in the beginning....
- Thread starter dayaa
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bananabrain
awkward squadnik
give me a "for instance" and i'll explain the context. naturally, this question has been the subject of much discussion.
b'shalom
bananabrain
b'shalom
bananabrain
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
Not meaning to butt in on this thread but I saw it and I had the same question about these two sections in Genesis..Im not sure if these were the ones Dayaa was referring to or not.
Genesis 3:8-10
8 They heard the voice of ADONAI, God, walking in the garden at the time of the evening breeze, so the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of ADONAI, God, among the trees in the garden.
9 ADONAI, God, called to the man, "Where are you?" 10 He answered, "I heard your voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked, so I hid myself."
Genesis 18
1 ADONAI appeared to Avraham by the oaks of Mamre as he sat at the entrance to the tent during the heat of the day. 2 He raised his eyes and looked, and there in front of him stood three men. On seeing them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, prostrated himself on the ground, 3 and said, "My lord, if I have found favor in your sight, please don't leave your servant. 4 Please let me send for some water, so that you can wash your feet; then rest under the tree, 5 and I will bring a piece of bread. Now that you have come to your servant, refresh yourselves before going on.""Very well," they replied, "do what you have said." 6 Avraham hurried into the tent to Sarah and said, "Quickly, three measures of the best flour! Knead it and make cakes." 7 Avraham ran to the herd, took a good, tender calf and gave it to the servant, who hurried to prepare it. 8 Then he took curds, milk and the calf which he had prepared, and set it all before the men; and he stood by them under the tree as they ate.
9 They said to him, "Where is Sarah your wife?" He said, "There, in the tent." 10 He said, "I will certainly return to you around this time next year, and Sarah your wife will have a son."Sarah heard him from the entrance of the tent, behind him. 11 Avraham and Sarah were old, advanced in years; Sarah was past the age of childbearing. 12 So Sarah laughed to herself, thinking, "I am old, and so is my lord; am I to have pleasure again?" 13 ADONAI said to Avraham, "Why did Sarah laugh and ask, 'Am I really going to bear a child when I am so old?' 14 Is anything too hard for ADONAI? At the time set for it, at this season next year, I will return to you; and Sarah will have a son." 15 Sarah denied it, saying, "I didn't either laugh," because she was afraid. He said, "Not so - you did laugh."
16 The men set out from there and looked over toward S'dom, and Avraham went with them to see them on their way. 17 ADONAI said, "Should I hide from Avraham what I am about to do, 18 inasmuch as Avraham is sure to become a great and strong nation, and all the nations of the earth will be blessed by him? 19 For I have made myself known to him, so that he will give orders to his children and to his household after him to keep the way of ADONAI and to do what is right and just, so that ADONAI may bring about for Avraham what he has promised him." 20 ADONAI said, "The outcry against S'dom and 'Amora is so great and their sin so serious 21 that I will now go down and see whether their deeds warrant the outcry that has reached me; if not, I will know." 22 The men turned away from there and went toward S'dom, but Avraham remained standing before ADONAI.
23 Avraham approached and said, "Will you actually sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 Maybe there are fifty righteous people in the city; will you actually sweep the place away, and not forgive it for the sake of the fifty righteous who are there? 25 Far be it from you to do such a thing - to kill the righteous along with the wicked, so that the righteous and the wicked are treated alike! Far be it from you! Shouldn't the judge of all the earth do what is just?" 26 ADONAI said, "If I find in S'dom fifty who are righteous, then I will forgive the whole place for their sake." 27 Avraham answered, "Here now, I, who am but dust and ashes, have taken it upon myself to speak to Adonai. 28 What if there are five less than fifty righteous?"He said, "I won't destroy it if I find forty-five there." 29 He spoke to him yet again: "What if forty are found there?" He said, "For the sake of the forty I won't do it." 30 He said, "I hope Adonai won't be angry if I speak. What if thirty are found there?" He said, "I won't do it if I find thirty there." 31 He said, "Here now, I have taken it upon myself to speak to Adonai. What if twenty are found there?" He said, "For the sake of the twenty I won't destroy it." 32 He said, "I hope Adonai won't be angry if I speak just once more. What if ten are found there?" He said, "For the sake of the ten I won't destroy it." 33 ADONAI went on his way as soon as he had finished speaking to Avraham, and Avraham returned to his place.
Genesis 3:8-10
8 They heard the voice of ADONAI, God, walking in the garden at the time of the evening breeze, so the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of ADONAI, God, among the trees in the garden.
9 ADONAI, God, called to the man, "Where are you?" 10 He answered, "I heard your voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked, so I hid myself."
Genesis 18
1 ADONAI appeared to Avraham by the oaks of Mamre as he sat at the entrance to the tent during the heat of the day. 2 He raised his eyes and looked, and there in front of him stood three men. On seeing them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, prostrated himself on the ground, 3 and said, "My lord, if I have found favor in your sight, please don't leave your servant. 4 Please let me send for some water, so that you can wash your feet; then rest under the tree, 5 and I will bring a piece of bread. Now that you have come to your servant, refresh yourselves before going on.""Very well," they replied, "do what you have said." 6 Avraham hurried into the tent to Sarah and said, "Quickly, three measures of the best flour! Knead it and make cakes." 7 Avraham ran to the herd, took a good, tender calf and gave it to the servant, who hurried to prepare it. 8 Then he took curds, milk and the calf which he had prepared, and set it all before the men; and he stood by them under the tree as they ate.
9 They said to him, "Where is Sarah your wife?" He said, "There, in the tent." 10 He said, "I will certainly return to you around this time next year, and Sarah your wife will have a son."Sarah heard him from the entrance of the tent, behind him. 11 Avraham and Sarah were old, advanced in years; Sarah was past the age of childbearing. 12 So Sarah laughed to herself, thinking, "I am old, and so is my lord; am I to have pleasure again?" 13 ADONAI said to Avraham, "Why did Sarah laugh and ask, 'Am I really going to bear a child when I am so old?' 14 Is anything too hard for ADONAI? At the time set for it, at this season next year, I will return to you; and Sarah will have a son." 15 Sarah denied it, saying, "I didn't either laugh," because she was afraid. He said, "Not so - you did laugh."
16 The men set out from there and looked over toward S'dom, and Avraham went with them to see them on their way. 17 ADONAI said, "Should I hide from Avraham what I am about to do, 18 inasmuch as Avraham is sure to become a great and strong nation, and all the nations of the earth will be blessed by him? 19 For I have made myself known to him, so that he will give orders to his children and to his household after him to keep the way of ADONAI and to do what is right and just, so that ADONAI may bring about for Avraham what he has promised him." 20 ADONAI said, "The outcry against S'dom and 'Amora is so great and their sin so serious 21 that I will now go down and see whether their deeds warrant the outcry that has reached me; if not, I will know." 22 The men turned away from there and went toward S'dom, but Avraham remained standing before ADONAI.
23 Avraham approached and said, "Will you actually sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 Maybe there are fifty righteous people in the city; will you actually sweep the place away, and not forgive it for the sake of the fifty righteous who are there? 25 Far be it from you to do such a thing - to kill the righteous along with the wicked, so that the righteous and the wicked are treated alike! Far be it from you! Shouldn't the judge of all the earth do what is just?" 26 ADONAI said, "If I find in S'dom fifty who are righteous, then I will forgive the whole place for their sake." 27 Avraham answered, "Here now, I, who am but dust and ashes, have taken it upon myself to speak to Adonai. 28 What if there are five less than fifty righteous?"He said, "I won't destroy it if I find forty-five there." 29 He spoke to him yet again: "What if forty are found there?" He said, "For the sake of the forty I won't do it." 30 He said, "I hope Adonai won't be angry if I speak. What if thirty are found there?" He said, "I won't do it if I find thirty there." 31 He said, "Here now, I have taken it upon myself to speak to Adonai. What if twenty are found there?" He said, "For the sake of the twenty I won't destroy it." 32 He said, "I hope Adonai won't be angry if I speak just once more. What if ten are found there?" He said, "For the sake of the ten I won't destroy it." 33 ADONAI went on his way as soon as he had finished speaking to Avraham, and Avraham returned to his place.
bananabrain
awkward squadnik
OK - for a start, the precise way a Divine interaction or prophetic episode is described is very relevant. when it says that G!D appeared to someone, this is not a literal appearance, for "no-one may see Me and live". the three blokes appearing to abraham at mamre are angelic messengers, but they are directly conveying G!D's wishes, so it's "by extension" an actual appearance, although it's not G!D who's appearing. as for G!D "walking in the garden", this probably refers to the Divine Presence, the Shechinah - bear in mind that this isn't an actual garden as we understand it, but a cosmic structure, so it's not actually a problem unless you take everything literally.
in genesis, when G!D "breathes" life into adam, this phraseology is used to teach us certain things about the relationship between G!D and the different levels of the soul. G!D is compared to a glassblower - the glassblower has an intention to blow the glass, the breath itself is exhaled from the lungs and comes to rest in the vessel itself, while shaping the vessel on its way.
this example is by way of explaining that whenever anthropomorphisms are used in the Torah, this is because of some aspect of how *we ourselves* perceive the anthropomorphism concerned, not telling us anything specific about the actual inner nature of the Divine. for example, when the magicians in egypt say to pharaoh that the ten plagues are the "finger of G!D", we understand this to be a *measurement* of severity - therefore when the "hand of G!D" is mentioned later at the sea, we understand this to be a five-times-more severe bit of severity, or, in other words, implying fifty other plagues. in the "song at the sea", G!D's nostrils are mentioned. obviously this is not meant to imply G!D actually having nostrils, so therefore the word is being used to describe an active *effect*. in this case, the active effect of nostrils is breath, which is shown by the movement of the sea - it's an indirect way of describing G!D acting in history.
b'shalom
bananabrain
in genesis, when G!D "breathes" life into adam, this phraseology is used to teach us certain things about the relationship between G!D and the different levels of the soul. G!D is compared to a glassblower - the glassblower has an intention to blow the glass, the breath itself is exhaled from the lungs and comes to rest in the vessel itself, while shaping the vessel on its way.
this example is by way of explaining that whenever anthropomorphisms are used in the Torah, this is because of some aspect of how *we ourselves* perceive the anthropomorphism concerned, not telling us anything specific about the actual inner nature of the Divine. for example, when the magicians in egypt say to pharaoh that the ten plagues are the "finger of G!D", we understand this to be a *measurement* of severity - therefore when the "hand of G!D" is mentioned later at the sea, we understand this to be a five-times-more severe bit of severity, or, in other words, implying fifty other plagues. in the "song at the sea", G!D's nostrils are mentioned. obviously this is not meant to imply G!D actually having nostrils, so therefore the word is being used to describe an active *effect*. in this case, the active effect of nostrils is breath, which is shown by the movement of the sea - it's an indirect way of describing G!D acting in history.
b'shalom
bananabrain
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions BB. 