (Johns Hopkins Gazette | July 24, 2006)? Baha'is are supposed to embrace the resolution of science and religion. They aren't supposed to ignore science as that way leads to superstition according to Baha'u'llah and Abdul Baha.
     
  19. arthra

    arthra Baha'i

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    Dyno,

    For your information, Baha'is are not Sufis and do not have the same doctrines of mysticism held say by Vedantists or schools of pantheism.

    Quoting from your Johns Hopkins article:

    "The authors acknowledge the unusual nature of the work, treading, as it does, a fine line between neuroscience and areas most would consider outside the realm of science."

    It would seem this is still an experimental area and the findings are still controversial even among scientists themselves. So Baha'is are not ignoring it and will await what the course of experiments to see how it can best be used perhaps therapeutically so there is no conflict with Baha'i Faith so long as competent physicians are involved.

    - Art
     
  20. DynoMight

    DynoMight New Member

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    Of course Baha'is are not Sufi. But they do have things in commom. Namely that they are not really allowed to enter full revelation.

    In Matrixism people are not only allowed to enter full revelation but they encouraged to do so. Also for your information Matrixism is not the same as pantheism.
     

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