Why God Permits Suffering to Humankind

tommy said:
Would life be any different today?
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Yes. We wouldn't have the source of all our suffering, which is truly believing that we are separated from God. When one is embraced by God, and overcomes this separation, one's spiritual development begins and eventually suffering ceases to be. Some people reach a state of being beyond suffering here on earth, during their lifetime. Some don't, but realize it after death. It is a journey that, as you said, requires devotion.

I don't believe Eve was a literal person, but it doesn't really matter. Either way, humanity chose to follow their own desires and quest for power rather than humbling themselves and choosing God's will. And from these choices of humankind throughout our history we have the mess we're in today. I still believe each one of us has, individually, the capacity to turn toward God and devote ourselves to His will, to be embraced by God and be on the path toward alleviating suffering- our own and others'. If humanity as a whole did this, I believe it would usher in the Kingdom of God. "The Kingdom of God is in the midst of you" (alternatively translated as, "within you").
 
path_of_one said:
I don't believe Eve was a literal person, but it doesn't really matter. Either way, humanity chose to follow their own desires and quest for power rather than humbling themselves and choosing God's will.
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Please be careful & considerate with things like this Path. When Jesus spoke of the blood of Abel who was a literal direct offspring of Eve, he was refering to literal blood & a literal murder.
He was not telling a parable or a myth.

When Jesus said he was before Abraham, he was literally before Abraham.

Abraham was a literal person & is tracked through the literal lineage of Jesus & the literal Jesus was literally before the literal person Abraham, because Jesus was before & is also, by & from the seed of Abraham & from the literal David, who are from the seed of Seth, who is from the seed of a literal man called Adam & it was a literal human seed.

I am sorry, but You are going to get your types & shadows mixed up by doing this, so yes it does matter.:)
I do love you & I know you mean no harm, but I also know what mysticism gets into & there will be conflicts if we are not careful.
 
Love and peace to you all and I sincerely hope I do not offend anyone by this post, I do not mean to do so because I know we have differing beliefs and that is why we came here since this is a comparative site. OK, these are all very good responses which I concur with for the most part. So now that we are somewhat in agreement that we suffer today from what occurred in the beginning of creation, the question comes up as to where to we go when we die. Read Revelation 12:7-9 about the new Heaven which I will quote, And war broke out in Heaven: Michael (is this Jesus or Michael the great prince?) and his angels battled with the dragon, and the angels battled but did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in Heaven. So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan who is misleading the entire inhabited earth, he was hurled down in the earth and his angels were hurled down with him.If the devil and Satan were hurled down from Heaven, is there a Hell because why would Satan be in Heaven? I also cannot find the word Purgatory in the Bible. I don’t believe there is a Hell. Genesis 2:7 tells us that God created Adam out of dust. Genesis 7:22 tells us that God created the force of life that is active in earthly living creatures. The force was then sustained by the breathing process. Psalms 146:4 says Adams spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground, in that day his thoughts do perish. Genesis 3:19 says for dust you are, and dust you will return. At death Adam would simply cease to exist! It is Gods purpose to rescue us from the Adamic death. God refers to the dead as being asleep. For example when Lazerus died, Jesus referred to Lazerus as going asleep and said he was going on a journey to awake him. Jesus said plainly Lazerus has died - John 11:11,14. Jesus told Martha your brother will rise. Martha said, I know he will rise in the ressurection on the last day John 11:23,24. She did not believe that Lazerus had gone to some spirit realm to continue his existence. The remedy was resurrection. Jesus also said, I am the resurrection and the life. He that exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life - John 11:25. Imagine the joy of those who saw the resurrection of Jesus good friend Lazerus. So I ask here that if Lazerus had gone to a better spiritual life, then would it not have been a dis-service to Lazerus that Jesus raised him up from the sleep and more or less, returned him to the earthly world. We read the number 144,000, what does this mean? I believe it means that a limited number of men and women who did not defile themselves on earth or repented will actually be the group that rises up immediately to rule with Jesus in Heaven.As kings and priests with Jesus, they will share in the undoing of all the effects of death that mankind got from Adam. Here is some scriptures to back this up: Romans 5:12 Rev. 5:9, 10, Rev 7:4 Rev. 14:1. God will give each of these ones a spirit body so they can live in Heaven. 1Corinthians 15:35, 38, 42-45 and 1Peter 3:18. What happens then to the rest of us who exercised faith in Jesus as the Messiah? We read about the different flocks of sheep of God's chosen ones. By far the majority who have died will be resurrected to an earthly paradise. Psalm 37:11, 29 Matt 6:10. When Jesus was being tortured to death the man dying next to him who obviously was hanging there for defiling something was even promised from Jesus Luke 23:42-43 You will be with me in paradise. I know these views are my opinions from what I gather in my study of the Bible and I hope that they do not offend anyone. These are simply my opinions and I certainly do not know everything nor does any human obviously. Sorry about my previous spelling errors, I am typing in the front seat of my car in between work and submitting the data via Cell Phone. Blessings and hope of salvation to all.

 
Bandit said:
Please be careful & considerate with things like this Path.
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Sorry, I think I wasn't being clear. I was saying it doesn't matter to me, in my belief structure, whether Eve was a literal woman or a symbolic mother of humanity. I know it matters to lots of other people, which is OK. I wasn't trying to imply it doesn't or shouldn't matter for them. Again, I apologize for the lack of clarity.

My point was, either way, we agree the same thing happened- humans messed up and now we're dealing with the consequences of generations upon generations of folks not choosing God's will over their own desires.
 
you are track with these things & my biggest suggestion is to keep the order of events in the back of your mind & leave room to expound on them & sometimes we have to shift the order of events around to makes sure we have them in the proper order.

Now, I dont think Jesus is Michael, but if you do, then you should be allowed to believe that.
I do believe there is a hell, because Jesus said he has the keys to hell death & the grave & he won the victory over it. But here again we are looking at 3 different defintions of hell & when & where it is used & what it is pertaining to.

also keep in mind the order of events concerning satan. the bible does not always lay everything out in perfect order of the way it happened.

it is a big mystery:)

i will be away for awhile, because I am religioned out:) & have to get back & focus on the real world of work.
but there are some real good people here to discuss with you & may Jesus keep you in His love & mercy, so that we may dwell in His tabernacle all the days of our lives.
 
We did hear about Hell in the Bible, but I do believe we return to dust if we are not raised up or one of the anointed class. I just have a hard time believing those that are not raised up are going to spend eternity burning in a fiery Hell and will have another fate different from Adam returning to dust. I think the references in the Bible about Hell refer to the fiery pits where trash was burned around the time of Sodom and is not the place where the wicked go to burn. I really do not know if Michael is the Archangel or the symbolism in Revelations refers to Jesus. I have heard both arguments and cannot gain enough facts from the Bible to make a determination other then the following. It would seem appropriate that it was Jesus who hurled satan from Heaven. I mentioned Michael in Revelation 12:7 that uses symbolism and refers to Jesus in several different references (the Mightly One,Lamp of God ect.) in addition to his name. Daniel Chapter 12:1 ties to the OT reference to Michael (the Archangel) as the “Great Prince” and some recognize the symbolism that Jesus, “Prince of Princes” is referring to Jesus in song and MAY actually be Jesus rather then Michael. Revelations is sometimes hard to figure out if they are using symbolism. Since we are not given enough facts in the Bible to determine this I would be more interested in hearing other thoughts about what happens after you die. Is there more then one class that believers go to after death, spiritual and the class that live in an earthly paradise, similar to what was afforded to Adam and Eve and if God will make that happen, that is eternal life in an earthly paradis, since it didn’t work out the first go around. I am still in my car in a parking lot a little bit out of San Francisco on work. I will check any responses tomorrow and am very interested in learning from you and others about what you think about the new Heaven and new Earth. I find that most people I talk to believe that the after life is entirely spiritual. Also, the original everlasting life concept that was afforded to Adam and Eve and new Earth mentioned in the Bible has me questioning my original beliefs I have had for many years and I do believe in the former now and have for some time. I do not know all the answers are am more interested in how others think about this. Blessings...

 
Kindest Regards, all, and especially path of one!

I don't mind that my days here are short and I'm going to meet death. It will release me to my Creator.
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I agree with you. I tell my friends and family to throw a party for me, I'm outta here and gone home to be with my Father!

I believe the Garden of Eden is a symbol for a time when humans were not separated from God and lived in harmony with all Creation...I believe the Garden of Eden refers to a state of being at one with God and all Creation, not a literally paradise on earth (though the result of this state would be paradise).
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Rather than go back to your previous post, this will do.

I find myself in agreement, philosophically, with (trying to live in) harmony with nature. Especially as a child, I was able to commune with creatures great and small. Still do, but to a lesser degree.

But then reality sets in. For example, right now I am struggling with the worst infestation of fleas I have ever seen. I have tried to make my space on my property as non-intrusive as I could be. I have no lawn for instance, I encourage the native wildflowers and whatever else pops up that seems ornamental and appropriate. But no matter, my property always looks like a mess. And I have had to deal, harshly at times, with "nature" encroaching on my living space. I hate that I have to resort to chemical warfare against the fleas, but at this moment it is them or me. Previously it was the wild grape vines (non-bearing, already tried pruning and cultivating). I still struggle with the sand spurs and spanish needles, a yearly thing.

I am all for "tending" the garden, I don't believe in wholesale destruction. But I still have to find that correct balance so that I am not run out of my home. So yes, philosophically I agree with tending nature and allowing her place and space. But not at the expense of my own requirements, and I keep my needs to a minimum.
 
About the New Heaven and New Earth, I haven't made any serious heads or tails of the matter. As I recall, this is after the final judgement, in which case the mystery will male itself known in due time. If instead it is reference to the Millenial Reign, I have heard of two main lines of thought. One says we will be here in a spirit body, the other in flesh. Time will tell. Sorry if that is not much help, but this is a vague subject in the Bible with little reference to go by.

As for suffering, perhaps I am ignorant and run the risk of offense (which is not intended), but I think suffering is over-rated. The message of Jesus is not suffering, it is love. I fail to see how suffering brings us any closer to God. I really don't think God intends for us to suffer, or that our deliberate suffering of our own making brings us any closer to God. Suffering will happen, to that much I can agree, it is something we simply have to bear in this life. But it is something we can choose to take with a smile on our face and keep on keepin' on, or we let it overwhelm us. Perhaps that is how some deal with suffering, convincing themselves they are somehow doing God a service, I don't know. But I fail to see the logic or the loving spirit in dwelling on one's suffering. At least, that is how I see it. My apologies if I cause any offense.
 
That which does not kill you makes you stronger...though not neccessarily wiser. ;)


v/r

Q
 
You guys have been the nicest on any religious fourms I have visited. I am not a big poster, but really got into it here because of the Christian love here...thanks...Love...Love is awesome. Since a lot is not known about the new Heaven and new Earth, I think it is a big part of the Bible and much of Revelations focuses aroung that topic. It is not that we should suffer for God that I am stressing in my post, it is that the only difference I feel between the new Earth and the Earth today is that "suffering" will be no more and our tears will be wiped away. Love is also physical and imagine having that kind of love continue on an everlasting path, that we can enjoy with our loving partners for ages indefinate. Yes, have our senses and live in a perfect world God made for us. To know Jesus, Moses, Noah and John. Love is what Path to One pointed out in being in harmony with God's creation animals and nature (I re-read what path to one posted and it is amazing her wisdom and thought process). Bandit is full of Christian Brotherly love and a great guy. Love is how you welcomed me Juan, right after I put up my first post here and welcomed me and let me know not to come on the attack like one of the disciples would have shared with one another. It is what Christians have to share on a common ground that many without faith fall short of. Love is how you all welcomed me even though I said some things that you probably disageed with. I am a stranger, someone with long posts (thank you for taking the time to read them). But is it really ALL just about love? Did the merchants all love Jesus when he knocked over the Money Changers coins in front of the Temples in Jerusalem John 2:15. Does someone who shows love to their neighbor, but fails to give love and praise to God's name receive His favor? No. However love is powerful and it says in 1John 4:8 that he that does not love has not come to know God, because God is love. Love is a feeling of warm personal attachment. Man is not made to just exist but to enjoy eating, to delight in viewing the color and beauty of creation, to enjoy animals as well as the company of his fellowmen and to find pleasure in the countless other delights of living ps 139:14, 17, 18. As the apostle John wrote wrote, "as for us, we love because he loved us first 1John 4:19. Jesus' love is complete, perfect Eph 3:19 Here is the main teaching of Jesus, "I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you, that you also love one another John 13:34. Love does not rejoice over unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth. Thanks for your time and sharing of Scriptures. Bless God, tommy

 
tommy said:
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We did hear about Hell in the Bible, but I do believe we return to dust if we are not raised up or one of the anointed class. I just have a hard time believing those that are not raised up are going to spend eternity burning in a fiery Hell and will have another fate different from Adam returning to dust.
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it is my personal belief that hell is the complete separation from God. whether it is a literal fiery pit of damnation i do not know, but i believe the key to understanding hell is that it will be the knowledge of His existence, yet the inability to dwell with Him in spirit. We here on earth are separated from God in spirit, but path of one hit on a good point, that we can return to that state of being with Him, or at least put ourselves on the path of returning to that state. that is what gives us christians joy. yet however delightful it is to know that we are on a way there, this is not where our duty as Christians ends. God requires more of us, to do His will, in all things that we do to glorify His name. for those who know Him, imagine what it would be like if you also knew that you were completely out of his view, that no part of Him was With you! what a hell that would be.
In regards to 'dust to dust', i believe that is in reference to these vessels we spend our earthly days in. our soul is created by God and i do not believe our soul came from the dust. Our soul came from the Holy Spirit, and gives these vessels life. without the presence of the soul the bodies will fall and return to the dust out of which they were formed.
consider this... if you take the 'so shall you return to dust' line literally, then upon a woman's death does she become a man's rib if she does not go to be With God? just a thought.
and these are, as always, nothing more than my humble opinions anyway...
 
juantoo3 said:
...
...I think suffering is over-rated. The message of Jesus is not suffering, it is love. I fail to see how suffering brings us any closer to God. I really don't think God intends for us to suffer, or that our deliberate suffering of our own making brings us any closer to God.
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wow... i had just typed up a reply and my mouse has a button that i sometimes hit on accident that the computer interprets as me wanting to go back to the last page i was at. so then when i hit forward again everything i had typed is gone. my computer is about to learn a lesson or two in suffering! haha :p

it is my belief that suffering can bring people closer to God. in that i think people who suffer a great deal often see God out of necessity. if we reach that point, and then make a decision to seek Him out, then our suffering brought us closer to Him. however this is different from dwelling in it. and i completely agree that suffering is over-rated.

suffering for the sake of suffering is, in my humble opinion, a cop-out. it is so much easier for us to hurt ourselves 'for God' then it is to get out there and do His will for us. we are not taught to sit alone and love God. that is not Love, and God IS Love. we are taught that we should discern His Will for us, and get to it! we should shine the light of God, reflect it on others in our actions and our words. that is Love.

suffering is, however, part of God's plan for us at times. sometimes we need some suffering in our lives to remind us of the Source of our Joy. sometimes we need to suffer and get back to basics because we have lost our way. sometimes we need to remember that it is our duty to make our will His Will, and there are many things we could be doing that we aren't because it does not coincide with our will. some suffering can bring back the focus at times. but we shouldn't dwell in our suffering thinking it is bringing us closer to God. it can simply help to get us back to a place where we are bringing ourselves closer to Him by doing His Will for us.

i hope i'm being clear here. if not oh well, that's the best i can do right now and i hate re-typing things that have been lost anyway. haha, frustration...
also my intention here is not to preach, rather to express my thoughts on suffering with some *however slight* degree of clarity.
Peace and Love
 
JonMarc, you have convinced me that I am not entirely right in my comment there is no hell. Way to go and very thoughtful too. It is where you can't get back and different then the New Earth and New Heaven where either you go in a spiritial or physical sense. We don't know the answer but as I feel I am maturing in life, I am leaning towards the New Earth being a physical thing where you have senses for one reason as a vision of things to come. Jesus was empowered to raise Lazerus and restore his senses. Is Lazerus the only one in God's creation that this is going to happen to. If it is, it makes Lazerus very unique. Highly unlikely! John Lennon is a spirit now who is immortal and brought peace to many. These words become clearer to me as I am growing older.

Imagine there's no Heaven. It's easy if you try. No Hell below us. Above us only sky. Imagine all the people living for today. Imagine there's no countries. It isn't hard to do. Nothing to kill or die for and no religion too. Imagine all the people living in peace. You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one. I hope someday you'll join us and the world will live as one. Imagine no possessions, I wonder if you can. No need for greed or hunger. A brotherhood (and sisterhood) of man. Imagine all the people sharing all the world....:D
 
Love that song... :)

Juan- I too agree that suffering isn't what Christ was about. But I do think that suffering can bring us closer to God, in two ways- first, that in suffering we are prompted to lean ever more on God, and we find God manifest in more material ways (at least, I have- nothing like being in severe physical pain and praying your way out of it). Second, and I think even more importantly, because there is suffering, we are called in love to follow Christ's example and alleviate the suffering of others. The suffering of humanity often brings out the best in everyone. Crisis situations cause sudden unity, compassion, and loving work to ensue. Everyone starts praying more. It is rare that a person can have everything they want on earth, be happy, and still find God- "it easier for a camel to go through an eye of a needle, than a rich man to enter heaven." I do think suffering is part of God's temporary plan for us, and I think part of the lesson is that it is ephemeral. And as for the fleas and nature- part of the equation is tending! And of course, we are part of nature too, and deserve to live without being in itchy spasms! :p I always ask the bug infestations to leave first, and sometimes they do (especially spiders, for some reason they seem to listen more). And if it's individual bugs I'll just catch them and release them outside. But if they ignore me or will be dangerous to my animals or me, they do get the final boot. After all, it's all about balance. :)

Tommy- thanks for the bit on love. I, too, find that there is a lot of love and Christian support here, even though we often don't all agree! It's like a virtual Bible study a bit for me- I love the fellowship. I would put forth that God is all about love, and the scene with the money changers is no exception. God loves us enough to discipline us, and to want us to grow spiritually (and otherwise). It isn't just a sappy, indulgent love. It is a watchful concern, a deep nurturing... and sometimes that requires events that seem to us, at the time, not very comfortable. Like pruning a rose bush... it results in more blooms, but requires discomfort.
 
I think that God allows suffering to occur becuase there is a greater purpose. We as children got punished so we wouldnt misbehave. We learned from our mistakes and never made them again.

I view suffering this way: God to humans is like a human to a bear. If someone saw a bear trapped in a bear trap, he may try to help it. In order to release the bear the human may have to push it further into the trap to loosen it . The bear, however, thinks that the human is trying to hurt it and retaliates. Some people, like the bear, become angry with god for some of his/her misfortunes and retaliate.
 
believer142 said:
I think that God allows suffering to occur becuase there is a greater purpose. We as children got punished so we wouldnt misbehave. We learned from our mistakes and never made them again.

I view suffering this way: God to humans is like a human to a bear. If someone saw a bear trapped in a bear trap, he may try to help it. In order to release the bear the human may have to push it further into the trap to loosen it . The bear, however, thinks that the human is trying to hurt it and retaliates. Some people, like the bear, become angry with god for some of his/her misfortunes and retaliate.
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I'd substitute the "bear" for a child, and the "human" for a good parent. ;)

v/r

Q
 
My perspective (I'm Muslim) :

Everything except the creator God (Almighty and Exalted is He) is perishing. Everyone will taste death. Death is not a punishment but a door to the next eternal life. God tests us with many trails and tribulations sometimes this maybe :

1. A punishment for going outside his set laws
2. A test to see if we are loyal in our faith in good and bad times
3. A reminder of our weakness and helplessness when we become arrogant

However the majority of suffering is caused by mankind to each other. Because they no longer follow divine guidence. Just like a mother who warns her child out of love, not to do things that will harm it's self. God has laid down so many rules, which if followed keep mankind from destroying temselves and others.

But humans are arrogant and weak, and they sometimes disobey or forget, and so create harm for each other.

For believers no harm touches them but a sin is erased. So those who are believers but very sinful will more than like suffer as a cleansing before the next world.

However belief in God's mercy is always the rope by which people in suffering hold onto, knowing that for God forgiveness is nothing to him, as he says:

"Son of Adam! If your sins were to reach the limits of the sky, and then you seek My forgiveness, I shall forgive you, and I do not care. Son of Adam! If you will bring sins equal in volume to the earth and then you meet Me (on the day of Judgment) in the state that you would not have suggested partners unto Me, I shall give you in return forgiveness equal to the volume of the earth."

Peace
 
Salim Syed said:
My perspective (I'm Muslim) :

Everything except the creator God (Almighty and Exalted is He) is perishing. Everyone will taste death. Death is not a punishment but a door to the next eternal life. God tests us with many trails and tribulations sometimes this maybe :

1. A punishment for going outside his set laws
2. A test to see if we are loyal in our faith in good and bad times
3. A reminder of our weakness and helplessness when we become arrogant

However the majority of suffering is caused by mankind to each other. Because they no longer follow divine guidence. Just like a mother who warns her child out of love, not to do things that will harm it's self. God has laid down so many rules, which if followed keep mankind from destroying temselves and others.

But humans are arrogant and weak, and they sometimes disobey or forget, and so create harm for each other.

For believers no harm touches them but a sin is erased. So those who are believers but very sinful will more than like suffer as a cleansing before the next world.

However belief in God's mercy is always the rope by which people in suffering hold onto, knowing that for God forgiveness is nothing to him, as he says:

"Son of Adam! If your sins were to reach the limits of the sky, and then you seek My forgiveness, I shall forgive you, and I do not care. Son of Adam! If you will bring sins equal in volume to the earth and then you meet Me (on the day of Judgment) in the state that you would not have suggested partners unto Me, I shall give you in return forgiveness equal to the volume of the earth."

Peace
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Not far off from Christ's teachings my friend. Not far off at all...;)

Only difference is that Jesus forgives now, not at the end. And Jesus want to utilize your availability now, to help others.

You remind me of Paul...strong of will, strong of concsience...asking questions. Cool ;)

v/r

Q
 
"Congratulations to the person who has washed his sins with repentance: and has retracted from mistakes before the return (to God) and who has raced to the possible before it became impossible."God, the Exalted and Glorious, stretches out His Hand during the night so that the people repent for the fault committed from dawn till dusk and He stretches out His Hand during the day so that the people may repent for the fault committed from dusk to dawn (He would accept repentance) before the sun rises in the west (before the Day of Resurrection).

Said the Prophet on whom be peace: "Says God, 'He who knows (and believes) that I forgive all sins, then I do forgive all his sins, and do not care - so long as he does not suggest partners unto Me." And the rule will be applied (continues the Prophet ) in the Hereafter."

Praise be to God Lord of the worlds, who even though He has power over all things, is the Most Merciful or those who can show Mercy.

All we have to do is ask forgiveness and it is given.....
 
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