Monotheism, dualism, reincarnation?

Postmaster

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It's obvious that both of these beliefs can not exist at the same time? So that means someone is telling a porky? I mean for instance to some extent Christianity believes in dualism with God / Satan. So does that mean that those who believe in dualism only know part of the truth?

I also have more curious questions like, did Jesus ever talk about reincarnation? I believe that Judaism covers issue towards reincarnation and with Jesus Christ being Jewish you would think he would have talked about it. Unless he had Hellenic influence who believed in the after life and not reincarnation?


Maybe there's a system of reincarnation throughout life and each time you get closer and closer to God, until you discover a philosophy about him and then act upon you know to get to go through a final judgment?

This is just some free style discussion, to see what people can come with towards some of my unlimited curious questions.
 
Postmaster said:
It's obvious that both of these beliefs can not exist at the same time? I mean for instance to some extent Christianity believes in dualism with God / Satan.


I think they can exist at the same time in folks' minds and do. Christianity is a great example. Mainstream Christianity accepts monotheism (one God) in the form of a trinity (tritheism), with dualism (belief in two opposing forces- good and evil, God and Satan, in the universe). Paradox? Yep! But something lots wholeheartedly embrace. I've discussed my take on the trinity elsewhere, suffice it to say that God is a Great Mystery. I am monotheist, and I don't believe in a literal Satan. BUT, I believe that since we all have free will, we can choose to serve God or ourselves. When we choose to serve ourselves, to gain power for our own benefit, we are adding to the evil forces of this world. So ultimately, no dualism for me- God alone created everything and imbued everything with His power. BUT, there is a dualism in an immediate, time-encrusted sense. Right now, there's a bunch of folks in His creation that serve themselves, and thus give themselves over to evil action- both in the case of mistakes, wrongdoing, error AND also intentional cruelty and blasphemy. Us sentient beings are creating the dualism we see (although I don't think this capacity is limited to humans, hence you have "demons" or non-human evil spirits).


I also have more curious questions like, did Jesus ever talk about reincarnation? I believe that Judaism covers issue towards reincarnation and with Jesus Christ being Jewish you would think he would have talked about it.

According to the canonized Bible, no, Jesus didn't discuss reincarnation. If I remember correctly, there are snippets in non-canonized texts that claim he did. As far as I know, the Torah doesn't directly discuss reincarnation, but some Jews throughout history have believed it to be a possibility. (Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but if I remember correctly I got this information from the jewfaq website). The thing is, the Torah is more about what to do here on earth and how to relate to God than it is about the afterlife and the nature of Ultimate Reality. Judaism, and Jesus' teachings (which makes sense) is very much concerned with right action and life here and now. So it makes sense that Jesus mostly preached about right action and interpretation of the Law, and didn't say much about what happens after you die, except that you are judged by God for your conduct in life. Heaven and hell are mentioned, but I am of the crowd that after much study and prayer concluded they are not literal places but rather metaphors for states of being with/out God.


Maybe there's a system of reincarnation throughout life and each time you get closer and closer to God, until you discover a philosophy about him and then act upon you know to get to go through a final judgment?
I have a very complicated view of the afterlife, and it isn't very traditionally Christian, I must confess. It's based on a variety of my own experiences combined with studies on death and the dying process, and religious beliefs about the afterlife in numerous religions. Since I believe that heaven and hell are metaphors for a state of spiritual consciousness, I don't really have a problem believing in reincarnation as well. If you turn away from God, I think you'll be in hell (separated from God) everlasting... until you turn toward God.

I have no real answers, but I'll give you my best guess based on what I've experience so far and how I've integrated this with religious study. Basically, I think after you die, you are released from physicality and become pure spirit. You exist in a kind of energy form, but retain your defining self- your deepest self- as well as all the memories of your lives and actions. In this form you come before God, and you are laid bare. I believe that if you have turned toward God and prepared yourself to recognize Him, if you have sought a sense of spirituality and connection, you are not alone. You are with Him. I believe that in following Jesus to the best of my ability, my sins are covered by the love that unifies me and God through my following of Christ. So I can stand in God's Presence, in love, in humility but not shame, reverence but not fear. I believe that folks who aren't in Christ may still be saved by grace if they consistently sought God during their lives. I mean God in the broad sense here- as in the Divine. I don't totally know how that operates, but I have long felt deeply that this was so. Perhaps in having prepared themselves to be spiritual beings, they have also prepared themselves to meet Christ and, in that moment of recognition, confess He is Lord.

At this point, I am in heaven, because I am wholly and completely in the Presence of God.

And then what? Well, I have what seem to be memories from past lives, so I came to the conclusion that I probably have been around in a body before, and might go 'round again. I do think we get some rest for a while in God if we prepared ourselves for it (this is the Paradise, Summerlands, Norse Hel (not hell!), Otherworld concept found all over the world). I think sometimes we go 'round again to grow more spiritually, to become ever closer to God. I think sometimes we go 'round because we want to help others come closer to God, or God sends us for a purpose.

Eventually, I think when our purpose is done and we have given ourselves completely for God, we ultimately are transformed and become utterly unlike our original selves. We become unified with God in a way that only can come about through a complete metamorphosis. This is difficult to describe, and the area that I am least capable of fleshing out in my own belief system. I've had one vision of something like this, but it's really hard to express and quite truthfully, I'm still praying over it and working out what it means. I did not dissolve into nothingness, or become God myself- certainly not. But it was most similar to what Buddhists call Nirvana, or Hindus call Moksha. Moksha is perhaps more appropriate- one professor of mine explained it: like a drop of water returning to the ocean, the soul returns and joins with God. It was becoming a pure energy existing in an eternal moment- no more memory, no more self, but yet a certain energy that I knew was a completely unique creation of God, existing in a state of constantly glorifying God with all the other unique energy creations, creating an illusion of place and beauty, with God as the Presence in our unified Song.

I'm sure all that sounds crazy, especially for a follower of Jesus, but it's the best idea I have so far to account for the various ways I've experience God and heaven, and what seem to be memories of being alive before. It can be really confusing to me to sort out my visions and experiences of God and what seem to be vague recollections- are they memories or messages? Past, present (seems like an odd idea, but possible that everything is only in the present), or future? Heaven or another reality- or is what people call heaven the other reality? Always interesting and exciting, never simple.

Of course, I'm always up for revision with new information or God's guidance! I'm quite sure that I'm way off on certain things, seeing how mysterious it is.
 
Postmaster said:
It's obvious that both of these beliefs can not exist at the same time? So that means someone is telling a porky? I mean for instance to some extent Christianity believes in dualism with God / Satan. So does that mean that those who believe in dualism only know part of the truth?

I also have more curious questions like, did Jesus ever talk about reincarnation? I believe that Judaism covers issue towards reincarnation and with Jesus Christ being Jewish you would think he would have talked about it. Unless he had Hellenic influence who believed in the after life and not reincarnation?


Maybe there's a system of reincarnation throughout life and each time you get closer and closer to God, until you discover a philosophy about him and then act upon you know to get to go through a final judgment?

This is just some free style discussion, to see what people can come with towards some of my unlimited curious questions.
i think all these things can & do exist at the same time. one way or the other you end up running into a wall of either one or the other, so yes i believe they can all be present at the same time.

i think you can have the afterlife & at the same time, i see reincarnation possible also (but not the same way as in eastern thought).
if some can claim incarnation than there is not much difference there. IMO

i think there may be some reference to it there with Elijah & later we see the two witnessess in Revelations. (just thinking)

as for dualism, the devil is not that kind of force as in a demi or lesser god to me.
he was an angel made by God who communicates with God in the scriptures & i believe he is real.

so what exactly are you thinking there Postmaster?:)
 
Thanks for all your responses very much appreciated... May I add I actually feel like hell to me would be reincarnation, which would be the worst punishment know matter what form in come in, maybe earth is hell? Maybe this is why we spend so much time in conflict here and different clashing views, with physical and mental limitations, pain, suffering and illness which are all inevitable to everyone. Maybe relgion is nothing more then escapism (but doesn't mean it's false or made up).
 
Postmaster said:
May I add I actually feel like hell to me would be reincarnation, which would be the worst punishment know matter what form in come in, maybe earth is hell? Maybe this is why we spend so much time in conflict here and different clashing views, with physical and mental limitations, pain, suffering and illness which are all inevitable to everyone.
Just as I was reading through some of the responses I thought that. I do have conflicting beleifs about reincarnation though, In a way I see reincarnation as a sort of hell in itself because through reincarnation we are kept away from God as we have to keep coming back to live otehr lives. But I also beleive maybe this is the way it's meant to be, maybe we have to reincarnate in order to learn and eventualy we won't have to come back anymore.

Just a thought. :)
 
Postmaster said:
I also have more curious questions like, did Jesus ever talk about reincarnation? I believe that Judaism covers issue towards reincarnation and with Jesus Christ being Jewish you would think he would have talked about it. Unless he had Hellenic influence who believed in the after life and not reincarnation?
If I recall correctly, Josephus mentions that the Sadduccees were proponents of reincarnation, and that the Pharisees were pretty dismissive of it.
 
It's always fascinating to me to look at how different people respond to the idea of reincarnation. Some people hate the thought of coming back and having to do more and learn more while others love it. I've come to a moderate position- I'll go whereever God leads me and be glad for it. I'll thank Him no matter what. Of course, I'd prefer to stay in His Presence, but if I get there and He wants me to learn more, or help others, or even just tells me "Go" and doesn't tell me why, I'll go, and do it gladly in the service of God. There are much worse things than this life- I am physically separated from God, but not spiritually, and it is grace that has given me any union with Him at all.

Mostly, it is the actions of humans that make this life depressing for me. I love the earth, the animals, the goodness of God in nature. It's just sad what people do to each other.
 
I said:
If I recall correctly, Josephus mentions that the Sadduccees were proponents of reincarnation, and that the Pharisees were pretty dismissive of it.
right. except for i think it was the Parisees who believed it & the others did not. it is quite amazing the history of it, because some of the early church of Rome was the same way. while the ones who rejected it, killed the ones who believed it.

some of the Jews did have a belief in it, where they thought the prophets were reincarnated & i think the bible does hint toward it being a possibility.
 
foreversearching said:
Just as I was reading through some of the responses I thought that. I do have conflicting beleifs about reincarnation though, In a way I see reincarnation as a sort of hell in itself because through reincarnation we are kept away from God as we have to keep coming back to live otehr lives. But I also beleive maybe this is the way it's meant to be, maybe we have to reincarnate in order to learn and eventualy we won't have to come back anymore.

Just a thought. :)
i see it like that too because it brings up the question WHY or why would God keep doing that.
it does seem like hell to a degree because of the toil & burden.

i dont know why, except for if there is a purpose beyond what we can see & the flesh will never know.
 
path_of_one said:
It's always fascinating to me to look at how different people respond to the idea of reincarnation. Some people hate the thought of coming back and having to do more and learn more while others love it. I've come to a moderate position- I'll go whereever God leads me and be glad for it. I'll thank Him no matter what. Of course, I'd prefer to stay in His Presence, but if I get there and He wants me to learn more, or help others, or even just tells me "Go" and doesn't tell me why, I'll go, and do it gladly in the service of God. There are much worse things than this life- I am physically separated from God, but not spiritually, and it is grace that has given me any union with Him at all.

Mostly, it is the actions of humans that make this life depressing for me. I love the earth, the animals, the goodness of God in nature. It's just sad what people do to each other.
i see it like that too. i find the over all actions of humans depressing too & i really do not want to do it again. people do make earth a hell for others & we can do the same thing to ourselves.

i dont really see reincarnation as a doctrine, but more like the possibility. i dont feel like i have been here before or even that i am coming back. but i also pay attention to others in there experiences & what they say.
 
Hare Krishna

About monotheism / dualism / polytheism.

* According to the Vedic Wisdom there is one Supreme Personality of Godhead.
* There are other gods as well but more specifically they are called demigods.
* The demigods are living on the heavenly planets the place where only the very pious living entities can go.
* Being very pious themselves, the demigods are not in competition with the Supreme personality of Godhead (Vishnu or Krishna; you can call Him differently)
* The demigods are actually the faithful servants of the Supreme Lord
* They are like the ministers in the government;
* their service to the Supreme Lord is done as a devotional activity which is happily accepted by Vishnu.
* Origen knew about many different types of angels and their particular activities that correspond to the positions of demigods.
* Actually because all the demigods worship the Supreme Personality of Godhead who is one without a second this system is also a monotheistic system although to us it looks a polytheism.

God / Satan - dualism

* there is no question in the Vedic wisdom that Satan would be ever more powerful then God.
* in the Puranas - historical books of the universe, there are descriptions of big demons like Hiranyakasipu, Hiranyaksa, Ravana etc. who wanted to kill the Supreme Personality of Godhead but instead of that they were killed by Him.
* God's mercy is so great that just by killing these demons they attained liberation from the material world
* liberation, that is attained by great yogis after many, many lifetimes
* Why is this so? because they immediately became purified by the touch of the Supreme Lord.
Hare Krishna

Reincarnation

Here are few interesting links that deal with scientific exploration of reincarnation. The first link is about the research work of Dr. Ian Stenvenson, the pioneer of reincarnation research. Go to the link:

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/reincarnation01.html

Of course, there are always critics on such researches but here is another link where you can read about such bad critics.

http://www.scientificexploration.org/jse/bookreviews/11-4/edwards.html


On following link there are interesting reports or cases of remembering the past lifes.

http://neardeath.home.comcast.net/reincarnation.html
 
path-of-one, I pretty much agree with your idea of the afterlife, although I've never been able to formulate it so clearly. Thank you. I also have the awareness that I could be all wet, but I know that God knows I'm doing my best to understand, and I think God would forgive me for being wrong. If after I die, God says to me, "You know what? You were completely wrong - here's what really happens -" I believe I'm prepared to accept whatever that is, in the knowledge that whatever way the afterlife is arranged, it is the best possible way.

path_of_one said:
It was becoming a pure energy existing in an eternal moment- no more memory, no more self, but yet a certain energy that I knew was a completely unique creation of God, existing in a state of constantly glorifying God with all the other unique energy creations, creating an illusion of place and beauty, with God as the Presence in our unified Song.
This is a new idea for me, and I find it absolutely beautiful.
 
Scarlet Pimpernel said:
I also have the awareness that I could be all wet, but I know that God knows I'm doing my best to understand, and I think God would forgive me for being wrong. If after I die, God says to me, "You know what? You were completely wrong - here's what really happens -" I believe I'm prepared to accept whatever that is, in the knowledge that whatever way the afterlife is arranged, it is the best possible way.

Dear Scarlet,

I agree with this too. We can speculate and go on and on trying to put it all together now, but in the end it is turning our being completely over to God. Actually, I look forward to the better understanding, seeing clearly rather than than seeing through the glass dimly as I do in this life, as part of the peace and joy of heaven.

lunamoth
 
Few more thoughts on reincarnation

* The living entity reincarnates in this material world because of his attachment to materialistic activities and desire to enjoy material life
* material desires, activities and material enjoyment excludes God
* God is merciful so He fulfills ones desires
* He guides the soul into the next life in a suitable place where ones desires can be fulfilled
* the place for material enjoyment and continuation of material desires is only the material world

# by always doing service to God ones heart becomes purified from material desires;
# in the beginning performance of such service is not spontaneous but rather one does it as a duty keeping before himself the ultimate goal - love of God
# by performing devotional service to God one stops to perform material activities and gives up tendency to enjoy material life
# as the taste for serving God increases - love and devotion to God also increase
# this results in attachment to God and hankering to attain His association
# when one is 24h steady in serving God without any selfish motivation one attains Pure Love of God.
# such a soul is certainly taken back to the spiritual abode of God.

CONCLUSION:
** to keep material desires for enjoying material life results in rebirth in material world
** sincere endeavors to always please the Lord results in going Back into His abode

NOTE: even when one is at least 80% purified and makes sincere endeavor to always please God, God will make up the rest of 20% taking away the last impurities, and thus taking the sincere soul back His spiritual abode.
 
Scarlet Pimpernel said:
I also have the awareness that I could be all wet, but I know that God knows I'm doing my best to understand, and I think God would forgive me for being wrong. If after I die, God says to me, "You know what? You were completely wrong - here's what really happens -" I believe I'm prepared to accept whatever that is, in the knowledge that whatever way the afterlife is arranged, it is the best possible way.
This is pretty much how I see it too. I'm pretty certain there's no way I'll understand all the details in this life, and I could well be misinterpreting the bit that I do have. I truly believe that God forgives us for our little brains trying to understand this great mystery.

And that's pretty much how I will respond in the afterlife too- I'm prepared to take what God gives me, and be grateful. No doubt His infinite wisdom has prepared exactly where I am supposed to go.

As for the energy body thing, yes, it was the most beautiful vision I've ever had, and I've had some hum-dingers. :) I have the entire thing with the details written down and periodically I re-read and remember that feeling. It gives me a lot of hope. I have to admit, though, that it did make me realize how attached I am/was (working on this) to my family and pets. In prayer a few weeks after this vision I received a very clear feeling from God that it was my choice whether to hold on to my memories and go to the sort of paradise-heaven people talk about, where you reunite and all, or whether to let go of everything but God and become what I was in the vision. I didn't feel pressure from God, or shame, or anything. But I sobbed, because I am attached to a few people and pets, and to be honest, a bit attached to memories from past lives as well, the me that I once was and the loves I once had... and I can't even explain how much it rocked me to feel, very clearly, that it was my choice whether to hold on to all of that or choose to return to this place of energy and be transformed. That choice is one I have been pondering ever since, taking in prayer.

Of course, it is entirely possible (and probable) that I'm missing some pieces to the puzzle here. Or that God is using the vision to teach me a lesson about loving Him above all else, of being willing to give up everything for Him, even giving up my expectations of the afterlife. Whatever the case may be, it was beautiful (and entirely suprising) and I'm grateful.
 
Hare Krishna

It's an interesting vision and experience you had. I would have some thoughts on this if you don't mind.

* Giving up everything for the sake of attaining God is not possible.
* as you honestly admitted you still have some attachments to your pets and family
* so, what to do?
* the Vedas recommend that we develop a vision that everything and everybody belongs to God
* everything what we have, the situations we in which we find ourselves are all the mercy of God
* in this way we develop detachment from things we have and
* gratefulness to God what is the seed of devotion to God
* actually from what we can become detached if everything belongs to God?


# the Vedas recommend that we see others as part and parcels of God
# Love to others is love only when we help them to make spiritual advancement

** So, in this way one can always be God-conscious what is the cause of developing love for God.
** at one point you will find yourself that you cannot spend your time without thinking and speaking about God
** this is similar to a boy always thinking about girlfriend
** the first case is called love of God
 
path_of_one said:
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I think they can exist at the same time in folks' minds and do. Christianity is a great example. Mainstream Christianity accepts monotheism (one God) in the form of a trinity (tritheism), with dualism (belief in two opposing forces- good and evil, God and Satan, in the universe). Paradox? Yep! But something lots wholeheartedly embrace. I've discussed my take on the trinity elsewhere, suffice it to say that God is a Great Mystery. I am monotheist, and I don't believe in a literal Satan. BUT, I believe that since we all have free will, we can choose to serve God or ourselves. When we choose to serve ourselves, to gain power for our own benefit, we are adding to the evil forces of this world. So ultimately, no dualism for me- God alone created everything and imbued everything with His power. BUT, there is a dualism in an immediate, time-encrusted sense. Right now, there's a bunch of folks in His creation that serve themselves, and thus give themselves over to evil action- both in the case of mistakes, wrongdoing, error AND also intentional cruelty and blasphemy. Us sentient beings are creating the dualism we see (although I don't think this capacity is limited to humans, hence you have "demons" or non-human evil spirits).




According to the canonized Bible, no, Jesus didn't discuss reincarnation. If I remember correctly, there are snippets in non-canonized texts that claim he did. As far as I know, the Torah doesn't directly discuss reincarnation, but some Jews throughout history have believed it to be a possibility. (Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but if I remember correctly I got this information from the jewfaq website). The thing is, the Torah is more about what to do here on earth and how to relate to God than it is about the afterlife and the nature of Ultimate Reality. Judaism, and Jesus' teachings (which makes sense) is very much concerned with right action and life here and now. So it makes sense that Jesus mostly preached about right action and interpretation of the Law, and didn't say much about what happens after you die, except that you are judged by God for your conduct in life. Heaven and hell are mentioned, but I am of the crowd that after much study and prayer concluded they are not literal places but rather metaphors for states of being with/out God.



I have a very complicated view of the afterlife, and it isn't very traditionally Christian, I must confess. It's based on a variety of my own experiences combined with studies on death and the dying process, and religious beliefs about the afterlife in numerous religions. Since I believe that heaven and hell are metaphors for a state of spiritual consciousness, I don't really have a problem believing in reincarnation as well. If you turn away from God, I think you'll be in hell (separated from God) everlasting... until you turn toward God.

I have no real answers, but I'll give you my best guess based on what I've experience so far and how I've integrated this with religious study. Basically, I think after you die, you are released from physicality and become pure spirit. You exist in a kind of energy form, but retain your defining self- your deepest self- as well as all the memories of your lives and actions. In this form you come before God, and you are laid bare. I believe that if you have turned toward God and prepared yourself to recognize Him, if you have sought a sense of spirituality and connection, you are not alone. You are with Him. I believe that in following Jesus to the best of my ability, my sins are covered by the love that unifies me and God through my following of Christ. So I can stand in God's Presence, in love, in humility but not shame, reverence but not fear. I believe that folks who aren't in Christ may still be saved by grace if they consistently sought God during their lives. I mean God in the broad sense here- as in the Divine. I don't totally know how that operates, but I have long felt deeply that this was so. Perhaps in having prepared themselves to be spiritual beings, they have also prepared themselves to meet Christ and, in that moment of recognition, confess He is Lord.

At this point, I am in heaven, because I am wholly and completely in the Presence of God.

And then what? Well, I have what seem to be memories from past lives, so I came to the conclusion that I probably have been around in a body before, and might go 'round again. I do think we get some rest for a while in God if we prepared ourselves for it (this is the Paradise, Summerlands, Norse Hel (not hell!), Otherworld concept found all over the world). I think sometimes we go 'round again to grow more spiritually, to become ever closer to God. I think sometimes we go 'round because we want to help others come closer to God, or God sends us for a purpose.

Eventually, I think when our purpose is done and we have given ourselves completely for God, we ultimately are transformed and become utterly unlike our original selves. We become unified with God in a way that only can come about through a complete metamorphosis. This is difficult to describe, and the area that I am least capable of fleshing out in my own belief system. I've had one vision of something like this, but it's really hard to express and quite truthfully, I'm still praying over it and working out what it means. I did not dissolve into nothingness, or become God myself- certainly not. But it was most similar to what Buddhists call Nirvana, or Hindus call Moksha. Moksha is perhaps more appropriate- one professor of mine explained it: like a drop of water returning to the ocean, the soul returns and joins with God. It was becoming a pure energy existing in an eternal moment- no more memory, no more self, but yet a certain energy that I knew was a completely unique creation of God, existing in a state of constantly glorifying God with all the other unique energy creations, creating an illusion of place and beauty, with God as the Presence in our unified Song.

I'm sure all that sounds crazy, especially for a follower of Jesus, but it's the best idea I have so far to account for the various ways I've experience God and heaven, and what seem to be memories of being alive before. It can be really confusing to me to sort out my visions and experiences of God and what seem to be vague recollections- are they memories or messages? Past, present (seems like an odd idea, but possible that everything is only in the present), or future? Heaven or another reality- or is what people call heaven the other reality? Always interesting and exciting, never simple.

Of course, I'm always up for revision with new information or God's guidance! I'm quite sure that I'm way off on certain things, seeing how mysterious it is.
Hi Path. I always appreciate you sharing your views & experiences. I generally see it similar to you in this regard. Interesting to me, though, how different religious traditions have rather similar views re such things, albeit using different terminology. (Vajradhara could probably provide more & more accurate details than me re this)-but for instance in vajrayana buddhism such as in Bardo Throdol, ("Tibetan Book of the Dead"), there is the view that at death one's "mind" of course disolves/detaches from body and proceeds through the "bardos" of transition after death where 1 may encounter wonderful or terrifying images which essentially reflect the shape & contents of one's mind, ("the judgment" ala' Christianity). Then if one has adequately embraced/recognized the real basis to one's mind-the "Clear Light" of Mind-one's journey ends there, ("unity with God" ala Christianity?). If not, traditional buddhism speaks of the mindstream beginning the process of rebirth which traditionally may or may not be in the "human" realm. In buddhist cosmology,rebirth could even be to a "heaven" realm, (which reflects spiritual advancement but also reflective of a mindstream still adhering to some degree of "self" identity. They also traditionally view that whole process as taking 49 "Earth days." Have to admit, I'm always more interested personally in the points of commonality and intersection between traditions as opposed to stark differences. I suppose that's because to me those points of intersection may represent some fairly universal truths given their similar insights. Take care, Earl
 
Nitai said:
Hare Krishna


It's an interesting vision and experience you had. I would have some thoughts on this if you don't mind.
Not at all; I always welcome people's thoughts! And welcome to CR if I haven't yet said so!

* Giving up everything for the sake of attaining God is not possible.
* as you honestly admitted you still have some attachments to your pets and family
* the Vedas recommend that we develop a vision that everything and everybody belongs to God
* everything what we have, the situations we in which we find ourselves are all the mercy of God
* in this way we develop detachment from things we have and
* gratefulness to God what is the seed of devotion to God
* actually from what we can become detached if everything belongs to God?
I'll see if I can explain further what I meant... It's not that I felt the need to give up everything for God, but rather that it is my choice whether to love God more than all my memories, family, and pets- to be willing to be transformed into a self that no longer had these things held in her mind. Not that loving any of these was bad at all, but rather that, as in the Christian tradition, I had come to expect that I would retain all my memories and reunite with my family and pets after we all died. And yet in this vision, I returned to God in a more direct sense, and it was not that I was alone, but rather that I was utterly transformed and so the concept of my former relationship to things of this creation were no more. They were simply energy creations glorifying God in an eternal Song of creativity, as was I, unified in God. During this vision, the thought of everything I had ever known, all those I had ever loved, wasn't even in the farthest reaches of my consciousness. My entire consciousness was absorbed in God and this moment and its perfection.

I do believe everything and everyone belongs solely to God. It is a common Christian belief. I am very grateful to Him for all my blessings, and for all creation. And yet I came to the realization that there is a difference between gratefulness and detachment. I can be grateful and still want to hold on to this person, or pet, or whatever, knowing s/he is God's, but being attached to the relationship between myself and him/her- counting on that relationship remaining into eternity. Not sure if that made any sense...

** at one point you will find yourself that you cannot spend your time without thinking and speaking about God
LOL- I think I'm getting to that stage! (Much to the chagrin of my dissertation advisor, who really wishes I'd put it aside for a while and work a bit harder on immediate concerns- putting out the thesis!)
 
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