Jesus and other saviors...

[Amica]

I found some interesting information both on the internet and in the libraries/book stores. It seems to me personally, that in order to win the religious competition in the old times and to avoid persecution, early Christian leaders may have adopted some of the ealier pagan believes. I do not mean to hurt anyone's feelings, but I would like to discuss this with all of you who come to this forum. Here is something I found about Jesus in comparision with other 'saviors': Horus, Krishna and Jesus. Please see below:
Comparison of some life events of Horus and Jesus:
Horus: born by a virgin, 'only begotten son of god Osiris,' his mother's name was Meri, his foster father's name was Seb, he is of royal descent, born in a cave, birth hearalded by star Sirius, his birth was celebrated on Dec. 21st, angels announced his birth, shephards witnessed his birth, later three dieties witnessed his birth, was threatened by murder when he was a baby, no history date of his life between the ages of 12 and 30, was baptized in the river Eridanus at the age of 30, his baptizer was beheaded, had twelve followers, walked on water, casted out demons, healed sick, raised his father Osirus from dead/grave.
Jesus: born of a virgin, his mother's name was Mary, 'only begotten son of Yehovah,' of royal descent, angel announced his birth to his mother, birth hearalded by an unidentified star from the East, his birth is celebrated Dec. 25th, shephards witnessed his birth, three wise men witnessed his birth, Herod threatened to have Jesus murdered, no date of his life between the age of 12 and 30, was baptized in river Jordan, his baptizer was beheaded, walked on water, healed sick and casted out demons, raized Lazarus from the grave.

Comparision between Jesus and Krishna:
Krishna: believed to be incarnated Supreme Being in hinduism, the incarnation of the Vishnu the Godhead of the Hindu Trinity of dieties, claimed to be the beginning and the end and that he is half man half divine.
Jesus: believed to be God incarnate among the Christian Trinity, claimed to be half human half divine according to the Gospels,etc.

*I personally found at least 5 of the 'saviors' that are very similar to Jesus described in the New Testament.

Do any of you think it could be possible that the New Testament borrowed older stories from other faiths?

 

[InLove]

Hi, Salaam, Shalom, (And other greetings I have not learned yet!) Peace to all here

Amica, I would be very interested in reading what you have read--do you have any links or references?

I have never heard some of this--I have always read that Horus (actually there is more than one, with various forms of the name) was the son of Osirus and Isis. I have not read about any of the other things you mentioned in connection with Horus.

Also, I have never read in the Gospels (with which I am pretty familiar) that Christ ever claimed to be half human and half divine. In fact, He did not talk much about about His own divinity at all. Anyway, most Christians believe He was fully God and fully man--not half and half.

I will have to re-read a bit about Vishnu Krishna--I don't remember enough at the moment to address that comparison.

There are events in the Bible that do coincide to a certain degree with other accounts in different religions. Mostly in the Old Testament. I have not seen much comparison with the New Testament. And certainly quite a lot of literature does introduce a "Christ figure."

Interesting question--let me know if you can where to find the reading material you mentioned.

InPeace,
InLove

 

[iBrian]

I'm sure I've seen this before - I think we've even covered it here, a long time ago.

If I'm right, then the actually examples being provided are supplied by one particular website, which effectively rewrites different religious traditions into the mould of Christian doctrines - and then stands aghast that different religious traditions are all similar to Christian doctrines!

So far as I understand it, a lot of the comparisons in the examples worked on are extremely erroneous - for example, the Horus and Krishna stories as particularly illustrative of the confusion.

I don't believe I've read a single ancient Egyptian treatise that makes any such a set of claims for Horus, but there is apparently a single website that does.

 

[FriendRob]

Amica, I agree with the other posters. I think you'll find that most of these "parallels" are greatly exaggerated, if not outright false. For instance, the story of Osiris says he got chopped up into tiny pieces that were spread around the world. Then his wife Isis (and son Horus? I don't remember) went around the world and gathered the pieces. They found them all except for his penis. (No, I'm not making this up.) They put him back together, and as evidence that he had returned to life, his finger moved. Yes, that was Osiris's great resurrection accomplishment: moving his finger.

This is not to say that there was NO influence on Christianity from egyptian religion. The language used for Jesus in Luke 1 can be traced to the language used for egyptian kings, for instance. But whenever someone tells you "Christianity is nothing more than [fill in ancient religion here] warmed over," be very suspicious.

 

[arthra]

Amica wrote:

Do any of you think it could be possible that the New Testament borrowed older stories from other faiths?

My reply:

I think the term "borrowing" implies too much conscious intent to manipulate earlier scriptures ... I don't think that it was as conscious or deliberate so much as part of the shared religious culture.

I think all scriptures tend to build on previous ones. Consider of course the references throughout the NT to the Torah etc. and the Qur'an on the Bible, etc.

I think there are likely connections between the Christianity and Zoroastrianism and Judaism... The Hellenistic influence was also very strong in the Mediterranean, But I also believe the NT was unique from it's own spiritual revelation perspective

 

[path_of_one]

I'd agree with those that say the "pagan religion warmed over" model just doesn't work to describe Christianity.

However, it is true that Christianity today has many pagan influences- from Zoroastrianism, various European indigenous traditions (we got a lot of our saints from the goddesses and gods of old), etc. This is because, like all successful world religions, Christianity adapted as a religion as it entered new cultures. We see the same trends more recently as it entered various American cultures (yielding distinct "flavors" of Catholicism and Protestantism, as well as new syncretic religions like Voodoo). But there is a difference between the original revelation being "pagan religion warmed over" and the religion adapting to fit local cultural needs after the fact.

Secondly, it is true that various concepts in Christianity are similar to those in many other religions. You'll find that this is the case for all religions everywhere. You can chalk it up to any number of causal factors, including the way human cognition works- but as a spiritual person I chalk it up to all these people being in contact with the same Divine Being and Process, but interpreting this in ways that make sense given their cultural, historical, and linguistic contexts. For example, there are lots of similarities between certain druidic myths and the trinity idea of Christianity, but these concepts are uniquely described in ways that made sense in their cultural contexts. If you read a lot of the mythology and sacred texts of the religions all over, you find the same basic ideas. You also find that the way people describe the supernatural has a lot to do with their social structure. For example- nearly all hunter-gatherer peoples all over the world have an animistic belief system in which nature is sentient and shamans are capable of soul travel. Another example- monotheism seems to arise only with state level social organization and is generally preceeded by polytheism. If you know anything about the social organization of hunter-gatherers versus state-level agriculturists, then it makes perfect sense why their religions describe the Divine the way they do.

So, any apparent similarity between Christ and other saviors (and yes, there are other savior figures in various religions, though not quite so similar to Jesus as presented) may well be a result of people's similar experience of the Divine, rather than some intentional borrowing on the part of the writers of the NT.

 

[Vimalakirti]

I'd agree with those that say the "pagan religion warmed over" model just doesn't work to describe Christianity.

However, it is true that Christianity today has many pagan influences- from Zoroastrianism, various European indigenous traditions (we got a lot of our saints from the goddesses and gods of old), etc. This is because, like all successful world religions, Christianity adapted as a religion as it entered new cultures. We see the same trends more recently as it entered various American cultures (yielding distinct "flavors" of Catholicism and Protestantism, as well as new syncretic religions like Voodoo). But there is a difference between the original revelation being "pagan religion warmed over" and the religion adapting to fit local cultural needs after the fact.

Secondly, it is true that various concepts in Christianity are similar to those in many other religions. You'll find that this is the case for all religions everywhere. You can chalk it up to any number of causal factors, including the way human cognition works- but as a spiritual person I chalk it up to all these people being in contact with the same Divine Being and Process, but interpreting this in ways that make sense given their cultural, historical, and linguistic contexts. For example, there are lots of similarities between certain druidic myths and the trinity idea of Christianity, but these concepts are uniquely described in ways that made sense in their cultural contexts. If you read a lot of the mythology and sacred texts of the religions all over, you find the same basic ideas. You also find that the way people describe the supernatural has a lot to do with their social structure. For example- nearly all hunter-gatherer peoples all over the world have an animistic belief system in which nature is sentient and shamans are capable of soul travel. Another example- monotheism seems to arise only with state level social organization and is generally preceeded by polytheism. If you know anything about the social organization of hunter-gatherers versus state-level agriculturists, then it makes perfect sense why their religions describe the Divine the way they do.

So, any apparent similarity between Christ and other saviors (and yes, there are other savior figures in various religions, though not quite so similar to Jesus as presented) may well be a result of people's similar experience of the Divine, rather than some intentional borrowing on the part of the writers of the NT.

Excellent summary. Cheers.

 

[arthra]

Path of one wrote:

I chalk it up to all these people being in contact with the same Divine Being and Process, but interpreting this in ways that make sense given their cultural, historical, and linguistic contexts.

My comment:

Yep that would be my belief. That the great religions have a common Origin.

- Art

 

[Amica]

Hello everyone,
sorry for replying so late to this with my references. I found a lots of information online about the supposed myths about Jesus as viewed in the Christian faith, and below are some of the books I have read:
1) "The Truth Behind The Christ Myth" by Mark Amaru Pinkham
2) "The Jesus Mysteries" by Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy
I will come back again with more. I am going to work so do not have enough time right now.

 

[Faithfulservant]

I found some interesting information both on the internet and in the libraries/book stores. It seems to me personally, that in order to win the religious competition in the old times and to avoid persecution, early Christian leaders may have adopted some of the ealier pagan believes. I do not mean to hurt anyone's feelings, but I would like to discuss this with all of you who come to this forum. Here is something I found about Jesus in comparision with other 'saviors': Horus, Krishna and Jesus. Please see below:
Comparison of some life events of Horus and Jesus:
Horus: born by a virgin, 'only begotten son of god Osiris,' his mother's name was Meri, his foster father's name was Seb, he is of royal descent, born in a cave, birth hearalded by star Sirius, his birth was celebrated on Dec. 21st, angels announced his birth, shephards witnessed his birth, later three dieties witnessed his birth, was threatened by murder when he was a baby, no history date of his life between the ages of 12 and 30, was baptized in the river Eridanus at the age of 30, his baptizer was beheaded, had twelve followers, walked on water, casted out demons, healed sick, raised his father Osirus from dead/grave.
Jesus: born of a virgin, his mother's name was Mary, 'only begotten son of Yehovah,' of royal descent, angel announced his birth to his mother, birth hearalded by an unidentified star from the East, his birth is celebrated Dec. 25th, shephards witnessed his birth, three wise men witnessed his birth, Herod threatened to have Jesus murdered, no date of his life between the age of 12 and 30, was baptized in river Jordan, his baptizer was beheaded, walked on water, healed sick and casted out demons, raized Lazarus from the grave.

Comparision between Jesus and Krishna:
Krishna: believed to be incarnated Supreme Being in hinduism, the incarnation of the Vishnu the Godhead of the Hindu Trinity of dieties, claimed to be the beginning and the end and that he is half man half divine.
Jesus: believed to be God incarnate among the Christian Trinity, claimed to be half human half divine according to the Gospels,etc.

*I personally found at least 5 of the 'saviors' that are very similar to Jesus described in the New Testament.

Do any of you think it could be possible that the New Testament borrowed older stories from other faiths?

Considering that that the OT predicted Christ 1000 years before He was even born... no I do not.

 

[Bandit]

well, i guess anyone can make anyone they want to be there savior. LOL

but I think I will stick with Jesus for reasons beyond what has been written.

 

[Nitai]

points on saviour(s)

* a saviour has to be a pure sole who has love of God
* or at least one who strictly follows the teachings of a pure soul
* he is teaching pure religion not mixed with any material motives
* material motives are: desire for wealth; to become relieved from distress; desire for name, fame, distinction.
* to approach God and pray for these things are not the teachings of pure religion.
* pure religion is unmotivated, uninterrupted
* pure religion teach how to love God
* it doesn't teach business with God
* a real saviour follows the pure teachings of pure religion
* thus he is example for all who like to follow him to attain similar purity and love of God.


* anyone who is a saviour is chosen by God and empowered by Him
* The saviour is recognized by the following qualities

* The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: Fearlessness; purification of one’s existence; cultivation of spiritual knowledge; charity; self-control; performance of sacrifice; study of the Vedas; austerity; simplicity; nonviolence; truthfulness; freedom from anger; renunciation; tranquillity; aversion to faultfinding; compassion for all living entities; freedom from covetousness; gentleness; modesty; steady determination; vigor; forgiveness; fortitude; cleanliness; and freedom from envy and from the passion for honor—these transcendental qualities, O son of Bharata, belong to godly men endowed with divine nature.
* pure religion teach only to please God

sometimes God Himself and sometimes His representatives come to save the people engrossed in materialistic life.
* There are many incarnation of God
* there are many saviours who came and will come
* REASON: God's compassion that everybody becomes inspired, in all times places and circumstances.
* Therefore, inspiration to take up the pure religious principles are given by the presence of God Himself or his representatives who do become saviours only by sweet God's will.


Hare Krishna