Concerning Lazarus

InLove

InLove

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Hi, and Peace to All Here--

Once before in CR, on another thread, you guys gave me some help with the manuscript I was editing. Well, I was supposed to be finished by now, but there are still some last minute things that the publisher requires, and so, while working on these, I decided to re-read the entire manuscript, not so much to catch errors in print, but for my own peace of mind concerning the content.

Since the last draft of the manuscript was completed, I have run across a conversation somewhere here in the forum, where it was suggested that Lazarus (Jesus' dear friend--not the Lazarus in the parable) was taken up just as Elijah, and did not die again after Jesus resurrected him.

In the manuscript, we have quoted the NIV study notes, which state, "Christ was the first to rise from the dead with a resurrection body...Others who were raised from the dead...were raised only to die again" (p.1816, 1995 edition).

The chapter in the manuscript where this is quoted is not arguing about Lazarus. The Lazarus example is used only to support another issue regarding God's healing. However, since I have the chance here on CR to gather input about this, I thought I would post the question: Are there Christian sources that say otherwise? If so, I would like to know of them.

Forgive me if this question has been addressed elsewhere in the forum. I am just in kind of a hurry to wrap up this project, and don't have much time to look around today.

By the way, I noticed on the other thread, that there were replies coming after I left it that I never read. So thanks, guys (Faithfulservant, Dor, and path_of_one--there might have been others, too). I would have posted this question on that thread, but I thought it might confuse the issue.

Thanks for any replies in advance--LOL--if I keep asking for your help, I will have to share my profits with you, won't I?:) Peanuts for everyone!!

InPeace,
InLove
 
Hi, it's me again--

Also, I was wondering if any of you have a hard copy of the NLT (New Living Testament)? I don't know what year publishing began--I can find all the copyright info on the Living Bible, but not on the NLT. I can document from online sources if I have to, but I would rather use the original information.

Thanks--

InPeace,
InLove
 
Hi InLove,

This seems to be a quandary. The Bible states that it is appointed unto man to only die once, yet Lazarus died and was raised (restored back to life) from death. There is no mention of whether Lazarus (the brother of Mary, not Jesus' mother), died again, or was taken up as in Elijah, and Enoch of the Old testement. Also, the arguement is as to whether Lazarus was restored to his mortal life, or received the immortal resurrection. The later would definitely contradict the requirement that Jesus be the first, however, there is still that verse claiming that appointed unto man is to only die once...

It is noted however, that Lazarus was not exactly jumping for joy at his being raised from the dead. In fact it is noted that he was dazed and confused, and had to be lead away to be cleaned up and cared for.

In my research (so far), no one wants to put the two verses together and try to explain (but I might have missed something). And mortal restoration verses Immortal resurrection doesn't quite cut the mustard when looking at the above verse about man dying only once.

Perhaps someone else here as clearer insight into this issue...

v/r

Q
 
Hey, thanks Q--I was hoping you would chime in. As a matter of fact, the segment in the manuscript kind of discusses whether Jesus did Lazarus a favor or not...let me see, I am trying to think if I can quote from the manuscript yet.

Maybe I had better not, but once it is published, I think I can. I've got to be real careful right now--I have contributed a great deal to this book, but it is not legally mine. I doubt the author would mind, but things can get sticky when it comes to copyrights (as we have seen bigtime around here recently).

Anyway, the little bit you just said helps me more than you may know.

Thanks:)

InPeace,
InLove
 
What I can add right now is that if Lazarus did go to the grave a second time, I'll bet death was not as scary.:)

Anyone got a hard copy of the NLT???

InPeace,
InLove
 
Do you mean "New Living Translation"? You said New Living Testament. Ive never heard of that one. You can find that version on Crosswalk under bible study tools.
 
Jesus conquered death on the cross and was resurrected with a glorified body. Lazarus had to die again he could not have been resurrected in a glorified body since Jesus was the first and only one to do so till His return..(1 Corinthians 15:20-23 talks about this)... so his old body was still subject to sin and corruption which he would have to die for because the wages of sin is death.

Ok so explaining what that means for Elijah and Enoch.. They still have their old bodies they are just sitting up in heaven hanging out with the Father till they get to come back and do their Fathers business at the Wailing Wall... Then they die... and resurrected in their new glorified bodies.

Thats my take on it.

Good Luck with that piece InLove :)
 
Quahom1 said:
Hi InLove,

This seems to be a quandary. The Bible states that it is appointed unto man to only die once, yet Lazarus died and was raised (restored back to life) from death. There is no mention of whether Lazarus (the brother of Mary, not Jesus' mother), died again, or was taken up as in Elijah, and Enoch of the Old testement. Also, the arguement is as to whether Lazarus was restored to his mortal life, or received the immortal resurrection. The later would definitely contradict the requirement that Jesus be the first, however, there is still that verse claiming that appointed unto man is to only die once...

It is noted however, that Lazarus was not exactly jumping for joy at his being raised from the dead. In fact it is noted that he was dazed and confused, and had to be lead away to be cleaned up and cared for.

In my research (so far), no one wants to put the two verses together and try to explain (but I might have missed something). And mortal restoration verses Immortal resurrection doesn't quite cut the mustard when looking at the above verse about man dying only once.

Perhaps someone else here as clearer insight into this issue...

v/r

Q
Click to expand...
i would think that lazarus was not jumping for joy because as far as he was concerned he had been asleep. when we are asleep we are not aware of anythingthat is what death is like being asleep with no thoughts
He said these things, and after this he said to them: "Laz´a·rus our friend has gone to rest, but I am journeying there to awaken him from sleep...john 11;11
also man does die only once , Jesus was just showing what it will be like when the resurrection takes place . but normally man does die only once .only Jesus and his corulers are resurrected with imortality , the resurrection of lazarus was not to immortality ,so he would have died . this resurrection served a purpose at the time


 
Thanks, guys--I really wish I could post some of this manuscript here right now. I think y'all would like reading it.

Yes, Faithfulservant, I did mean "Translation", not "Testament". Thanks for the info. I may need to use the electronic source, but it is better if I can document from the original hard copy. I was just trying to avoid a trip to the library.:)

Guess I'd better keep working--I'll stop by later on.

InPeace,
InLove
 
Kindest Regards, all!

Perhaps I am butting in where I do not belong, but I have reason.

...could not have been resurrected in a glorified body since Jesus was the first and only one to do so...
Click to expand...

I remembered a curious passage, and it took a little searching to find it. It seems unique to the book of Matthew, 27:52-53. At about the same time that Jesus gave up the ghost, and the Temple veil was rent in two, "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after His resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

So, if this is to be taken as Gospel (it is, after all, the Gospel of St. Matthew), then Jesus may have been the first to resurrect, but certainly not the only.

Then there's that little bit I seem to recall somewhere about Jesus spending his "three nights and days" preaching to those in the grave. Pergatory? Perhaps. Paradise? Perhaps. But I don't think the saints remained in the grave after the resurrection. I don't think they do now, either.

My two cents.
 
You missed the key words... :) the first to be resurrected into His glorified new body... He was not the first to be resurrected obviously. The new body is eternal... the old one is corrupt and must die.

Acts chapter 2 talks about how God would and did not leave Jesus's soul in Hades and His flesh did not see corruption.. so it goes to say that there was a place of the "dead".

Theres also a part in Luke where the rich man was in sheol a place of torment and saw Lazarus the leper ascend to Abrahams bosom which was called a place of comfort or paradise.. and the rich man asked Abraham to tell his brothers not to live the life that he lived so as not to end up where he was... Abraham told him no.. that his brothers had Moses and the prophets.

I will be excited to finally learn all these secrets from the Word Himself... till then I can only guess and try to imagine what all of this means.
 
Now it makes sense!

Lazarus never died a second time...he didn't have to. He was alive when Jesus died, and since he believed, he must have been one of the ones instantly transformed. Paul did say that some shall not see death, but be transformed. Thanks Faithful, mee, and Juan.

v/r

Q
 
Hmmm...not quite sure how you come to that conclusion from the posts here, but who's to say it couldn't have happened that way? Mary and Martha would have been left alone again very soon after their brother had been given back to them, but maybe....hmmmm.

InPeace,
InLove
 
Ive talked about my mom before... well another thing that happened to her was that she died.. yep she was a kid and drowned she was floating above the trees floating further and further away and looking down at herself and my grandma panicking and a man resuscitating her... Theres more to this story but I wont go into details.. lets just leave it at that my mom knew things that were said and done while she was "dead" that she couldnt possibly know.. So was she dead and come back to life?? Will she die again? Certainly. Jesus has the keys to life and death... When He resurrected He did it to glorify God.. :)
 
InLove said:
Hmmm...not quite sure how you come to that conclusion from the posts here, but who's to say it couldn't have happened that way? Mary and Martha would have been left alone again very soon after their brother had been given back to them, but maybe....hmmmm.

InPeace,
InLove
Click to expand...

Let me see if I can put my thoughts into words, so that you can see my logic.

The Bible says that man is appointed unto death only once.

Jesus is warned that His friend "Lazarus" is extremely ill, and to come quickly. Jesus taeries for four days, then comes.

Lazarus is placed in a tomb (cave), wherein the temperature reaches 125* F or more, and his body is subjected to oxygen, heat and the natural order of decay for things dead, for those four days. Decay from oxidation, and chemical breakdown of molecules is in reality a slow burning of the body (in this case). Lazarus' body would look like a balloon figure for a Thanksgiving day parade. the smell of such a corpse in decay, is unbearable. Brain tissue is reduced to liquid (it is close to that while we live). The guy's spirit is gone from the body. The body is returning to dust.

Jesus restores not only Lazarus' body, but places the spirit of the man back into his former shell. Lazarus comes from the cave, clean of body, with filthy wrappings falling from his frame, and confused and dazed. He is lead away and cleaned up, and catered to.

No mention of Lazarus' continuation of life is ever spoken of in the Bible, again. His death is not recorded (second death).

Juan points out that upon Jesus' death (the veil in the temple is wrent in twain). The inner chamber thus being exposed to all. Jesus, is a very busy Being during His time between life, death and life again. Graves open, and the saints (those that awaited the Messiah), leave the ground and appear before all. Lazarus is the living dead (remember, he is dazed and confused, and lead away to be comforted and cared for). He is not the same man as he was in life...

It is assumed that Lazarus was still breathing at the time of Christ's death and ressurection, however his was an unnatural life. Jesus called Lazarus one of His dearest friends (meaning to some that Lazarus knew the true nature of Christ).

If, as Juan points out, the graves opened and the saints left their tombs, then Lazarus left his "tomb" (restored body), as well. Since Christ arouse, then Lazarus must have been transformed instantly as promised for all those who believe, and Paul's explanation of why some do not see death makes sense.

This would also provide evedence that the Bible does not lie about Man being appointed unto death only once.

I hope i've made some sense here, because I can see the truth a plain as day...

v/r

Q
 
Faithfulservant said:
Ive talked about my mom before... well another thing that happened to her was that she died.. yep she was a kid and drowned she was floating above the trees floating further and further away and looking down at herself and my grandma panicking and a man resuscitating her... Theres more to this story but I wont go into details.. lets just leave it at that my mom knew things that were said and done while she was "dead" that she couldnt possibly know.. So was she dead and come back to life?? Will she die again? Certainly. Jesus has the keys to life and death... When He resurrected He did it to glorify God.. :)
Click to expand...

Your mother (like my kid sister - drowning victim as a young child), did not break spirit from the body (though it was close). Both observed our world from a distance, but the "chord" attaching spirit to body had not yet severed.

The body did not have a chance to decay. Near death is not the same as DEATH.

Believe you me, I have no intention of taking away from the enlightenment your mother was graced with. She just hadn't quite crossed over. Skirting the line? Definitely. One foot over? Most likely.

Ask her if she saw a chord of gray or silver...I'd be interested in that observation.;)

v/r

Q
 
Whilst this debate centers on Lazarus, one should also note the daughter of Jairus (Matthew 9, Mark 5 & Luke 8) who was raised from the dead, and also the dead man of Naim (Luke 7).

Concerning these two, the daughter was raised in response to the faith of the father, and the son raised in response to his mother - and notably when Christ healed the servant of the centurion, (Matthew 8, Luke 7) the soldier's words are now part of the Liturgy of the Eucharist in the Roman Rite:

"Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, only say the word and my soul shall be healed," (the centurion said 'my servant').

+++

A distinction need be made, as Faithfulservant points out, between 'resurrection' into this earthly body, and resurrection into an incorruptible body.

Corruption is a necessary and inescapable part of the natural order, so to be raised in the flesh incorruptible, as St Paul testifies, implies a 'supernatural body' which is not subject to the physical, but determines itself within the physical context.

Those who were raised from the dead however, were raised to the mortal state, they were 'themselves' and were raised as if from sleep.

The risen Christ however walked, talked, but far more significantly ate food with his friends - not something a ghost or spirit could do. But whilst he did not look like the bloody wreck taken down from the cross (although 'restored' his Glorified Body still bore the Wounds), neither did he look like the man who called the 12 to discipleship - because neither they, nor the Magdalene, nor anyone else recognise him, until He spoke to them (and revealed Himself) and then they knew Him immediately ... there is a great mystery here ...

Thomas
 
Thomas said:
Whilst this debate centers on Lazarus, one should also note the daughter of Jairus (Matthew 9, Mark 5 & Luke 8) who was raised from the dead, and also the dead man of Naim (Luke 7).

Concerning these two, the daughter was raised in response to the faith of the father, and the son raised in response to his mother - and notably when Christ healed the servant of the centurion, (Matthew 8, Luke 7) the soldier's words are now part of the Liturgy of the Eucharist in the Roman Rite:

"Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, only say the word and my soul shall be healed," (the centurion said 'my servant').

+++

A distinction need be made, as Faithfulservant points out, between 'resurrection' into this earthly body, and resurrection into an incorruptible body.

Corruption is a necessary and inescapable part of the natural order, so to be raised in the flesh incorruptible, as St Paul testifies, implies a 'supernatural body' which is not subject to the physical, but determines itself within the physical context.

Those who were raised from the dead however, were raised to the mortal state, they were 'themselves' and were raised as if from sleep.

The risen Christ however walked, talked, but far more significantly ate food with his friends - not something a ghost or spirit could do. But whilst he did not look like the bloody wreck taken down from the cross (although 'restored' his Glorified Body still bore the Wounds), neither did he look like the man who called the 12 to discipleship - because neither they, nor the Magdalene, nor anyone else recognise him, until He spoke to them (and revealed Himself) and then they knew Him immediately ... there is a great mystery here ...

Thomas
Click to expand...

Excellent points Thomas. However I'm not so certain that there is a great mystery, concerning Christ's arrival, after His resurrection.

I leave my home at age 18. I return at age 44, am I recognized? No, not until I speak. Then there is no small wonder at how I have changed.

My point is that death, and resurrection can do the same thing (people used to the way one was and then have to get used to the way one is).

Oh, I don't know if Faithful's Mom's personality changed between the drowning, but my sister's did. Almost like two different people in one body. One before, and a different one after.

I remember the personality of my sister before her drowning. The the personality she has now is sooooo different. Not bad, just different.

v/r

Q
 
Hi Quahom1 -

On their own merits your points are valid, but I'm not sure they apply in this instance:

1 - Christ was 'gone' for three days, not twenty-odd years,
2 - His personality was not altered by his experience.

The mystery I was hinting at is spoken of explicitly by Jean Borella in an essay on Christian gnosis. For the sake of simplicity I've edited and paraphrased the relevant text:

"What happens then, in the Resurrection of Christ?

Christ's body is still the instrument of presence in the world of bodies, but, by a total change, it is no longer ... passive and involuntary. The soul which inhabits this instrument is entirely master of it and makes use of it at will.

Christ can actualize the corporeal mode of His presence according to His own decision and as He judges good. The relationship that He entertains with the corporeal medium of His presence has been completely transformed.

Christ is no longer seen, He causes Himself to be seen. This is exactly what the Gospels teach, and which so many modern exegetes are incapable of understanding. Christ glorious is not 'above' the world of the senses, except in a symbolic sense. Simply put, He is no longer subject to the conditions of this corporeal world.

His bodily presentification becomes, then, a simple prolongation of its spiritual reality ... whereas in the state of fallen nature, it is the person's spiritual reality which is extrinsically dependent upon its bodily presence...

Whoever stops to consider this doctrine of the reversal in the relationship of the person to his corporeal medium and the consequences that this entails, will take into account the remarkable light that it casts on the significance of Christ's post-pascal appearances according to the Gospels."

From "Gnosis and Anti-Christian Gnosis" by Jean Borella
http://www.theveil.net/meta/bor/gnos_1.html

Thomas
 
I will ask my mom if she saw a chord and get back to you Q :)


I would like to point out that Christ continually glorified God with Miracles and pointed out that He did them for the purpose of glorifying God. The whole bible in fact makes the point of glorifying God... My only question is how does it glorify God to change those resurrected from the dead in the twinkling of an eye and noone witnessed it. Jesus was witnessed seen in His glorified body by many many people.


Paul was very clear in his explanations. "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." 1 Corinthians 15:52.



"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.
 
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