The Christian Trinity

Discussion in 'Christianity' started by Amulek, Jun 4, 2005.

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  1. mee

    mee Interfaith Forums

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    sorry but your answer proves that you do not know what the true beliefs of JW are.and again your answer proves that you are listening to the wrong source. extensive research from disillusioned ones is the wrong source. as it does not give you accurate knowledge . i am quite sure that you would not be that easily misled . yes Jesus sure does set us free .i know i have been set free from falsehoods .and as you say that you are informed you would be aware of what this scripture is refering to
    "And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring."—John 10:16.but maybe that is for another thread

     
  2. mee

    mee Interfaith Forums

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    JESUS never claimed to be God. Everything he said about himself indicates that he did not consider himself equal to God in any way—not in power, not in knowledge, not in age.




    In every period of his existence, whether in heaven or on earth, his speech and conduct reflect subordination to God. God is always the superior, Jesus the lesser one who was created by God

     
  3. Faithfulservant

    Faithfulservant Well-Known Member

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    Hmm

    Matthew 4:6 and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down. For it is written: 'He shall give His angels charge over you,' and, 'In their hands they shall bear you up, Lest you dash your foot against a stone.' " 7 Jesus said to him, "It is written again, 'You shall not tempt the Lord your God.' " 8 Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 And he said to Him, "All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me." 10 Then Jesus said to him, "Away with you, Satan! For it is written, 'You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.' " 11 Then the devil left Him, and behold, angels came and ministered to Him.

    Jesus was in the wilderness being tempted by satan... and Jesus just happened to say to the devil that you shall not tempt the Lord your God. Glory to the Lord forever and ever! Out of His own mouth.

    ohhh and we are to only worship the Lord our God?

    Matthew 2:2 saying, "Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we have seen His star in the East and have come to worship Him."

    Matthew 8:2 And behold, a leper came and worshiped Him, saying, "Lord, if You are willing, You can make me clean."

    MAtthew 9:18 While He spoke these things to them, behold, a ruler came and worshiped Him, saying, "My daughter has just died, but come and lay Your hand on her and she will live."

    Matthew 14:33 Then those who were in the boat came and worshiped Him, saying, "Truly You are the Son of God."

    MAtthew 15:25 Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, "Lord, help me!"

    Mark 5:6 When he saw Jesus from afar, he ran and worshiped Him

    Luke 24:52 And they worshiped Him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy,

    John 9:38 Then he said, "Lord, I believe!" And he worshiped Him.

    John 10:30 I and My Father are one."

    out of his own mouth.

     
  4. Faithfulservant

    Faithfulservant Well-Known Member

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    The Father is greater than the Son.. Jesus was fully man.. and fully God..

    John 17:1-5 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

     
  5. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    But he most certainly did mee. He repeated what God stated in Isaiah. "I AM" and "I AM WHO AM". What did you expect? Jesus would say in English "I am God"? He said it in Hebrew and in Aramaic! We cannot expect the Bible to conform to our way of words...maybe the Jews are right. Maybe we'd better learn Hebrew and Greek, if we want to know the exact wording. But then that is only half the understanding (knowing the language that is). One must live as they did and see as they saw, in order to get true understanding. Something we can never do.

    However, in any language "I AM WHO AM" is pretty singular, encompassing and Specific. Jesus said He is God.

    v/r

    Q
     
  6. Chalice

    Chalice I am the Grail

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    Hate to break this to you, but in Exodus 3:13 Eloheme ("the" Hebrew word that means Self Existant, uncreated, first being) explains to Moses that he is NAMED YHWH (Jehovah), which means "I AM". Jesus Christ calls himself "I AM", and his miraculous acts are synonymous with the OT Jehovah, who physically appears to Moses, Joshua, and others in the Hebrew Scriptures. From this we can know that Eloheme, who is Jehovah, is Jesus. Further, the Hebrew prayer, the "SH'MA" States:

    "Sh'ma Y'Israel: Adonai, Eloheynu, Adonai: Echad", (exact translation):
    "Listen Israel: Jehovah=Eloheme=Jehovah: Indivisible

    Jesus explained this prayer when he told the pharasees that the most important law was to worship only God and the 2nd law: love others as yourself.

    It is very difficult to understand ancient scriptures, because we have a "translation" and dont understand the dynamics of the language. If you get Strong's Exhaustive Concordance (big fat book, only $20.00) you can look up the words God, Jehovah, Jesus, and one. You will also find that there are 2 hebrew words for "one", and it can either refer to a pair or grouping, or a solid object. The word "echad" means a solid object, not a grouping. So Jehovah, Eloheme, Jesus is a solid "object", not a grouping. Hope this helps you.
     
  7. mee

    mee Interfaith Forums

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    John 17:3, RS: "[Jesus prayed to his Father:] This is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God ["who alone art truly God," NE], and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent." (Notice that Jesus referred not to himself but to his Father in heaven as "the only true God.")




    John 20:17, RS: "Jesus said to her [Mary Magdalene], ‘Do not hold me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’" (So to the resurrected Jesus, the Father was God, just as the Father was God to Mary Magdalene. Interestingly, not once in Scripture do we find the Father addressing the Son as "my God.".......yes Jehovah God is most certainly the I AM WHAT I AM there is no dought about that .but we have to get the context of scripture right

    Matt. 4:10: "Jesus said to him: ‘Go away, Satan! For it is written, "It is Jehovah ["the Lord," KJ and others] your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service."’" (Jesus was obviously not saying that he himself was to be worshiped.)​

    John 8:54: "Jesus answered [the Jews]: ‘If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father that glorifies me, he who you say is your God.’" (The Hebrew Scriptures clearly identify Jehovah as the God that the Jews professed to worship. Jesus said, not that he himself was Jehovah, but that Jehovah was his Father. Jesus here made it very clear that he and his Father were distinct individuals.)

    Ps. 110:1: "The utterance of Jehovah to my [David’s] Lord is: ‘Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.’" (At Matthew 22:41-45, Jesus explained that he himself was David’s "Lord," referred to in this psalm. So Jesus is not Jehovah but is the one to whom Jehovah’s words were here directed.)

    Phil. 2:9-11: "For this very reason also God exalted him [Jesus Christ] to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. [Dy reads: " . . . every tongue should confess that the Lord Jesus Christ is in the glory of God the Father." Kx and CC read similarly, but a footnote in Kx acknowledges: " . . . the Greek is perhaps more naturally rendered ‘to the glory,’" and NAB and JB render it that way.]" (Notice that Jesus Christ is here shown to be different from God the Father and subject to Him.)

     
  8. Eternal_Life

    Eternal_Life Member

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    People can believe what they want, but dont say that the Bible or Jesus does not make the claim that Jesus is God, because it surely does:


    Who hath wrought and done [it], calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I [am] he. -- Isa. 41:4

    Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and beside me [there is] no God. -- Isa. 44:6

    Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I [am] he; I [am] the first, I also [am] the last. -- Isa. 48:12


    I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. -- Rev. 1:8

    And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. -- Rev. 21:6

    And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive; -- Rev. 2:8

    Did God die?
     
  9. Salim Syed

    Salim Syed Islamic Perspective

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    Peace be upon you,

    As a Muslim looking into Christianity from the outside, I feel that the confusion about the person of Prophet Jesus has been clarified by Almighty God in the Holy Quran. All the conjecture about his being God, Son of God, Messiah and Prophet of God is clarified.

    There are many Islamic books which go through the history of how Jesus (peace be upon) was sent as a Prophet just like all other Prophets (pease be upon all of them). He called people to the worship of the one unseen God, he followed the divine laws as did the Prophets before him (like Moses) and the last Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessing be upon him).

    The message from Prophet Adam and all the other Prophets was one: worhip God alone and to do worship man made Gods. Abide by the divine laws which are there to protect mankind from harming themselves and others.

    The debate over the confusion of Jesus in Christianity will continue until Prophet Jesus returns (as stated in Islam and Christianity).

    And [on account of] their saying: "We killed the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Messenger of God." They did not kill him and they did not crucify him, but it was made to seem so to them. Those who argue about him are in doubt about it. They have no real knowledge of it, just conjecture. But they certainly did not kill him. (Qur'an, 4:157)

    I come confirming the Torah I find already there, and to make lawful for you some of what was previously forbidden to you. I have brought you a Sign from your Lord. So fear God and obey me. God is my Lord and your Lord so worship Him. That is a straight path." (Qur'an, 3:50-51)
    "I have brought you a Sign from your Lord. I will create the shape of a bird out of clay for you and then breathe into it, and it will be a bird by God's permission. I will heal the blind and the leper and bring the dead to life, by God's permission. I will tell you what you eat and what you store up in your homes. There is a Sign for you in that if you believe." (Qur'an, 3:49)

    Remember when God said: "Jesus, son of Mary, remember My blessing to you and to your mother when I reinforced you with the Purest Spirit so that you could speak to people in the cradle and when you were fully grown; and when I taught you the Book and Wisdom, and the Torah and the Gospel; and when you created a bird-shape out of clay by My permission, and then breathed into it and it became a bird by My permission; and healed the blind and the leper by My permission; when you brought forth the dead by My permission; and when I held back the Children of Israel from you, when you brought them the Clear Signs and those who did not believe said: 'This is nothing but downright magic.'" (Qur'an, 5:110)

    Jesus remained true to the Mosaic law (the commandments of the Torah) and reprimanded the Jews for straying from them or their hypocritical practice. According to the New Testament, he told them: "If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me" (John 5:46). Jesus called people to return to the Torah. The Gospel of Matthew records his order to abide by the Mosaic law ("the holy law"):

    I did not come to destroy, but to fulfill. (Matthew 5:17)

    Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so shall be called least in the kingdom of Heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of Heaven. (Matthew 5:19)

    The Qur'an says the following about Jesus:

    [Jesus said,] "I come confirming the Torah I find already there, and to make lawful for you some of what was previously forbidden to you. I have brought you a Sign from your Lord. So fear God and obey me." (Qur'an, 3:50)
    When God said: "Jesus, I will take you back and raise you up to Me, and purify you of those who are unbelievers. And I will place the people who follow you above those who are unbelievers until the Day of Resurrection. Then you will all return to Me, and I will judge between you regarding the things about which you differed. (Qur'an, 3:55)

    Hope this helps throw some light onto this subject that has been debated for the last 2000 years...

    Bye
     
  10. mee

    mee Interfaith Forums

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    iSAIAH 41;4 this is refering to Jehovah God........ Isaiah 44;6 this is refering to Jehovah God .and Isaiah 48;12 is refering to Jehovah God .also rev 1;8 is refering to Jehovah God .but rev 2;8 is refering to Jesus Christ .this scripture is saying that Jesus was the first to be resurrected by Jehovah God with immortality like his Father Jehovah God .But Jesus is the last to be resurrected by Jehovah, because all of the rest of the resurrections after Jesus resurection ,will be done by non other than Jesus himself, because Jehovah has given Jesus the Authority to resurrect
    This Jesus God resurrected, of which fact we are all witnesses. Therefore because he was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised holy spirit from the Father, he has poured out this which YOU see and hear....acts 2;32-33 ...yes Jehovah resurrected Jesus

    God raised this One up on the third day and granted him to become manifest..acts 10;40

    and I became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of Ha´des....rev 1;18yes Jesus has been given the symbolic keys to unlock the gates for those bound by death and hades(gravedom)

    (John 6:54) He that feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life, and I shall resurrect him at the last day;...yes Jesus will do the resurrecting.....and rev 21;6 is non other than Jehovah God he is the one, as his name suggests, that causes to become.

     
  11. Faithfulservant

    Faithfulservant Well-Known Member

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    what about my post mee.. you just completely skipped over it.. and its twice in our correspondence that you have done so. I interested in your explanation of it.
     
  12. Eternal_Life

    Eternal_Life Member

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    Jesus claimed to be God in John 8:58... "Before Abraham was I am." Through out his ministry Jesus was consistantly being changed for blasphemy - making himself to be God and/or equal to God. Old Testament prophecies, such as Danial's 70th Week Prophecy, declears Jesus as the Masheck Nagi (Messiah the King). The relgious Jews understood Jesus making himself out to be God, why dont you? The deciples called Jesus God, why not you? The Book of Hebrews calls Jesus God, why not you. What, you dont think believing in Jesus as God makes a difference?

    Jesus said, "Unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins."--John 8:24

    Study your bible without the aid of the JW's hand book to understanding Christianity, and you will see that Jesus is God.

    Thank you Lord God Jesus for humbling yourself unto much suffering and dying for a murder, liar, adulterous hyprocrate like me. You saved a wretch like me, and I love you! You died to make me free and all I want to do now, is to be your slave!
     
  13. Eternal_Life

    Eternal_Life Member

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    Also, I just wanted to add that in context of what Rev. 1:8 is saying, its obvious to see that Jesus is the one being referred to as "the First and Last." How is it that you see different?
     
  14. mee

    mee Interfaith Forums

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    The question of the Jews ( John 8verse 57) to which Jesus was replying had to do with age, not identity. Jesus’ reply logically dealt with his age, the length of his existence

    A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research, by A. T. Robertson: "The verb [ei·mi´] . . . Sometimes it does express existence as a predicate like any other verb, as in [e·go´ ei·mi´] (Jo. 8:58)."—Nashville, Tenn.; 1934, p. 394. so we have to get the context right in the translations and verse 57 clears it up .so Jesus wasnt saying he was Jehovah God he was truthfully saying he was before abraham because Jesus had a pre-human life in the heavens before coming to earth so he had been before abraham, Jesus never claimed to be God he claimed to be Gods son

    Jesus said to them: "Most truly I say to YOU, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been

    Joh 8:58—"before Abraham came into existence, I have been"

    Gr., πρ
    ιν ᾿Αβρααµ γενέσθαι εγω ειµί

    (prin A·bra·am´ ge·ne´sthai e·go´ ei·mi´)

     
  15. mee

    mee Interfaith Forums

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    I am the Al´pha and the O·me´ga," says Jehovah God, "the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty. rev 1;8 the reason being that as one of JW i believe that Jehovah God is the correct translation of this verse please see .... christian Greek scriptures in 12 languages, including Heb. by Elias Hutter, Nuremberg 1599

     
  16. mee

    mee Interfaith Forums

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    Yes the father is greater than the son , and Jesus was in the heavens with his father before he came to the earth. he was even with his father in the heavens before the world was .infact Jesus was with his father when the earth was created because Jesus created all things with power from God



    (John 1:1) In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.




    (John 8:58) Jesus said to them: "Most truly I say to YOU, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been."





    (Colossians 1:15) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation

     
  17. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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  18. mee

    mee Interfaith Forums

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  19. Eternal_Life

    Eternal_Life Member

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    Once again you revert back to the JW's guide to misunderstanind the Bible, and once again you're wrong. Jesus said "I am", which is e-go' ei-me in the Greek. The Jews understood what Jesus was saying as they tried to kill him for saying it. Do you HONESTLY think they was going to stone Jesus because he said he was "before" Abraham? Come on man, acknowledge Jesus as who he claimed to be - GOD!
     
  20. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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